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So I think most people accept that Possessed CSM cost waaay too many points and their abilities are far too random for the unit to be a good choice.

At least the v5 rules help them out a tiny bit (the scout rule gets passed onto their transport vehicle if they have one and they can always 'run' if you don't take a transport), but they still just don't cut the mustard.

The thing is, I really like the idea of random powers and I think they can work if all the powers are useful and you get to know what the power is BEFORE deployment.

But just for the sake of a fun discussion, if we are sticking with the current rules for Possessed, what point value per model would make the unit a good choice without cannibalizing the rest of the list's CC units?

Right now Possessed are 26 points and compared to regular CSMs (15 pts) they get +1 Strength, Fearless, a 5+ inv save & their random ability (I don't count their +1A because they don't have a 2nd CC weapon like regular CSM have, so it's really a push on that stat).

The other similar unit types in the codex are:

*Bezerkers, who are 21 pts and compared to regular CSMs have +1WS, +1A, Fearless, Furious Charge.
*Raptors, who are 20 pts and compared to regular CSMs are jump infantry (with a 12" move).


Looking at those choices I think 21 points for a Possessed CSM is probably about right. In fact, if they were 21 points per model *and* players got to roll for their ability before deployment I think it would be a tough choice between Bezerkers and them for your CC specialist unit.


What do you think?

Yes the first step in making Possessed a decent choice would be to have them roll for their powers before deployment. That is an absolute key, in fact I wouldn't drop the price to much on them if that were the case.

I don't know about that. Look at what Bezerkers get for 21 pts.

A guaranteed +1WS, +1A, furious charge and Fearless.

I think at most, even with knowing the ability before deployment Possessed should cost 22 points.

I don't think random powers is fun. Players have shied away from every single unit in the game with "random" tied to it. Period. Nobody wants to play musical chairs with their units...might be good, might cost me the game...hmmm....

Before deployment is meaningless really. Sure, it helps for scouting but that's it.

It's a CC unit. If you focus on the CC effects...

It has a longer assault range.
It can come on from a board edge or move forward.
It gets furious charge.
It gets rending.
It gets power weapons.
It's more resilient and is more likely to arrive and stick around.

You compare it to khorne berserkers, but really you should compare it to chaos terminators.

+4 points and you have a 2+ save, 5+ invulnerable, the ability to deep strike, lots of different weapon combos, ability to shoot and engage in CC, and power weapons.

Keep in mind, there's a Chaos Terminator boxed set which didn't sell very well and needs to sell better.

Anyway I don't see any comparison between Khorne Berserkers and Possessed.

Khorne hits on 3+, wounds on 3+ and strikes @ I5 (when they charge), has more attacks, gets a 4+ cover save in 5th...and all they really lose is a 5+ invulnerable save in CC.

If, and I do mean IF, you get hit by a Khorne Beserker unit in CC...you are generally deader than a doornail.
Especially in 5th, where your whole unit is forced to pile in and take the beating.

Anyway, truth be told...you can't fix possessed. They were nerfed, and most of the flavor of Chaos was removed. No one should field possessed, even if they cost 21 points it's no contest--Raptors are better at that points level.

At least they'll get into combat.

The same thing that kills Berserkers and Possessed is what kills marines--having to take too many saves because everything is built to wound T4 and make a 3+ meaningless.

You can be as awesome as you want to be in CC, but if you cannot survive (Terminators) or get there fast (Raptors) you're toast.

Raptors are the best 20 point Chaos CC troops.
Terminators are the best 30 point Chaos CC troops.

Possessed as is that fall anywhere from 21-29 points are junk.

As soon as I can buy possessed for 21 points, and pick an ability from the list for a set amount of points...they will be worth looking at.

Rending scouts for say 32 points? Yes, sign me up.

Random crap for 26 points? Find another sucker.

It seems that in 5th edition with running and Rhinos not being as much of a deathtrap anymore that CC units like Bezerkers and Possessed (if they were the right points cost) could certainly be worthwhile units.

