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Hi Everyone:

I am doing some research for my next d6g Hollywood Minute and where better to ask than on the premier website we all know and love.

OK, so I listen to Jeff's Podhammer and I hear how they discuss their gaming clubs with both themselves Australian players and UK players and it sounds distinctly different than how we have our gaming club up here in NH. I would like to see if any one would like to weigh in other parts of the US and other parts of the world that have gaming clubs.

Here in NH where we play, we seem to have no real bond to the club itself ( I don't mean the people) I mean the club itself as an entity. For example, we just seem to go to our FLGS and we play with the people there. That's our "Club". But as I listen to other podcasts there seem to be that the members of a gaming club feel a part of something other than a place to play. There usually is a name that means something to the members. There seem to be membership requirements, and non-members cannot assume to just show up and play it sounds like you need an invite to play, and other distinctions you see out there?

One thing I wonder what makes the distinction is: If the gaming club plays in someone's garage it seems to follow you would not just want anyone over in your house. Is that the only distinction?

Would love to hear what the Dakka community has to say on this point.

Is “we have no club we just play” unique to my local experience?
Tell me about your game club?
How do you feel about you gaming club?
How do you run your membership?
Where do you play? Garage or Store or Both?
Is it a US thing vs. a UK (Aus) thing?

You get the idea.

I've played in MI, IL, and (northern) CA. I have no real attachment to any of the places at which I've played - there may, indeed, be a distinction there, as almost all the group gaming I've encountered is at a store, rather than someone's house.

The closest I've come to what seems to be the UK "club" feeling is the Adepticon Team Tourney experience, where (friendly!) rivalries extend for years, and team members put forth great effort to identify themselves as part of their team. We're starting to see larger groups of teams form, too.

None of this applies to those Toledo hooligans, though - they're crazy. And definitely cohesive.

I've noticed the guys that play at my work seem to have a store comradery between those who play at the store and those who came from other stores. Although this could have something to do with the more competative nature of the gamers at the store.
I think one of our gamers summed this up rather well "I went to a tourney at the other store and it was like playing in a different universe, like the difference between Jr High and professional hockey, or hard liquor and b*tch drinks."
We really don't have a club yet but I'm in the process of forming one.

I've played at a couple of clubs in the UK, most notably Harrogate Wargames Society (AKA Rafa, after the building it was in), and yes, it had a membership scheme (I've still got my old card), a fee to enter, a commitee to make decisions for the club etc. I think most clubs in the UK are like that, unlike you unruly colonials.

At shops, ie GW, it's different, you just turn up, but at tournaments I was always repping Harrogate GW, and all the trophies and certificates locals won are displayed in the shop, my best army awards are proudly still displayed, years after I won them. You yanks were always a fickle bunch, no loyalty...

I used to belong to a group called The Frankfurt (Frankfurt Germany) Wargamers. We'd play Warhammer 40K or Napoleonics at various people's houses. There really weren't any game stores to play at. We also took road trips to game conventions in England and Germany as well as to battlefields. Even now, we've met up here and there, at Origins or other US conventions.

We rent out a scout hall for $20 a month, we hold it every sunday or every other sunday depending on how bad attendance is that year, we have all of our tables, terrian and tournaments there.

Entry is $2 when you show up and it runs from noon until 6pm (unless there is a tourny).Anyone is welcome but we have a core of about 10 to 15 people that show up regularly.

There is also a friday night game night at a local store that supports alot of the club guys (and gals) shop at.

Thanks for all the responses so far.

Do you all think too that in the US we are "more competitive" and in the UK or AUS, they are more "friendly gamers". What I mean is, is there no US comraderie its more about winning but overseas they may want to win but they are still "Mates"? Is this a gross overstatement?

I am not saying the US players are better or worse in any way than our over seas gamer pals, just trying to wiggle out the distinction between the two gamer clubs that it seems like the first responders in this post are in agreement with.

What do you think?

Raef "Hollywood" Granger

I think that now matter where you go you'll find a mix of fun/competetive gamers just as you'll find a mix of club types from uber-organised committee run 'formal' clubs to informal groups of mates.

