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I don't personally see anything wrong with having randomly generated abilities. The key is that all the abilities must be fairly useful and getting the points cost of the model correct must be of absolute importance.

The model must be costed right at the point where they would almost be worthwhile taking even if they didn't get the randomly generated ability. Then the randomly generated abilities should all be good enough that, with the ability included, the model is basically under-valued.

The thing about Chaos is that, similar to Orks in some ways, they are supposed to have some really deadly abilities granted to them by the Dark gods, but the flip-side of those deadly powers is that sometimes the fickle gods turn on their servants and punish them.

Including random abilities that are potent when they work and kind of nasty when they fail is a great way to reinforce this idea in a game, but the point level needs to reflect the randomness, as opposed to their potential if all the rolls come out right.


My whole point with this thread is that there IS a points cost where the Possessed would be a viable, if not must-have choice. The trick is finding that points cost.

So if it is found that Possessed are viable at their current cost, then what?

Taking Chaos Space Marines as the basic cost for the profile of the Possessed, let us see what their stats and abilities over that base-line sum up to:

Possessed have +1S, +1Ld, an Invulnerable Save, Fearless, and lack a Bolt Pistol or Bolter. They also have the Daemonkin rule.

Noise Marines, at 20 points apiece, have +1I (+3pts) and Fearless (+2 pts).

Plague Marines, at 23 points apiece, have +1T (+3pts), Feel No Pain (+3 pts), and Fearless (+2pts).

Berzerkers, at 21 points apiece, have +1WS (+2pt), +1A (+2pts), Furious Charge (+2pt), and Fearless (+2). But no Bolters. (-2pt)

If this is a reasonable approximation, then +2pts onto 15 for your basic Marine makes it reasonable for the Possessed point value.

Chosen pay 10 points for a Champion upgrade, for +1A, wargear, and Daemon-hosting ability, while Chaos Space Marines pay 15 points for a Champion upgrade, for +1A, +1Ld, wargear, and Daemon-hosting ability. So say 5 points for Leadership if it makes a difference, otherwise none (+0pts for Daemonkin).

So how much for the Invulnerable Save? Thousand Suns are 23 points each, but they have no Bolt pistol or Close Combat Weapon (-1A, -2pts), Slow and Purposeful (-/-), and the Sorcerer Commands (-1pts). They also have Inferno Bolts (+4pts), Fearless (+2pts) and a 4+ Invulnerable save (+5pts). Since the Mark of Tzeentch makes 5+ Invulnerable saves 4+ at 15pts for Lords that gain no massive psychic abilities, then that's at least three points (Lord has 3x the wounds of Thousand Suns) on top of the original Invulnerable save. That makes Invulnerable saves 2pts, eyeballing it like this.

Notice a pattern here? An extra rule/stat on top of the Chaos Space Marine profile is two points, plus one for every other extra rule/stat it interacts with directly (hence why Feel No Pain and +1T on Plague Marines costs so). So give it +2pts for the +1S.

Possessed Bonuses
+1S, +3pts
+1Ld, -pts
+1A, +3pts
Sv5++, +2pts
Fearless, +2pts
Bolt Pistol, -1pt
Bolter, -1pt
_____________
23pts

Daemonkin. 3pts (average)
[Fleet - 2pts
[Rending - 4pts
[Power Weapons - 4pts
[Furious Charge - 3pts
[Scout - 2pts
[Feel No Pain - 3pts

Total: 26 points.

Hmm...

18 pts for Chosen
21 pts for Berzerker

I think Possessed should be 21-22 points. I see them like the generic Daemonic Marines, as opposed to Cult Marines, but otherwise very comparable.

Not 23 points like Plague Marines or Rubic Marines, but more than Chosen. Berzerkers are very similar, so this is about where I'd put Possessed.

+1S is a very good basic power, as is the Invulnerable save. The problem is that Possessed aren't specialized enough to warrant more points. If one could buy a mandatory Daemonkin power, or they were Troops, then they'd be worth more, perhaps 23-24 points. But they're not worth an Elite slot against Termies or Chosen.

Really, 23 points for random Possessed Troops would be really cool. You could take 3 or 4 small units backed by some shooty units, and just shove them down the opponent's throat with their Invulnerable saves.