There *has* to be a points level where the randomness of the Possessed is worth it (even if you roll after deployment). 18 point possessed? 16 pts? Somewhere you have hit that zone and that is the proper place for them.


I think if you let Possessed pick their abilities you end up with a situation where you have only a few upgrades worth taking or you end up cannibalizing the bezerker unit and make that unit not ever worth taking compared to Possessed.

How about possessed not being able to take objectives, while berserkers can? THAT is what would make people decide berserkers over the super cool possessed that "do the same thing".

I think random or uncontrollable units are just not fun. So possessed = bad. Chaos spawn = bad. I used spawn today and I couldn't control who they moved towards because of the Mindless rule. So they chased a wave serpent the whole game.

Stupid spawn (with no save for some reason), random possessed, and lords with demon weapons that hurt themselves/leave themselves completely open 15% of the time. It all needs to go. It isn't fun or effective, it's insulting. Why bother putting units in the list if the rules are utter crap? Does GW really think we won't notice what is good and what isn't?

Not to mention Dreadnoughts that could end up shooting your own guys 1/6th of the time if you keep them anywhere near your own troops.

BYE

Nurglitch wrote:Slap them down in the middle of the board with an Icon of Chaos and grind them straight forwards. Two random results will let them close quicker, three results will let them hit really hard when they get there, and one result makes them tougher.

Combined with an Icon of Nurgle they can potentially be tougher than Plaguemarines. The bonus to Toughess conveyed by the Icon, the Feel No Pain conveyed by the Daemonkin rule, and their own Invulnerable save for those pesty Lascannons.

Combined with an Icon of Slaanesh they can put the hurt on I6- troops. The bonus to Initiative conveyed by the Icon, the Furious Charge conveyed by the Daemonkin rule, and their Invulerable save.

Combined with an Icon of Tzeentch, well, they'd be pretty Battlecannon, Demolisher Cannon, and Earthshaker Cannon resistant, as well as being able to mix things up in close combat with Power Weapon and Powerfist wielding troops with relative impunity. The bonus to their Invulnerable save from the Icon combined with Feel No Pain makes them brutally tough, and their Strength combined with Rending or Power Weapons would make them a mincing machine. And they'd be even better against stuff like Genestealers, Carnifexi, and hostile Daemon Princes.

Combined with the Mark of Khorne, well, you could have some fun. The possibility of S5 Berzerkers is nice with Furious Charge, otherwise having Rending or S5 Power Weapons would let them hit harder than Terminators 5pts more and be just as resistant to Lascannons and the like.

Basically you get an improvement on the hitting power of already excellent assault troops 50%, an improvement on the toughness of already tough troops 16.6% of the time, and the other 33.3% they start the game closer to the enemy. And you can give them Icons of Chaos, which aside from giving bonuses to the unit allow them to Deepstrike Daemons in for a massive push. A unit of Possessed with Fleet of Foot and a Champion is an ideal unit to "Daemon-bomb" and explode into a mass of Daemons, particularly if they have an Icon of Tzeentch.

From a post I wrote on using Chaos Spawn.

Nurglitch, what you said doesn't work that way.

And there are better ways of running demon bombs.

maybe a couple more points than a Berzerker, although Berzerkers have the option of their bolt pistol shot, too, which should count for something at least. And they are Troop.

and definately agree on the pre-rolled powers angle. Although another option is just to give them rending and fleet base. But the random powers are cool. KAOS!!@!

Stelek wrote:Nurglitch, what you said doesn't work that way.

And there are better ways of running demon bombs.

An impeccable counter-argument, as always...

Stelek wrote:I don't think random powers is fun. Players have shied away from every single unit in the game with "random" tied to it. Period. Nobody wants to play musical chairs with their units...might be good, might cost me the game...hmmm....

Good points Stelek, but I'd have to disagree on this comment.

Although I think the possessed are overpriced (I agree with 21 to 22 points for prior reasons mentioned), I actually like a good deal of randomness in my armies. I have two chaos dreadnoughts and Kharn the Betrayer in my 1500 point build. Yeah, it kinda blows when both the dreads turn and wipe out a 180 point squad or Kharn throws down five 1's when in a combined assault with a S5 PW. Throw in some deep striking termies or oblits and the random factors are sufficiently increased. Not to mention that we use dice, but when all of it works at once... the look on your opponents face is priceless!