There is a strong tradition of formal clubs in the UK (can't speak for the rest of the world) but that is very much a holdover from the early days of wargaming, when everything was naval, napoleonic or ECW. The vast majority of gamers tend to be groups of friends who play wherever is convenient.

I don't think you can really assess how competetive gamers are in different nations without actually playing them. There are some 'hard-boiled' gamers in the UK who always enter the UKGT (or equivalent for their system), take it seriously and play to win.

Whether they're more or less competetive than you guys is something that will have to wait for the GW world cup.....

I've been a member of several clubs over the years. They've ranged from independant little groups with Incorporation, committees and elections and AGMs and their own tournaments to small informal groups that met up in a shed at the back of a mate's place and to the "umbrella" clubs.

Umbrella clubs are where the games club need a venue, but due to circumstances (public liaility, usually) can't just "hire" one. They approach a licenced club venue (or community group/school/etc) and apply to be covered under their charter and policy. Usually, at least one adult member must join the "parent" club (so being able to hire the venue at reduced cost) and it isn't uncommon that ALL adults MUST join the parent club.).
The games club is then covered by the licenced club's liability insurance.

Two clubs I've been with have been like this.

Another two allied themselves with a local game shop (who had a cavernous space out the back or upstairs) and in return, the club got a "home" and liability coverage, and the store got a "promotional" asset that was a tax deduction (so any money they spent to upgrade our facilities was "free").

I've also been a member of one of my (then) local GWs "Battle Bunker" groups. Where I could arrange a game with other like-minded players for a specific time and date.

My current club is an "umbrella" club. Many of the independants have been swallowed up or killed off by liability insurance hikes (in excess of 700% in some cases.

Greebynog wrote:I've played at a couple of clubs in the UK, most notably Harrogate Wargames Society (AKA Rafa, after the building it was in), and yes, it had a membership scheme (I've still got my old card), a fee to enter, a commitee to make decisions for the club etc. I think most clubs in the UK are like that, unlike you unruly colonials.

At shops, ie GW, it's different, you just turn up, but at tournaments I was always repping Harrogate GW, and all the trophies and certificates locals won are displayed in the shop, my best army awards are proudly still displayed, years after I won them. You yanks were always a fickle bunch, no loyalty...

My experience of UK clubs is similar. We had a constitution, a committee, we did group projects like going to shows, building terrain and big games. We did out of club activities like Mega-games, trips to shows, paintball days, Christmas dinner, post-club pub crawls and so on. Many of the members socialised and played in out of club ways.

You've only got to look at South London Warlords and the Salute show to realise how big and well organised a club can be.

OK, so how different is this to the US and why?

I don't know from experience but I get the feeling most US players do not have clubs and regard the store as the focus of their gaming. I asked in a different thread about this. It was a question about parish halls and community centres. The problem with a store being the focus is you are dependant on the store owner's good will for whatever you want to do. This means there is no point in having a committee and making community terrain because the store guy could kick you all out whenever he wanted.

It is a known fact that US people in general are more competitive and individualistic than UK, and we are more competitive and individualistic than Euros on the whole. I don't know if this makes a difference. Being competitive does not make people anti-social of course.

From long experience in the (video) games industry and playing online games, I feel that a lot of US players are very competitive (or rather, they like to win) and rather juvenile in their attitudes -- in many cases because they are young teenagers.

I see more exploits (cheating) done on US servers for online games than on Euro servers.

I hope this does not sound like an anti-US rant, as it's not meant to be. There are tons of great US online players, who chide the cheats and play fair.

The fundamental point about playing games is you need an opponent. If you go all out to thrash them at whatever cost, they will not enjoy playing and will give up and your game will be spoilt because you won't have anyone to play. So competitiveness has to be tempered with a sense of partnership in enjoying the game. It is far more enjoyable to beat (or lose to) a worthy challenging opponent than to win over a helpless n00b.

