Guard in 5th

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**dr vompire**

really a over ambitious title for the one point i wanted to make, but it might give the thread legs.

does cameleoline become mandatory for guard in 5th? (until it gets taken away...)

I played a game of 5th last week with my space puppies and with the new LOS rules essentially everyone ends up getting 4+ cover saves.

now you give my all infiltrating infantry gaurd army of doom (TM) cameleoline, then all my squads bar the front line of lasgun only crapfantry end up with a 3++ save, beter survivability than marines... all for 8 pts a model

as for LC heavy weapon squads...

GT here i come

**Deadshane1**

Will it be mandatory? That depends on whether or not you plan on your guard exploiting the new cover save rules.

I.E.-the best guard lists will have chameleoline, the worst ones wont.

**Janthkin**

It increases survivability against non-template shooting by 1/6, and increases the cost of a squad by 1/6; on a broad basis, it's kind of a wash - you get similar benefits by buying more models. As you make your squads more expensive (heavy/special weapons), the ratio improves in favor of Cameleoline.

In the specific case, though, it can be nice for keeping key elements (HQ squads, heavy weapons teams) in the game longer (though each of those pay more per model to get the benefits). And it's great if you happen to find some 3+ cover somewhere.

**browncoat_independent**

ive played guard with carapace and for some reason ive been doing great

**Alpharius Walks**

Getting 3+ cover everywhere is so good for the points, assuming that you are using the heavy and special slots within your line squads, that it will be very common.

This is especially true with the new wound allocation system-paying the extra points to increase the odds of the guys carrying those weapons living is going to be well worth it, especially as you start to take casualties.

What I want to know is if you are in 3+ cover, you have cameleoline, and you go to ground, do you get a 1+ cover save?

**Rosicrucian**

Alpharius Walks wrote:What I want to know is if you are in 3+ cover, you have cameleoline, and you go to ground, do you get a 1+ cover save?

Sure, but you still fail it on a 1.

**Stelek**

Rosicrucian wrote:
Alpharius Walks wrote:What I want to know is if you are in 3+ cover, you have cameleoline, and you go to ground, do you get a 1+ cover save?

Sure, but you still fail it on a 1.

So you don't go to ground, and just have to live with a 2+ cover save.

Damn.

**Khorneflakes**

@Janthkin: Sorry for the nit-picking, but the surviveability of the sqaud increases by 1/3 rather than 1/6 as you pointed out, since one doesn't count die results from 4-6, as these are saved wounds in either case. So instead of loosing a trooper on a 1, 2 or 3, with cameleolin it is only 1 or 2 on a D6, 33% improvement (even w/o special weapon costs added in) for 16.6% raise in cost, pretty awesome in my book

**Kallbrand**

If you survive by 1 more on a d6 thats 1/6 better chance to survive. Its 33% better then your earlier save but thats irrelevant.

**ED209**

2+ Sv for IG .....omg that's crazy.

**covenant84**

interesting....5th seems to keep moving in my favour....starting to think this was a very good time to get back into guard

Thankyou Santa!

**Alpharius Walks**

Rosicrucian wrote:
Sure, but you still fail it on a 1.

Does 40K have any language about always failing on a 1 or saves not being able to better than 2+?

**Rosicrucian**

Actually both. The "Maximum Save" section of the 5th edition rulebook, at the end of the cover saves description, states that no save (armor, cover, or invulnerable) can ever be better than 2+ and thus always fail on a 1.

ed: edition clarity

**Corpsman_of_Krieg**

I guess I know what the latest addition to my Doctrines will be (until they're taken away).

CK

**Janthkin**

Khorneflakes wrote:@Janthkin: Sorry for the nit-picking, but the surviveability of the sqaud increases by 1/3 rather than 1/6 as you pointed out, since one doesn't count die results from 4-6, as these are saved wounds in either case. So instead of loosing a trooper on a 1, 2 or 3, with cameleolin it is only 1 or 2 on a D6, 33% improvement (even w/o special weapon costs added in) for 16.6% raise in cost, pretty awesome in my book

Observational data vs absolute values. You will make 33% more saves, but the absolute effect is that 16.67% of your men will live longer.* But then, you also have to buy it on command squads & heavy weapons teams, who pay more than 16.67% additional points for it - it's close enough to a wash that the choice is not simply "do take it" or "don't take it." And, of course, the guys in the front rank don't get the cover save offered by intervening troops.

If you survive by 1 more on a d6 thats 1/6 better chance to survive. Its 33% better then your earlier save but thats irrelevant.

I prefer the absolute perspective, yes - my (un-Cameleolined) squad used to survive 3/6 of incoming fire, and now survives 4/6 of incoming fire. If a heavy weapons squad (6 men) takes 6 cover saves without Cameleoline, 3 will likely live. With, 4 will likely live.

There's lies, damned lies, and statistics.