Nurglitch,

That's a very good breakdown of how the points cost was probably arrived upon by GW.

However, what I'm trying to say is that rolling a random ability is a negative trait because you may not be able to use the unit in the role you are hoping for depending on the ability you roll.

It is even a larger disadvantage when you have to roll after deployment (as you have to commit the unit somewhat to a battlefield role without knowing exactly what they are going to be able to do).


As such, I think the +3 pts you're assigning for the Daemonkin ability should be waived if the player got to roll *before* deployment (making them 23 pts).

As they stand now, I think a -2 to -3 pt rebate is certainly appropriate based on the fact you have to purchase a unit, set it up and without knowing exactly what it is going to be able to do.

That isn't how the studio thinks, yak.

They cost everything as if you roll perfectly, in every mission, against every opponent.

It's why random elements don't work, not because of you or me, but because of how GW considers "random" units.

They always assume the best, when often they are the worst.

Can't make players pay points for a roll on the table without making ALL of the abilities useful ALL of the time.

Nurglitch, why do you cost bolters as -2 for Zerks but -1 for Possessed?

And why is a bolt pistol 1 point but an attack 3 points? A bolt pistol gives you an additional attack as well as shooting ability.

I think random abilities need to go, it's too much for a single dice roll at the start of the game to determine the effectiveness of such an expensive elite unit. The other random elements like Spawn, Dreads and Daemon Weapons (while I don't think any are good choices) are rolled every turn when used, so you don't have all your eggs in one basket.

Chad Warden:

Because Berzerkers have Bolt Pistols, and following the rule of adding a point for every extra rule/stat they interact with. Similarly the extra attack has its points increased from 2 to 3 because it interacts with the +1S.


Yakface:

My point is that the Daemonkin rule does not determine the effectiveness of a Possessed unit. They're as predictable as any other unit. You know what the unit is good for, and what it can do, as I've explained, and you shouldn't use them for the same tasks as Terminators, Chosen, or Dreadnoughts.

How do you know what they're good for? Treat them like the 23pt Possessed without Daemonkin. The Daemonkin is just a bit of flavouring that makes them slightly less than utterly predictable, and you know they're going to have one of the rules listed under Daemonkin.

If you consider possessed marines in a vacuum(no-one charging etc, no shooting before-hand) with not add-ons vs normal space marines in cc you get .

Possessed
1/2 chance to hit, 2/3 to wound, 1/3 to penetrate armour, 2 attacks = 2/9 chance to kill

Space Marines
1/2 cth, 1/2 tw, 1/3 pa, 1 attack = 1/12 ctk.


(2/9)/26= 0.00855 kills, per point invested, per combat.

(1/12)/15= 0.00555 kills, per point invested, per combat.

Possessed are clearly better for cost than marines in combat.

but who cares about 0.003 kills per point?

well lets reverse engineer their cost

(2/9)/?= 0.00555 ? = point cost.

2/9= 0.00555x?
(2/9)/0.00555 = 40 points.

so if you could get your possessed into combat every time with marines (like in this vacuum situation), possessed are a freaking sweet deal!

40 points worth of troop for 26 points, yes please.! With a free ability? ok... but I don't really want the free ability...

so basically for each possessed you field you get 14 points off to get them into combat.

Your trading a bolter for 14 points!

Now I picked marines to cost against because everybody can find a marines player to play against, if you can then you have an opportunity to use your possessed, all you got to remember is to get your possessed into combat without being shot, thats the plan at least.

Now they may not be as good as Khorn Berserkers all the time, but if you use them right, they will be a cost-effective investment anyway. And some of the time (about 50% of the time) they will be better because of abilities.

And then they can be flexible because of icons.

Spellbound wrote:I'm pretty against random too. Random # of attacks is alright if there's a decent base number [3+d6 is pretty good] but the 1 crippling your character that turn?

And I used dreadnoughts before with the random 1 and 6 stuff, but now that they shoot the closest thing regardless? Yeah. Not doing what you want is one thing, but doing something that's downright detrimental to your army? Ugh.

-Spellbound

Chaos dreads would be 100% better if chaos had drop pods/dreadclaws.

roadkill wrote:If you consider possessed marines in a vacuum(no-one charging etc, no shooting before-hand) with not add-ons vs normal space marines in cc you get .

