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-hq -
BT
BT

-hs -
Nurgle Prince w. wings, iron hide, noxious touch
Nurgle Prince w. wings, iron hide, noxious touch
Nurgle Prince w. wings, iron hide, noxious touch

- troops -
All other points for Bloodletters (8 to 10 each squad)

G

You will slaughter MEQ. It won't even be close. In any sort of tablequarters or Hold the Center mission, your Daemonzilla will plop down, laugh at any and all shooting they can spam out, and then proceed to crush marines and their support vehicles with delighted abandon.

Tau fireline will slow you down but inexorably you'll plow through their ranks. Mech Tau will shoot the crap out of you, likewise monolith-ing necrons or Decepticons.

Imperial Guard will squish beneath your hooves as you sluggishly plod through all their men and armored company will drive around helplessly as you crush tanks like tin cans.

Trifalcon Eldar will probably decimate you at range and Flying Circus will stand a good chance of chopping you down in close combat.

Nidzilla will rend you to death with the little bugs after whittling down your Zillas with shooting.

Final Conclusion: You'll destroy 4/5 Friendly Gaming Store lists but in an actual tournament you won't have enough shooting/mobility/attacks to take down the Power Lists. 80% of the time, however, against MEQ, fluffy lists, or the random new guy who bought a Macragge set and wants to test his mettle, you'll obliterate your opponent so badly that he won't even want to play anymore and you'll get called a cheesy bastard.

If I were going to make a recommendation, I'd suggest the following from my own playtesting: take some Flamers of Tzeentch, 1-2 squads of 3 just for some options against massed castle troops and to break up the weight of fire that will be directed against your DPs, especially with the nurf to Feel No Pain in 5E.

Take Skarbrand. For another 20 points or so you'll be able to re-roll all missed attacks, which will be huge with this list; since the quantity of dice you'll be throwing is so limited, you need to make it count.

Max out your Troops with minimum quantity but maximum slot occupancy. Running 6 groups of 5 'Letters is much more effective than 2 groups of 15.

Hope this helps!

It's cute. No shooting, bad. No mobility, bad.

Concentrated weakness against all kinds of fire in big demons, bad.

I think taking Nurgle and Khorne gives you resiliency and CC capability against those caught in the open, but gives you no shooting and exposes you to serious fire on your Khorne units...after all, Nurgle can't kill anything but Tau and IG in CC--and if you say you kill guard in CC like it's awesome you can do this...ugh...yeah, don't take Nurgle for anything other than tarpitting. Khorne needs Tzeentch shooting or Slaanesh utility more than they need Nurgle resilience.

A C: Daemons Prince with the Mark of Nurgle has WS/S/I 5 with T6 and 4 attacks. Even more significantly is that the aura of flies will serve as grenades, letting them make use of that high I on assaults into cover. Against anything but a Harlequin or a Genestealer they'll hit on 3s, wound on 2s ignoring armor, and will laugh at anything but a powerfist attack in close melee. With better Initiative, [relatively] low attack, and high chance to wound, Nurgle princes actually fare better against more elite opponents like Terminators or Nobs. Why would you say they can only out-melee Guard and Tau?

Their improved T characteristic actually somewhat ameliorate the Daemons' big weakness, being lots and lots of lower strength ranged attacks, requiring virtually all shooting infantry to roll 6's to wound.

I don't see how anyone can say there is a lack of mobility... I won't expound further on that.

For shooting I can add daemonic gaze to the three Nurgle DP plus the BTs can take a shooting attack as well.

G

I would really shy away from making some super expensive DPs even more super expensive. They're already costing you something like 215 points apiece. 3 S5 shots isn't really considered "adding shooting" anyhow.

actually the DPs are WS 7. Maybe throw in gaze on your DPs

sourclams wrote:A C: Daemons Prince with the Mark of Nurgle has WS/S/I 5 with T6 and 4 attacks. Even more significantly is that the aura of flies will serve as grenades, letting them make use of that high I on assaults into cover. Against anything but a Harlequin or a Genestealer they'll hit on 3s, wound on 2s ignoring armor, and will laugh at anything but a powerfist attack in close melee. With better Initiative, [relatively] low attack, and high chance to wound, Nurgle princes actually fare better against more elite opponents like Terminators or Nobs. Why would you say they can only out-melee Guard and Tau?

Their improved T characteristic actually somewhat ameliorate the Daemons' big weakness, being lots and lots of lower strength ranged attacks, requiring virtually all shooting infantry to roll 6's to wound.

Uhh what else are my heavy weapons going to fire at?