Really, the intervening-unit cover save is NOT a boon to the Guard. Your opponent's troops will be getting saves from your own fire, both from their units AND from yours. Sure, you can screen your Officers a bit, but you're still better off hiding them completely out of LoS (behind some solid cover, or behind a tank). I envision some rather silly uses for things like remnant squads - stand them in front of heavy weapons squads, move them to the side just enough to unscreen a majority of models, shoot your guns, and then Run the remnant squad back in front to screen a majority of the heavy weapons squad again.

*Actually, it's a little bit higher - each man that survives the first round of fire because of Cameleoline may then survive the second round as well, where before he didn't have a chance to do so. This can screen your heavy/special weapons a little longer.

**mauleed**

And none of this addresses the fact that cameoline effectively makes the unit less survivable (point for point) in hth.

I agree it's close enough to be a tossup.

**Janthkin**

mauleed wrote:And none of this addresses the fact that cameoline effectively makes the unit less survivable (point for point) in hth..

True, 'dat. Or against template weapons, for that matter.

**covenant84**

you also need to bear in mind that gw or similar rounded corner dice roll very slightly more 1's anyway due to the weight.

with the whole cover saves from your own troops, if you make the save then are the front rank of troops hit?

**Steelmage99**

Buy precision dice then. Most game stores (not hobby stores, like GW or FLGS) carry them.

Personally I can't be bothered.

**dr vompire**

mauleed wrote:And none of this addresses the fact that cameoline effectively makes the unit less survivable (point for point) in hth.

I agree it's close enough to be a tossup.

But you don't want your gaurd to survive in combat...

"No private Bond, I expect you to die..."
"...just far enough away that I get to use my freaking laser guns on them afterwards" - words of encouragement from Col. Blofeld to his skirmishing units when repulsing World Eater charge

**H.B.M.C.**

I'm just gonna re-post the Cameleoline/Carapace Armour section of my Doctrine Tactica. It sums up my more men vs better men theories.

Cameleoline & Carapace Armour
I'm going to lump these two together as they're the only two Special Equipment Doctrines you'll ever take so must be compared to one another pretty closely.

Cameleoline is an exceptional Doctrine and is truly the only worthwhile Special Equipment Doctrine. Cameleoline is a prime example of playing towards a strength rather than to a weakness. It can get a bit pricey though as you have to give it to everyone. Cameleoline also has a good place in Mechanised forces, where model counts are smaller and therefore each individual Guardsman becomes slightly more important. You'll have less squads so you'll want them to survive for longer. Guard rely on cover saves more than anything, so Cameleoline enhances that meaning that your few troops survive for longer, perfect for a Mechanised force.

Carapace Armour is extremely expensive, but does make your guys immune to Bolters. If you are playing an all Drop Troop army and you intend to Deep Strike your entire army whenever you get the chance, then Carapace Armour can come in handy, otherwise stick to Cameleoline.

Now, to compare the two:

When looking at Doctrines like Carapace Armour and even cheaper ones like Cameleoline, always weight the benefits of having 30 men with 4+ armour saves (240 points before weapons) vs having 40 men with 5+ saves (also 240 points before weapons). As I've said in the past, most Guard players will opt for the 'more men' option because it's more beneficial to have a bigger model count than expensive Guardsmen.

Another reason I don't take Carapace Armour is because, like Hardened Fighters, taking Carapace Armour is playing to a weakness rather than a strength. Guard are weak, Guard are expendable. Guard belong in cover. Carapace Armour increases their armour save when most of the time Guard are taking cover saves not armour saves. It's a 33.33% increase in the cost of the squad to make up for a weakness in the Guard army.

Now, as I said, throwing points at a weakness in the hope that the weakness will 'go away' once each Guardsman gets expensive enough is a really bad idea. What you should be doing is putting points towards your strengths. Guard, as I said above, should be in cover. Guard often rely on the strength of the cover they are in, getting nice 4+ cover saves against whatever evil nasty guns the enemy can fire against them. So, what do you do? Well, for half the cost of Carapace Armour you can give them Cameleoline. This is an example of throwing points at a strength rather than a weakness. You're in cover already, so why pay 20 points for an increased armour save? Pay half that and get an increased cover save - something you're using all the time - and make your squads even tougher.

It's also far easier to weigh up the benefits vs costs with Cameleoline than it is with Carapace Armour:

5 Squads w/Cameleoline = 350 points before weapons = 50 models with a 3+ cover save.
6 Squads w/o Cameleoline = 360 points before weapons = 60 models with a 4+ cover save.
I'll leave it to you to work out what you like more.

Carapace Armour is a Doctrine you should avoid unless you're doing that All Drop Troops army. Cameleoline is a fantastic Doctrine that should be taken if you can justify the cost. 10 points a squad will catch up to you, and if you find yourself spending over 100 points on it you must take a fresh look at your army and decide if an increased cover save is worth more than an extra 20+ men.

BYE

**ghostmaker**

Carapace is great for all Drop Troop armies

Camo line is good for a gun line army.