Possessed
1/2 chance to hit, 2/3 to wound, 1/3 to penetrate armour, 2 attacks = 2/9 chance to kill

Space Marines
1/2 cth, 1/2 tw, 1/3 pa, 1 attack = 1/12 ctk.


(2/9)/26= 0.00855 kills, per point invested, per combat.

(1/12)/15= 0.00555 kills, per point invested, per combat.

Possessed are clearly better for cost than marines in combat.

but who cares about 0.003 kills per point?

well lets reverse engineer their cost

(2/9)/?= 0.00555 ? = point cost.

2/9= 0.00555x?
(2/9)/0.00555 = 40 points.

so if you could get your possessed into combat every time with marines (like in this vacuum situation), possessed are a freaking sweet deal!

40 points worth of troop for 26 points, yes please.! With a free ability? ok... but I don't really want the free ability...

so basically for each possessed you field you get 14 points off to get them into combat.

This mathmatics is incorrect.

you forget that marines, due to their 2 CC weapons get 2 attacks in combat.

marines kill an meq 1/6 of the time rather than 1/12

therefore marines have 0.01111 points per kill, which vastly outstrips possessed that kill

Possess have a kill per point of 0.00854

Terminators have a kill per point of 0.01666, better than both.


Reversed engineered, in comparisom to CSM, the score comes out as such:

CSM Score 15 (base cost 15)

Possessed Score 20 (base cost 26)

CSM Terminators Score 45 (base cost 30)

that indicates that, without any additional gear or demonkin, purely offensively in combat, possessed are worth 6 less that what they are costed. i do not consider demonkin to be worth 6 points.

it also indicates that terminators are worth 15 poitns more than they are costed.

given the comparison (admittedly done in a theoretical, offensive, vacume) terminators whould be your combat unit of choice for your elite slot, which seems about right.

Space marines don't get 2 attacks only veterans when they exchange their bolters.
(or do they, if not I apologise in advance).

I wasn't talking about CSM.

I used space marines because they are the most common unit you will fight against, and I think players try to avoid mirror matches so why do CSM vs PCSM?

He has to pay his points & you have to pay yours, you will get a decent return on your points if you use your possessed vs these targets (which arn't exactly uncommon).

It may not be the best return but it is still decent return, its not like its even nearly impossible get your moneys worth out of PCSM.

Obviously you want termies in tourneys, but if your playing casually no-matter what you roll for PCSM you can feel free to use them against SMs because they are not too shabby against them.

its bad to use an external benchmark for an internal matter.

SM cant use possessed and operate in different functions to possessed (more shooting than combat).

even though you will be facing them the majority of the time, possessed dont have to measue themselves against SM, they have to measure themselves against Berserkers, raptors terminators and CSM.

for a combat orientated unit (such as possessed) you need to use another combat orientated unit (such as CSM, rather than SM) as a comparison.

otherwise it would be similar to comparing guardians with harliquins in combat. one is meant for combat, one isnt. can you guess which one will come out on top.

for the most part armies are designed by themselves away from any other contrast with anything in any other army, and their points are reflected in their place in the list (CSM themselves are an exception since they are so similar to SM, but the rest of the codex will be based around them).

if you do want to compare units from one army list to units from another you should fulfill a similar role.

harliquins vs possessed is a good example.

they both occupy the same slot on a FoC and cost similar points. that being the case the results are as follows

vs MEQs

Possessed (26 pts/model) kill 0.222 each (0.111 per attack)

Harlies (18 pts/model) kill 0.0.222 each (0.0740 per attack)

Possessed kill 0.008547 per point

Harlies kill 0.01234 per point

reverse engineered (using harlies as a yard stick):

Harlies are worth 18pts each

Possessed are worth 18pts each

RE (using possessed as a yard stick)

Possessed are worth 26 points each

Harlies are worth 26 points each

the difference is, harlies cost 8 points less can possessed.

Now its obvious that harlies are much better than possessed but this illustrates 2 points:

1) Possessed really suck at combat. theyre just not worth their points, but harlies are one of the best close combat units in the game, which brings be onto my next point.