I did stumble across an interesting tactic with random units. If you stick all of them together as one 'mini-force' in your army. The random effects and attention on your more tried and true forces are minimized. For example, I stick the dreads right next to each other, so that if one freaks, it shoots the other one (kinda funny when they both shoot each other ). After the first move, things get a little better with distance and general game flow. Plus people tend to go for those big sexy pieces leaving some of the more subtle units alone. I make sure I give random units really good paint jobs.

Of course, I also play orks and everything is random with those guys!

On a side note... Spending too much time planning infinite details and contingencies for a job deters me from having that same predictability in my hobby. Even in competition, I always tend to get a lot of "Good Sport" votes. Of course, I think my opponent just feels sorry for me or he was laughing hysterically as my megablasta ran hot and blew up my ork dread in a 6" radius from edge destroying nearly 30 orks!

Nurglitch wrote:

Nurglitch wrote:Slap them down in the middle of the board with an Icon of Chaos and grind them straight forwards. Two random results will let them close quicker, three results will let them hit really hard when they get there, and one result makes them tougher.

Combined with an Icon of Nurgle they can potentially be tougher than Plaguemarines. The bonus to Toughess conveyed by the Icon, the Feel No Pain conveyed by the Daemonkin rule, and their own Invulnerable save for those pesty Lascannons.

Combined with an Icon of Slaanesh they can put the hurt on I6- troops. The bonus to Initiative conveyed by the Icon, the Furious Charge conveyed by the Daemonkin rule, and their Invulerable save.

Combined with an Icon of Tzeentch, well, they'd be pretty Battlecannon, Demolisher Cannon, and Earthshaker Cannon resistant, as well as being able to mix things up in close combat with Power Weapon and Powerfist wielding troops with relative impunity. The bonus to their Invulnerable save from the Icon combined with Feel No Pain makes them brutally tough, and their Strength combined with Rending or Power Weapons would make them a mincing machine. And they'd be even better against stuff like Genestealers, Carnifexi, and hostile Daemon Princes.

Combined with the Mark of Khorne, well, you could have some fun. The possibility of S5 Berzerkers is nice with Furious Charge, otherwise having Rending or S5 Power Weapons would let them hit harder than Terminators 5pts more and be just as resistant to Lascannons and the like.

Basically you get an improvement on the hitting power of already excellent assault troops 50%, an improvement on the toughness of already tough troops 16.6% of the time, and the other 33.3% they start the game closer to the enemy. And you can give them Icons of Chaos, which aside from giving bonuses to the unit allow them to Deepstrike Daemons in for a massive push. A unit of Possessed with Fleet of Foot and a Champion is an ideal unit to "Daemon-bomb" and explode into a mass of Daemons, particularly if they have an Icon of Tzeentch.

From a post I wrote on using Chaos Spawn.

Isn't that talking about possessed, not spawn?

And daemonkin gives them feel no pain and furious charge? Where are you getting that? I must have missed it....

-Spellbound

I'm pretty against random too. Random # of attacks is alright if there's a decent base number [3+d6 is pretty good] but the 1 crippling your character that turn?

And I used dreadnoughts before with the random 1 and 6 stuff, but now that they shoot the closest thing regardless? Yeah. Not doing what you want is one thing, but doing something that's downright detrimental to your army? Ugh.

-Spellbound

Spellbound:

Quite correct. That discussion of Possessed is an extract from a post I made talking about using Chaos Spawn. My point in that post, so I recall, was to emphasize what was commonly over-looked about Spawn by iterating what was commonly over-looked about Possessed.

Also, Daemonkin, I think, is the rule whereby you roll randomly for either Scout or Fleet or Furious Charge or Rending or Power Weapons or Feel No Pain.