Speaking as a US player, I’ve experienced more with gaming clubs in the last few years. They’re not usually as formal an entity as the ones the UK guys are describing, though, with bylaws and a committee and such. Though the old Dakka Dakka club/league (which Raef was in too) had a council of three league organizers/rules judges, which Russ was on for years, and I was on for a while. The Dakka league was an independent entity which mostly met and played at the Wizard’s Tower in Nashua before John and Russ opened up the Dakka Dakka store. I don’t think there were club dues, though there were participation fees for the leagues to help fund prize support and such.

It’s fairly common for local clubs to take on the job of organizing events and leagues around a particular store, though they’re usually open to anyone, not just members of their own club. At Danger Planet in Waltham, MA, for example, the Lost Legion runs Warhammer tournaments. And the Dorkamorka club and ‘Arvard Hardboz recently teamed up to put on a big independent 40k team tournament, renting out a hall to do so, with some sponsorship and terrains support from local stores. As I recall when I went down to my first GT at Baltimore in 2001, the Iron Fist League was a big organizing presence in Maryland. The Warmongers in NYC host most of the tournaments at The Compleat Strategist.

Going back six or seven years, IIRC, there has been a New England Warhammer Club Challenge (the NEWCC), in which different regional/local clubs, including the Iron Fist League and NYC’s Warmongers, would send 4 man teams to play against the other clubs in a tournament, with the top aggregate score taking home the trophy. This is still going on; each year it alternates between Warhammer and 40k, and the club which won the previous year organizes and hosts the next year’s event. As I recall the challenge started out as an after-hours event one night at a GT or Games Day. Nowadays it’s an independent event, and as I recall the Warmongers were talking about expanding it up to a two-day tournament.

In the last few years I’ve gotten involved with the Warhammer fantasy independent GT scene, in which clubs are definitely an element. Again, they usually don’t have a very formal structure with bylaws and such, but generally a group of guys who play together will form a group, name themselves, and identify themselves with the group when going to tournaments. Usually someone starts a club-centered website, and they organize custom t-shirts to wear to events. They hang out when they attend tournaments, root for each other, and sometimes compare aggregate results with other clubs. Or hold club vs club challenges at the tournaments on a smaller scale from something like the NEWCC. It adds another component for socialization and friendly rivalries.

Clubs also give organizers a nice tool when setting up pairings for a tournament. If players are listed as being part of a club, the organizer can work to avoid pairing those guys up for the first round or two of the event. It’s always nice to minimize how many times people play against the same guys they drove down with. If you look at the list of players registered the Crossroads Challenge Indy GT, for example, out of about 70 players, only about a half dozen aren’t associated with a club: http://www.crossroads-gt.com/2008Players.html. Pretty much everyone attending is a member of the Jervis’ Johnsons, the Battlebuddies, The Carroll County Ganstas, Da Boyz, the Lost Legion, Warmongers, STG, Dice Dogs, Albany Gamers, Turn 7, TFG or Syracuse Gamers.

The Necro GT does the same, and as you can see, most of their registrants are also affiliated with clubs:
http://www.thenecro.com/participants.htm. IIRC, they also give a formal prize to the club whose members have the highest aggregate score.

Right now I’m a member of two clubs. One is the Lost Legion, the aforementioned Boston/Waltham based Warhammer group. I play in their house league when I can, get down to their tournaments when I can, and wear the colors (http://thelostlegion.net/) when I attend tournaments. When I played in the Warhammer tournament on Friday at Adepticon, I wore my Lost Legion shirt and got my picture taken in it when I won an award. The Legion guys are regional, and hang out pretty often. At the Colonial GT we did a club challenge vs the Warmongers on Friday night, six individual games all right next to each other in a row, with special rules that any unit which fled or persued off the short table edge onto another table joined THAT game. We also made it a drinking game, as all the participants were over 21. It was a lot of fun, and made for some fun trash-talk before the event: http://www.thecolonialgt.com/forums/viewtopic.php?t=1440&start=0