My plasmas? My meltas?

Oh sorry you said something about close combat. Gotta get into CC first.

How's this army split?

1 Nurgle, 1 BT, 2-3 BL?

Focus fire will drop the BT and the Nurgles.

Block the BL off.

Unit dies.

You shoot them dead.

Rinse and repeat.

It's pretty much how experienced players defeat demon armies.

Green Blow Fly wrote:I don't see how anyone can say there is a lack of mobility... I won't expound further on that.

For shooting I can add daemonic gaze to the three Nurgle DP plus the BTs can take a shooting attack as well.

G

Uhh how are you more mobile than any other deep strike army?

Wings on BT? What else ya got that's "mobile" given most 'mobile' armies can deal with you having 2 flying demons...so can most shooty armies.

T6 4+ invulnerable is not as hard to kill with las, plas, and melta weapons. Light weapons also give headaches.

I wouldn't call the BT shooting attack anything but humorous.

ZAP! S7 for the loss...

In the end, you have a 3+ save. That means you aren't hard to attrition to death.

Always has. And now you can't move into combat after you slaughter someone in CC?

Yeah, we playtested those rules. Now you know why I think the army sucks.

If you paint good (I seem to remember you painted well enough) I'll take the army off your hands in a couple months.

If he drops 2 BTs and 2 DPs in his first wave behind cover, then assuming LoS on everything it'd take you something like fifty plasma/lascannon/melta shots to kill off those 4 models in 1 turn of shooting.

I can't say that I've played the new Daemons "extensively", but they've definitely become my main list and although they certainly have their weaknesses to short range shooting, mech, and horde armies, I just haven't had much problem keeping my monstrous creatures alive long enough to earn their points back.

See what sourclams is saying? He is offering experience rather than your conjecture. There is a difference.

G

haha,I can see Stelek's job is to beat crap off every daemonlist with talking


but dude I think this flying Zilla list is no fun to play with ,not sure about GT ,5th ed wont protect you enough after you win a CC .

You cannot hide those 4 models in 5th edition "behind cover" GBF.

It's not conjecture, it's playtest experience.

If you believe you can, and that you really need 50 (!) shots to bring down those 4 models (wait, there are other weapons in the army other than heavy anti-tank weapons, aren't there?) well I don't think you'll find the army to be effective.

Why don't you go play it a few times, see how well it does.

I've noticed a distinct lack of veteran players running demon armies and doing so well with them they post how good the army is and it's just a misunderstood army...

Stelek is correct depending on the terrain. If you're looking at predominantly area terrain then its a shooting gallery with a nice cover save. If your local terrain is hill/wall heavy then you still have true cover lane of fire issues. But absent that the 4+ gives a nice save, but everything now gets to shoot at you.

4 Monstrous Creatures immune to ID
x4 wounds each
----------------
16 wounds to kill, at Toughness 6. Small arms versus T6 and a 3+ armor save are virtually worthless. On average, you'll need 24 bolter shots to put one (!) wound on a DP or BT.

Standing behind a building/area terrain/trees/each other/whatever = 4+ cover save (BTs are already 4+ invuln. anyhow).

Avg # of Ap3 or better "hits" to kill 16 wounds that save 50% of the time = 32. Factor in misses and T6, and it's looking like 50 might actually be a conservative number.

Add in wings on all models and you can cover 18" to assault on turn 2.

I am NOT arguing that the Daemons 'dex is uber, or even tournament competitive. It is NOT, however, the lame duck that people keep presenting them as. Check out my win/lose/draw record in the sig. I'm by no means an amazing general but I have yet to lose with my combined Khorne/Tzeentch list. Those are actual games played. It's not theoryhammer, Daemons are effective against most lists and downright abusive versus MEQ. They are NOT a tournament-winning army, unless every other guy is running the Ultramarines. They ARE an effective, fun, stand-alone army.

jfrazell wrote:Stelek is correct depending on the terrain. If you're looking at predominantly area terrain then its a shooting gallery with a nice cover save. If your local terrain is hill/wall heavy then you still have true cover lane of fire issues. But absent that the 4+ gives a nice save, but everything now gets to shoot at you.

Given that the BT's have a 3+/4+ and the DP's have a 3+/5+...one set of models get a slightly improved save against heavy weapons.

Moving on:

sourclams wrote:4 Monstrous Creatures immune to ID
x4 wounds each
----------------
16 wounds to kill, at Toughness 6. Small arms versus T6 and a 3+ armor save are virtually worthless. On average, you'll need 24 bolter shots to put one (!) wound on a DP or BT.