My point in re-posting it here is to suggest that something apparently risky is less so when stacked with other options open to Possessed and the rest of the army. It is these knock-on effects that brings up their basic cost, much like how units with access to multiple heavy weapons pay more for each individual weapon. The Daemonkin rule is basically a bonus to the basic options option to Possessed.

Something I've noticed is that no-one's applied the concept of screening to them, particularly if/when they have an Icon of Tzeentch so that they have invulnerable saves of 4+ and give the units behind them cover saves of 4+.

Oh alright, I forgot the table thing was titled daemonkin. The old rule "daemonkin" is what gave them S5 and the 5+ I save, so I thought you were thinking it gave them feel no pain and furious charge.

Forgot it was just a chance to get them.

And that's just it though - the basic problem [and it kinda goes down to the game system really] is that 2/3 of the time you'll have a unit with absolutely zero ability to ignore armour saves. No rending, no power weapons, not even a champion with one. Does an assault unit without a power weapon suck? .....kinda, yeah, really. Sure orks can manage without the powerclaw nob but they've got 20+ guys with an extra attack each on the charge and they had a shooting attack to boot. If possessed had more attacks like that, it might make them worth it.

Saying the mark of nurgle plus feel no pain makes them really tough is great and all, but there's only a 1/6 chance they'll get it.

Fleet kind of sucks in the new edition too - sure on the final turn [as in when they reach assault] they'll be able to move extra and charge, but on all the previous turns they're no different than any other infantry.

Nurglitch wrote:Spellbound:

Something I've noticed is that no-one's applied the concept of screening to them, particularly if/when they have an Icon of Tzeentch so that they have invulnerable saves of 4+ and give the units behind them cover saves of 4+.

That's because nobody cares. We've already accepted that just about everything in 5th edition will have a 4+ save at all times anyway. I'd just shoot the expensive possessed that were heading towards me, 4+ be damned.

Personally I would have dropped the price and then given a cost to each of the 'abilities' and they can take 1-3 abilities.

Take 3 and you have super troops who are horrendously expensive, bat express the random nature of possessed by addingmore opportunity for variety.
Take 1 and you have a similar cost to what they are now.

Sure, but the fact that Scout or Fleet or Feel No Pain or Furious Charge or Rending or Power Weapons are randomly selected means Daemonkin is just the icing on the Possessed cupcake.

What you want to do is build the unit so that whatever they end up with, it'll be useful but not necessary to pull off your strategy.

So the fact that they only have a 2/6 chance of having Power Weapons or Rending means that they are not assault troops and betting on getting one of those rules via Daemonkin is strategically foolish.

What you can control is their number, their Icon, their transport, and their Champion. The Icon both enhances the unit and provides a beacon for deep striking troops such as Terminators, Obliterators, Raptors, and Lesser Daemons. The Champion is just a Greater Daemon vessel.

I think that the problem that lots of players have with them is that they have no direct use: their use is synergizing with other elements in the army, to screen shooters, and provide an anchor for deep striking troops, and/or a Greater Daemon. Their Fearless and Invulnerable rules make them reliable in this role, with the possibility of Daemonkin making them even better at it.

If they do anything themselves, that's cool, but their role is to assist the rest of your army by facilitating its strategy.

Spellbound:

Correction: You've accepted that proposition. I do not.

But since you'd take the bait by shooting at the Possessed instead of the Chaos assault troops, it seems like you've conceded my point.

? I fail to see how. As a matter of fact most units would get their regular armour save against things. If I shoot you with regular weapons your tzeentch icon is a waste anyway. And if I shoot units behind you with anti-infantry, they also get their armour save and not the cover, so it's really moot.

Or if you take the mark of nurgle [no 4+ save] then I'll just use the heavier weapons, since your invulnerable isn't as good.

Nurglitch wrote:

I think that the problem that lots of players have with them is that they have no direct use: their use is synergizing with other elements in the army, to screen shooters, and provide an anchor for deep striking troops, and/or a Greater Daemon. Their Fearless and Invulnerable rules make them reliable in this role, with the possibility of Daemonkin making them even better at it.

If they do anything themselves, that's cool, but their role is to assist the rest of your army by facilitating its strategy.