I’m also a member of the Cold Steel Mercs tournament team, which is an old (20 or 30 years, maybe) group from the UK, originally composed of historicals gamers. I met Alex Fennell of Mongoose at a Danger Planet tournament a year and a half ago, who was a member and was organizing a US branch to represent the club at the Adepticon 40k team tourney. He recruited me as a fourth member, and I got my friends Jamie and Christian involved when his other friends dropped. Right now we’re up to six US members, and five of us got out to a tournament together last month, which was a lot of fun, as we’re a bit geographically scattered and can’t hang out all the time. Again, we do the t-shirts and the socializing and cheering for each other at events. And planning and bouncing army list ideas, thoughts on scenarios, and such off each other before events to help each other prepare. So I represent for the Cold Steel Mercs when I play 40k and the Legion when I play Warhammer.

Other groups have similar concepts. 40k Fight Club is a pretty big group of guys who play together and try to refine their skills for tournaments. They’re up to nine chapters, now? http://www.40kfightclub.com/. 40k Wrecking Crew is another: http://40kwreckingcrew.com/.

You could always do a club page on the Dakka Articles system.

I'm just sayin.'

/pimpoff

I've found that my gaming circles revolve around the games
themselves and/or the people being just the right character.

I've joined two groups to play Necromunda, 1 group to
play Fantasy, and one group to play Warmachine. There
is very little overlap in the player base, but I hang out
with one of the Necromunda groups simply because they
are close in age and temperament. (They don't play
Necromunda anymore, but we STILL hang out).

There is no clubhouse.

Maybe I should try to get them to write a Constitution. It
would probably be filled with in-jokes and perversions.

Hey all:

Have not forgotten you. Just waiting for the write time episode wise to put the Game Club HWM into the right episode.

Thanks again for the input.

Raef

In undergrad (Oberlin College) we had a gamer's club that sponsored games and events (with a budget from the school), and one of the local-ish stores charged $5 a month "club fee" to play at their store (I think).

In Cincinnati it was more 'the store has open gaming and tournaments, and you come and play or not'. There were attempts to get clubs together and the like as a way to coordinate who would be where, what people were bringing (as no one wanted to show up for 40k when everyone else was playing Bloodbowl), but it never seemed to quite work.

The FLGS I go to is more of the "people show up and play" variety. As most of the people there seem to be around every day, I guess it's more clubby than other places (?).

When I started playing a couple years ago at my FLGS it was more a show up with what you have, find an opponent and have some fun. Eventually people got tired of just playing Cleanse missions and playing against the same armies over and over so people stopped showing up as often, so some of us at the store switched to a more organized style of play where we just email each other with game we'd like to play, the points value, and when we'd like to do it. I guess we haven't evolved to a full scale "club" and our group is definitely centered on the FLGS, though some of us have been going to regional tournaments in groups.

Adeptus Orlandicus is mostly informal. We do organize events under the Club's umbrella about once a month, but there is no formal structure per se. It's mostly 4 guys who run events, and the rest are the regular players associated with the player base at Sci-fi City, and to a lesser extent, at Rhubarb Games.

The club has no head, and no real structure. We did have a requirement that you have at least 1k of painted troops, but that seems to have been put aside. It's not really a problem, since most of us seem to have that already.

Thre is no club up in the interior of British Columbia that I am aware of actually. Most of my friends and I just play in each others houses. It makes it so much easier when you are not having to deal with parking, parking meters getting down town and trying to get a game in before the store closes. And to be honest though the idea of a club has been raised on several occassions, the few examples I have seen are quite honestly not something I would wish to replicate. Since in my(lets be honest very limited) experience clubs are full of people who tend to take the game and themselves far to seriously for my liking.

I would tend to think that in many large cities where actually owing a home with enough space to set up a couple of tables might be to expensive that clubs/stores fill in the void.

Do US and Canadian have parish halls or community centres?

I'm curious because British clubs are usually based at one, or else a pub(lic house) function room. None of our North American members mention these venues.

The Fighting Hellfish. That's my Club and while our store of choice has closed, the club lives on. We still meet up for movies, leagues and/or tournaments.

http://www.fighting-hellfish.com/