Standing behind a building/area terrain/trees/each other/whatever = 4+ cover save (BTs are already 4+ invuln. anyhow).

Avg # of Ap3 or better "hits" to kill 16 wounds that save 50% of the time = 32. Factor in misses and T6, and it's looking like 50 might actually be a conservative number.

Add in wings on all models and you can cover 18" to assault on turn 2.

I am NOT arguing that the Daemons 'dex is uber, or even tournament competitive. It is NOT, however, the lame duck that people keep presenting them as. Check out my win/lose/draw record in the sig. I'm by no means an amazing general but I have yet to lose with my combined Khorne/Tzeentch list. Those are actual games played. It's not theoryhammer, Daemons are effective against most lists and downright abusive versus MEQ. They are NOT a tournament-winning army, unless every other guy is running the Ultramarines. They ARE an effective, fun, stand-alone army.

You can tell everyone how effective your demons are against your friends, who I know nothing about. The reverse goes for me.

Except, you've gotten in how many games playtesting 5th edition rules? We got in dozens of games, against multiple types of each faction, under those rules. What about you? If you're talking 4th edition, great they're the uber. And the uber is running out in 4 weeks, so who cares?

I think they're utter trash. I don't know what game of 40K you play, but you don't have to put 16 wounds out.

You can reduce each of these creatures to 1 wound each, and then let them come assault. It's not like they'll be counterassaulted and vulnerable to ANY attack that hits and rolls a 6 to wound...which will at that point have a 33% chance of killing the beast. Who cares if they kill half a squad then get torn down?

ALL of these monsters are vulnerable to CC units because even with all of the BT attacks, they don't kill more than half the squad. So that's alot of attacks coming in--or...is it once again a misapplied concept you are using, that only the demon army can assault and they get all the benefits but the other army never assaults you?

I assure you, people will not assault bloodletters if they can help it. They WILL assault demon princes and greater demons, because frankly you can kill weakened versions of those after you dump ALL of your armies firepower into them.

I'm still amazed that people say 16 T6 wounds is invulnerable to an entire armies worth of shooting and assaulting. It's the best joke locally, more bad mathhammer. All of my army is defeated by FOUR monstrous creatures.

Tell me...if Nids have EIGHT of them, they get 4+ cover saves in 5th...and that army is still beaten up pretty badly despite being able to run and having a cover save they never had before....what makes your half of Nidzilla better? Is it your 4 wounds? Toughness 6? 3+ save? 4+ cover/invulnerable save? Right, it does seem like the demons get a free pass in mathhammer but the reality is quite a bit different.

Sorry for ripping you a new one, but demons do not impress anybody. Sorry to say I don't have sigs on, so I can't see the hundreds or thousands of games you've won with your demons. When you win a GT with them and face mech tau, mech eldar, flying circus necrons, nidzilla, and stealer shock....post here. I look forward to your post in 2012, when the book gets revised and demons can drop on you, charge the turn they drop, choose what drops (all the time), do not scatter, and land all at once.

Until at least some of those happen, it's a horrible list for tournament play.

For friendly play, yes it's great fun. You put your army down in dribbles, I kill it a little bit at a time.

Please note the guys I playtest with do go to GT's, and they are hoping for 2 Orks and 3 demon armies to play against.

That way, they have at least 2 games that won't be a wash.

Me, I'm hoping for an easy run and getting all 5 games as demon opponents...I don't think I can finish all 5 games in under 30 minutes each, but who knows?

Stelek let me spell it out for you... it's two Blood Thirsters and three Nurgel Daemon Princes. What you say I typically ignore for the following reasons:

1) You are a major flip flopper. Basically your word means nothing.
2) You don't know what you are talking about.
3) See (1) and (2).

Anyways I will be play testing the list tonight against guard. I will let everyone know how it goes.

G

I can't pretend to know who your gaming group is, how amazing their generalship is, or whether or not you've actually played hundreds of games with the Daemons codex.

I do know, that in friendly games with my local store using what we know about 5th ed terrain and deep striking rules, my daemons list can take on about 80% of all comers successfully. Yes, daemons lose against tourney lists. Eeeeeeeveryone knows this already and I have never once implied that they can beat mech tau, mech/flying circus eldar, or Nidzilla and in fact I have stated the exact opposite in every single post. They're not, however, as laughably sucktastic as your multiple posts imply unless the only guys you play against run mech tau, mech/flying circus, and Nidzilla.

Against every other guy, they're competent to better than competent.