Why bother synergizing when I can just take termies for slightly more points? They outshoot and out assault possessed in every way.

Noisy_Marine:

Actually, Chaos Terminators are not better in an assault than Possessed. Possessed are Fearless and they can perform Sweeping Advances. They're equally (if not occasionally more) resistant to damage, where enemy assault troops (power weapons and Rending, etc, is concerned). They won't run away just because they're beaten in combat. And they're cheaper.

Regardless, you would bother synergizing because you want a better army, and not just a better unit. This is particularly the case if you already have Terminators.

I dunno, in 5th edition it almost looks better, depending on that you lose to, to be "normal" rather than fearless.

Let's say by happenstance you lose combat to a swarm of hormagaunts by only 1. A normal unit makes a morale check at -1, the hormagaunt numbers don't matter at all. If that unit was fearless, they'd immediately take an unlimited number of wounds, decided only by the factor they're outnumbered by. That.... that sucks, really. Granted if you start losing combat by more, like 4 or 5, then fearless troops kind of come to the fore [but if you're losing by that much you probably aren't in very good shape anyway, no matter what the unit is]. But 10, dropped to 9, re-rollable as opposed to taking lots of auto wounds? Ouch.

One thing to consider though is that while terminators can't sweeping advance and possessed can is that neither unit can consolidate into combat now, and thus the terminators become more resilient, on average.

You've stated your case that possessed can be a halfway decent unit if you happen to roll a power that matches with your mark and the rest of your army. That works for you, go for it. Me, while the whole "on the fly generalship" idea intrigues me, I choose my units based on the job I want them to do. If I cover all my bases and have the extra points to say "ok, and this unit of possessed will....do one of any number of things to help out the others, we'll see" maybe I'd take them, but I would probably prefer an infiltrating squad of chosen with more specialized options to be my forward icon bearer rather than the possessed.

So take possessed, enjoy the randomness and on-the-fly aspect they add to your army. In my case and many others, it's taking away quite a bit, throwing a good chunk of our points into "who knows" land.

Nurglitch wrote:Noisy_Marine:

Actually, Chaos Terminators are not better in an assault than Possessed. Possessed are Fearless and they can perform Sweeping Advances. They're equally (if not occasionally more) resistant to damage, where enemy assault troops (power weapons and Rending, etc, is concerned). They won't run away just because they're beaten in combat. And they're cheaper.

Regardless, you would bother synergizing because you want a better army, and not just a better unit. This is particularly the case if you already have Terminators.

Being fearless and able to perform a sweeping advance doesn't make up for their lack of power weapons. Unless you happen to roll a 4 or 6 for their power, possessed can't do anything to negate armor saves. Whereas termies all have power weapons. Every game, no matter what, I know my termies will have power weapons, a 2+ save, plus whatever special weapons and icons I give them.

I'll gladly pay an extra 4 points to get a terminator over a possessed. Because I know exactly what they can do BEFORE I buy them and put them on the table. That's really important to me.

I don't understand why you want to buy units that may or may not do what you want.

I'd feel they'd be worth it for 25 pts and roll for 2 Possessed Abilities (no repeat abilites).
with or without roll before deployment
maybe include the option for 1 or 2 flamers

Maybe the available randomly generated abilities could each have a point cost and the general cost of the models lowered? Pay X points for FNP, stuff like that. Not suggesting any fixed numbers or points, just a thought.

My version Of Possessed. - 29 points

WS BS S T W I A LD SV
4 4 5 4 1 4 2 10 3+(5+)


Wargear:
Power armor
Single close combat weapon

Special rules:
Fearless
5+ inv save


Character-one model may be upgraded to an aspiring champion

Icon
Posses MUST take one Icon, but for the purposes of the game all models in the squad are treated as having a personal icon. Possessed also gain an additional effect from the icon to represent the specific type of demon that has infested them.