2) this is why comparison between armies is flawed. because power levels differ so greatly accorss the codecies its hard to get an accurate measure of a true point worth accross the entire game. what is easier and more relevant is comparing individual choices within army lists to see which choices are best for the role required.

Under 3.5 Codex, I fielded a constant 6-man squad of Possessed with Daemonic Mutation (+1 attack) and Daemonic Flight (jump packs) and used them as a bodyguard for my Sorcerer on Disc of Tzeentch, and they were high-mobile concentrated sickness that was 100% juice with no artificial colors, flavors, or additives/preservatives. I've fielded Possessed once in 4.0 Codex and watched them get gunned down like caged animals after their stupid Scout movement from the random table. Thanks, but no thanks; I'll keep to the Chosen and the Terminators because at least with them I can plan ahead to their capabilities.

My fix idea: drop them to 20 points per and make the random table purchasable for powers just like 3.5 was. Yeah, they'll be expensive, but their effectiveness would make them worth vying for attention against Chosen and Termies.

Thematically you could proxy em as either Khorne Berzerkers or Khorne Raptors to get a fairly close approximation. Still, I agree, possessed are gimped.

Regwon wrote:its bad to use an external benchmark for an internal matter...

Its not using a external bench mark, I'm not saying they perform well or not in comparison to what other races have on offer for cc troops.


The same way you don't use you lascannons for taking out ork shootaboys, you use them for taking out tanks etc, you don't use your possessed for taking out specialist close combat troops, you use them for chewing on enemy troops.

When you play a game and formulate tactics, you do the maths for your units beforehand, and you see how you think they will perform against the possible targets you may come up against, then you use that information in the correct way.

possessed may perform the function of troop chewers reservedly in comparison to other troops that chaos can field, its true, but they can still do it, and you can still get over & beyond your points back in blood for them!

so possessed can be used, they arn't as good as berserkers but you can go ahead and use them if you like the models, they are not useless by anymeans... just bear in mind that they are not as good as your berserkers.

(& that is without even factoring in the ability, this is assuming they get scout, if they get something better... who cares? we didn't figure in or hope for something better because random abilities are ****, so its just icing on the cake, makes them taste better but it isn't necessary).

i miss the old possessed where you could purchase the ability beforehand. the randomness would work if the models were like 22-24 each. another cool thing would be if they stayed at 26 and the icons were replaced with just the abilty applying to the whole squad(i dont see a daemon running around with giant flags icons, there to feral) and the gods marks were cheaper(not by much).

The ability to mix and match Marks of Chaos with Special Rules would get boring quickly; some combinations are simply better than others. That said, maybe this might work:

Possessed cost: 25 POINTS EACH
Unit Type:
-As book

Number/squad:
-As book

Wargear:
-As book

Special Rules:
-Fearless
-5+ Invulnerable Save
-Scout
-Personal Icon

Options:
-May have one of the following:
--Mark of Khorne for 5 pts
--Mark of Slaanesh for 5 pts
--Mark of Nurgle for 5 pts
--Mark of Tzeentch for 5 pts
All models in a unit of Possessed must bear the same Mark of Chaos!

--If Mark of Khorne, then all models have:
---Furious Charge for 5 pts
---Power Weapons for 5 pts

--If Mark of Slaanesh, then all models have:
---Fleet for 5 pts
---Rending for 5pts

--If Mark of Nurgle, then all models have:
---Feel No Pain for 5 pts
---Poison (4+) for 5 pts

--If Mark of Tzeentch, then all models have:
---4+ Invulnerable Save for 5 pts
---Psyker
---As a psyker, any model may have:
----Doombolt for 10 pts
----Warptime for 5 pts
----Wind of Chaos for 15pts
----Gift of Chaos for 10pts
----Bolt of Change for 20pts

-If no Mark of Chaos is chosen, then:
--Wings for 5pts
--Monstrous Creature for 10pts

Character
-One model may be upgraded to an Aspiring Champion for 10 pts.

yakface wrote:
I don't personally see anything wrong with having randomly generated abilities. The key is that all the abilities must be fairly useful and getting the points cost of the model correct must be of absolute importance.