GBF, I hope you do well with your fabulous list.

sourclams--that's the same everyone said about necrons, drop pod armies, etc. Once people get schooled, they'll figure out how to beat the army.

Then it'll get parked as another boring one-gimmick army.

So long as players buy and GW stays in business, who am I to argue?

Nah. You can always use it as a counts as Nids list.

Edit:Sourclams/ GBF let me be clear
I believe GDs are some nice shot sinks and they can potentially do loving amounts of damage. But V5 is potentially an obscenely shooty game until the terrain gets modified as your guys potentially have no place to hide (think V4 skimmers flying high). It can be a problem until tables are sorted out with new LOS blocking terrain.

I think there's two notions getting confused in this thread:

1. All Chaos Daemons armies bite.

I think Stelek is the only proponent of this particular theory. I've certainly had a great deal of success with some serious experimentation. It's a difficult dex to use, but rewarding, and 5th helps it out an incredible amount.

2. This army has issues:

I agree that GBF's army doesn't put enough boots on the table. To improve it while sticking to the "Daemonzilla" theme I'd suggest:

1. BT's become GUO's with just the grenades upgrade.
2. DP's become either DP's w/just Daemonic Gaze and Iron Hide, DP's w/MoT, BoT and Daemonic Gaze or Soulgrinders
3. The ~400 points saved this way go towards a trio of serious Elite units.
4. Some of the Letters are replaced with Horrors.

I didn't realize his DPs had wings. That definitely faster (but yowza expensive). You're going to have a difficulty ith monoliths, but what demon list doesn't?

Personal edification-how many BLs are we talking here? My 1850 test list has 41 + herald.

Let's do some quick math... BT is around 200 as is Nurgle DP... so that is 1000+ points.... which leaves lets say 800 points... divide that by the cost of a single BL and there you go. If they were 20 apiece that would be 40 BL.

G

Interesting. Has the poster given thought to shield walling with the demon princes (or inversely GD's). Give those bloodletters some support.

You cannot shield wall with a deep striking army that scatters.

And comes in piecemeal.

And seems to have no icons.

And will lose the shield wall after it drops.

And you cannot shield wall anyway, as everything is true LOS. You can give a 4+ cover save, but that's about it.
There are plenty of cheaper units that can do that for you...

I don't think there was a notation one way or the other on icons.

Can you not hide behind the base of a large model and avoid LOS (aka the Defiler legs argument)? Thats a Q not a statement.

I don't think they'd immediately lose the shield wall. It would come down, but everything comes down over time. You're looking at what 5MC's? If they could go down so easily Nidzilla wouldn't have been the fascinating option it has been.

If you're facing an opponent who can burn down 5 MCs in a turn in a normal game fo 40K then you're pretty much outclassed anyway.

It's basically a shell game. All MC come in on one turn followed by troops. There is no army that can burn down five MC in one turn. In fact I could simply take the fate weaver to reroll saves in place of one BT.

G

Most demon armies will bite, but you can weight it up with the randomness.

If you sort the drops and hope you are lucky you will have death on wheels 66% of the time. Ofc the other time you will be in some problems but that is the flavor here. If you actually manage to drop your heralds/GD/DP and flamers first round(close to the enemy) and get your more supporty units of horrors in 2nd you will be in a good spot, if not you are in a bit of a trouble. If you get a good 2nd turn and get about all your stuff on the table you are in a really good situation to win even against "hard" armies, even the "toptier" tournament ones.

jfrazell wrote:Can you not hide behind the base of a large model and avoid LOS (aka the Defiler legs argument)? Thats a Q not a statement.

I don't think they'd immediately lose the shield wall. It would come down, but everything comes down over time. You're looking at what 5MC's? If they could go down so easily Nidzilla wouldn't have been the fascinating option it has been.

Nidzilla starts on the table.
Nidzilla has move through cover.
Nidzilla has 8 models.
Nidzilla has shooty death.
Nidzilla can be setup in a straight line and use bases to block LOS, and in 5th you can't do that nor can demons ever setup like that when deep striking so...

Hope it makes sense why it doesn't work, and how it's different.

I have decided to exercise the IGNORE button on Stelek so keep that in mind when reading my replies in this thread.

Anyways here is my first serious crack at the proposed list:

Bloodthirster - 250
Bloodthirster - 250

3x Daemon Prince w. wings, iron hide, MoN, noxious touch - 210/630

(1,130)

10x Bloodletter (160)
10x Bloodletter (160)
10x Bloodletter (160)
15x Bloodletter (240)

Total = 1850 points
# models = 50

I have a game scheduled for tomorrow evening.

G