Chaos Glory - Furious charge - winged (count as jump troops - they get two because the possessed are already fearless) - 10 points
Slannesh - Rending - 20 points
Khorne - power weapons - 30 points
Nurgle - Feel no pain - 50 points
Tzeench - doombolt - 40 points

Transport - if the possesed do not take the mark of chaos glory, they may take a chaos rhino as a dedicated transport


So possessed become a very good asset to a demon-bomb army, as all the models in the squad are icon bearers, khore possesed have Str 5 3A w/powerweapon, slannesh have I6 and rending, Nurgle have Str 5 T5 FNP, and tzeench have 4+inv save and doombolt. even chaos glory is no slouch as jumptroops with str 6 I5 on the charge!

Spellbound:

If we are taking unit of Possessed in combat with a unit of Hormagaunts as an example, then the number of Hormagaunts matters quite a bit. It matters quite a bit, as you suggest, because the number of wounds caused on a Fearless unit is limited according to the ration by which it is outnumbered.

If the expected value of causing that many wounds (% multiplied by W#) is less than the expected value of losing a squad to a Sweeping Advance (% of failing morale check multiplied by % of losing Sweeping Advance multiplied by W(Squad)), then surely it is better that the unit be Fearless.

Let's say that a unit of six Possessed lose a combat to thirty Hormagaunts. How did they do that? Bad luck, essentially. They'd be wounding on a 2+ with a maximum of 12 hits (13 with Champion) if charged by a 300 point unit of Hormagaunts while costing 156 points (166 with Champion). If they'd managed to charge, then they would be wounding on a 2+ with a maximum of 18 (19 with Champion) hits.

Regardless, suppose there's 30 Hormagaunts beating them by one wound. That means the Possessed are outnumbered by 6:1, they take 6 more wounds(!). This is a convenient number though, because we can assume that the Possessed's 3+ save reduces that to two wounds, on average.

So, on average, in these disastrous situations, the Possessed will lose three members and tie 2x their points of Hormagaunts down in a slogging match.

By comparison, the Terminators will have a 17% chance of running, a 71% chance of getting Swept, lose all five Terminators in that unlikely event (12%), and leave a unit of Hormagaunts free to choose their next battle.

Both tactically and strategically it seems that Possessed will do better against such a unit of Hormagaunts.

Noisy_Marine:

Yes, you value predictability. Many Warhammer players do. The thing is that you can predict what Possessed can do with exactly the same degree of certainty; the Daemonkin rule doesn't change their role on the battlefield, it just gives you one of six flavours for carrying out that role.

Now, if you're going to say: "My strategy needs those points for Terminators", then fair enough. But if you're going to state that Terminators are categorically better, as in better in any possible army list, then you're quite mistaken.

I mean, the whole point of having several different options for the Elite slot in a Warhammer army is having an array of both competing and complementary options. That means that the exact distribution of points among options is conditional on what else is in your army, your strategy.

If your strategy benefits from some dependable screening troops, something to take the charge from the enemy (or to charge an enemy to trap it in close combat), then you should take Possessed. If your strategy benefits from some hard-hitting assault troops, something to mop up assaults, then take Terminators.

Of course, if you already have something hard-hitting and mobile like a Daemon Prince, then both the Prince and the shooting parts of your army will benefit more from Possessed than Terminators.

All that aside, I think if GW wanted to sell more Possessed models they'd make them like the Blood Angel's Death Company.

Chaos armies would get one free Possessed model for each Cult unit, or unit with Chaos Icon in the army, with a minimum of five from the same Cult to make a unit. After these freebees the players could then purchase extra Possessed at the standard cost up to the unit limit, with the usual options of upgrades of Champion, Rhino, etc. These units would be like Greater and Lesser Daemons, in addition to the usual Elite options like those units are in addition to the usual HQ and Troops options.

If people really have a bug up their butts about randomness, then change the Daemonkin rule to the following:

Daemonkin
These debased souls have given themselves over to Possession. All Possessed have Scout. In addition, the Possessed have one of the following special rules depending upon the Cult that they follow: Furious Charge (Khorne), Rending (Slaanesh), Feel No Pain (Nurgle), Power Weapons (Tzeentch), Wings (Chaos Glory).