The model must be costed right at the point where they would almost be worthwhile taking even if they didn't get the randomly generated ability. Then the randomly generated abilities should all be good enough that, with the ability included, the model is basically under-valued.

It don’t think it’s enough to make sure every ability is useful, you should have some kind of idea of the ability you’re going to get before the game starts. The current table is all over the place – you might get a boost to your speed, you might get a boost to your melee. Possessed might be a lot more popular if they were given two tables, one giving movement bonus (scout, fleet, leaping and a few other options) and one giving a combat bonus (rending, power weapons and a few others).

At least that way you know you’d be getting some kind of boost to your speed and some kind of boost to your melee.

Combat Table
1-Furious Charge
2-Poison (Always wound on 4+)
3-Rending
4-Preferred Enemy
5-Always Strike First
6-Power Weapons

Movement Table
1-Move Through Cover
2-Scouts
3-Fleet of Foot
4-Crazed! (Functions as Black Templars Zeal)
5-Beasts/Leaping
6-Winged

OK I hate the random tables, they hurt my ability to model and to predict what a unit will do.

I think one solution would be to offer up advantages but wtih corresponding disadvantages. One problem chaos has had since 2nd edition is that spikes and tentacles and mutation are universally good with no downside. Randomness corrects for this a bit but disadvantages can be build in.

So my humble idea...
Marine vet stats
5+ invulnerable
Fearless
Rending for 3 pts a model
Power weapons for 6
Wings for 10

Choose 1 mutation:

Hulking - +1 strength but -1 initiative
Bloated - +1 toughness but always move as in difficult terrain
Swift - gain fleet and +1 initiative but loose a point of strength
Multilimbed - gain +2 attacks, but armor save drops to 4+
Ancient - +1WS, infiltrate

So now you can model the unit you want, predict it's abilities but pay a price beyond just the point value.

Before, people would complain that PCSM who ended up with increased movement made their transports useless. I still think they're a mixed bag: but now with the new reserve rolls, you could deploy them seperately from the Rhino, and use the Rhino for another squad (especially in DoW). Just something to think about in 5e.

I like where Glitch is trying to take this arguement in his previous "chibi-possessed-tactica", thinking outside the box for an unused unit is good times.

Unfortunately, possessed just aren't worth the points in my eyes.

If you wanted to cut down the cost, I'd think it'd be like engineering chaos marines up to the possessed level
Take a ten man squad and just start upgrading
+3pts/model for +1s and fearless (Fabius Bile)
+4pts/model for Icon of Tzeentch
-4pts/model lose Bolter/Bolt Pistol/additional CC attack (no real compariable cost. But losing the innate +1a hurts more than just losing a bolter/bolt pistol)
+3pts/model +1a(icon of khorne)
-2pts/model Loss of frag/krak grenades
-5 pts/squad or .5/model for lack of choosing gear with the asp champ

So this brings us up to 15.5 points a model without including the fact they can stack the mark of tzeentch on with an icon of your choice. But this is kind of balanced out by the fact they lose the chance to take a powerfist or powerweapon on the champ. Also ignoring any special weapons or melta bombs.

Statistically, if they were sixteenish points a guy(before adding in the daemonkin) I'd totally take them as a troop choice alternative to any other troop choice. They're a very tough, very general-purpose melee troop. The utter obliteration of the squad at the hands of any dreadnought kind of sucks but eh, what're you going to do? But the point of this equation was to show that they'd need to make back ten points a guy on the daemonkin roll.

If you want to do a five-man squad instead, to give more of an edge to the possessed...
+3 pts/model for +1s and fearless
+8pts/model for icon of tzeentch
-4pts/model for loss of bolter/bp/ additional CC attack
+6pts/model for icon of khorne
-2pts/model for loss of frag/krak grenades
-5pts/squad or 1pt/model for loss of champs gear

That'll bring them up to 23 points a model before daemonkin. Which makes them a much more attractive choice as the daemonkin roll only needs to make back 3 pts a guy. Scouts without a rhino is something I'd probably not pay 3pts a model for(3pts a squad, sure), rending lets them scrape dreadnoughts, and seems well-worth 3pts a model. Power weapons? Easily worth it. Fleet? Meh. Feel no pain is indeed worth 3pts, and furious charge is a nice add on for 3pts.

So, at the five-man squad level, possessed are comparible to their vanilla brethren if my maths are correct. They can't take objectives, or any wargear besides icons, but if you're not fighting a dreadnought-heavy list, they should hypothetically be able to make back those points.

Kid_Kyoto wrote:I hate the random tables, they hurt my ability to model and to predict what a unit will do.

Marine vet stats
5+ invulnerable
Fearless
Rending for 3 pts a model
Power weapons for 6
Wings for 10

Choose 1 mutation:
Hulking - +1 strength but -1 initiative
Bloated - +1 toughness but always move as in difficult terrain
Swift - gain fleet and +1 initiative but loose a point of strength
Multilimbed - gain +2 attacks, but armor save drops to 4+
Ancient - +1WS, infiltrate

So now you can model the unit you want, predict it's abilities but pay a price beyond just the point value.

Conceptually, I generally agree.

The problem is that a lot of the Mutations overlap Icons, also, they're more complex than they need to be. For example, would you be able to have Nurgle Bloated Possessed at T6? Or Khornate Multilimbed A4 Rending Possessed?

I'd look at Possessed as a HtH-oriented Troops pick that splits the difference between CSM and Cult Marines. Power-wise and role-wise, Possessed are essentially the same as other Cult Marines, and really don't belong in the Elite category, much less at 26 pts/model. As Troops, the basic Possessed without any bonus powers is worth 20 pts, and you could probably do a pretty decent job with them as an all-Possessed force. Adding Mutation and/or Icon brings their abilities and costs in line with the other Cult units, so that's good. And offering HtH-oriented Champion upgrades is cool and interesting, makes good use of the interesting bitz on the sprue.

So I suggest something like this:

TROOPS

Possessed

Cult Marine statline, including S5, Fearless, 2 CCWs
Daemonkin = 5+ Invulnerable
= base cost of 20 pts.

option of 1 Mutation:
- Cameolonic (Infiltrate & Scout, +3 pts/model)
- Serpentine (Beast Cavalry, +3 pts/model)
- Winged (Jump Infantry, +5 pts/model)
- Taloned (Rending, +5 pts/model)

option to be Marked.

option of Rhino if not Cameolonic, Serpentine or Winged.

Champion can take PW, PF, LCs, or Flamer.

This is thread necromancy but serious points are proffered so ok.

MinMax wrote:Combat Table
1-Furious Charge
2-Poison (Always wound on 4+)
3-Rending
4-Preferred Enemy
5-Always Strike First
6-Power Weapons

Movement Table
1-Move Through Cover
2-Scouts
3-Fleet of Foot
4-Crazed! (Functions as Black Templars Zeal)
5-Beasts/Leaping
6-Winged

I like this idea. Note they are also missing grenades, unlike Raptors and Berzerkers. Which includes Krak. Similiar problem Spawn have when it comes to competing with Raptors.

I'm not much sold on rolling for random stuff which can more effectively be converted and modeled. Especially when they're so different in power levels.

Those Possessed wing-packs *should* support a winged unit of Jump Infantry. The chaos force sword-looking bit *should* be a Champ's Power Weapon. Screaming mouth *should* be a Flamer.

Possesed aint that bad, their rather good i think

I think Possessed are useless in general and math up the page isn't quite right when looking at nilla marines. The MEQ unit should include the standard vet sgt and his power weapon. This means, standing face to face, no charge:

Marines kill 1.5 MEQs for 200 points for 133 points per kill.
Possessed kill 2.3 MEQs for 260 points for 113 points per kill.

So in the vacuum of hand to hand only, Possessed are better. However, they have no shooting, no heavy weapons and some random ability. Assuming the two forces run towards each other, a more likely scenario, the one round of shooting form the marines drops the points per kill by over half to 53.

This beyond sucks
I brought possessed when I saw them in the codex cos they look to danm cool
I then painted them to the best of my ability and have had many complinments on the paint job.
But for the life of me, have never managed to do much with them in an actual game :(
They need to be buffed next codex, I think there is a niche that needs to be filled and possessed can do it, im just nt sure what that is... probably shock troops (give them daemon fire or something (akin to a heavy flamer))

Thread is being locked due to thread necromancy.