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Grenade Lancuhers and Grenades on IG is it good in 5th, or what just wondering.

I see list with alot of Grenade Lancuhers in them and that doesn't make sense cause you shouldnt take them.

Did they get better?

And should you give IG Grenades now ? ?.

thanks.

No, they don't get any better. The only difference, even, is that the Frag Grenades auto-hit, but scatter 2d6-3"...

I only use Grenades defensively, in Command Squads. That's only because I mistakenly built a few, before I realized they suck.

I have the GL and Flamer in all my squads. Just because they are on the sprue and didn't feel like converting anything for rank and file squads.

Then I found out that they are the suck, but oh well.

K so every one is just carzy or lazy. lol

But so yea k thanks yall seen to many people give all there IG grenades and Grenade lanchuer's and such.

Hi there,

Grenade Launchers aren't bad- they're not great, but they aren't bad. They don't pen armor on most things, but then again, they don't kill your special weapons trooper on a 1, either, and they're relatively cheap.

With the new blast rules, they are better in 5th. Also, A s6 ap4 shot is very good against some models, such as hard boys and some eldar, and the versatile of anti-horde, light-armor buster and light-vehicle harassment can be very handy. Did I mention they're cheap?

With the changes to how actual grenades work, frag grenades are worse for IG in 5th. Now you go at your Init when assaulting into cover, instead of I10, so they are really worthless, unless you happen to be assaulting orks or necrons in cover.

If your line guardsmen are assaulting then you are in serious trouble anyway, grenades wont help!

nathonicus wrote:Did I mention they're cheap?

Beware of false economy. While a single Grenade Launcher is cheaper than a plasma gun, you can't buy JUST a grenade launcher - you have to buy the guy carrying, and the squad the guy is part of. As such, the actual cost of the weapon is a fairly small part of the total cost of fielding the weapon, which is one of the reasons plasma guns are so much better than GLs. For a fractional increase in total cost, you get so much more.

There's no reason for IG to ever field a non-plasmagun special weapon. EVER.

And that's terrible.

Wot? Not even a Melta gun?

I wouldn't go that far, Agamemnon2. Melta guns (in numbers & in suicidal, mobile squads) have their uses. Hell, massed flamers in a Chimera have decent uses. It's just the grenade launcher that has no use.

I'd phrase it as "there's no reason for IG to ever field a non-plasmagun special weapon in a line squad."

Yeah, I think particularly in the near-future of 5E, meltaguns are going to become even more important for guard to pop those nasty tough Land Raiders.

And while grenades themselves are about as useless to Guard as a Siberian ice cream truck, I think there's something that can be said for large quantities of cheap templates in the form of GLs.

Janthkin wrote:I wouldn't go that far, Agamemnon2. Melta guns (in numbers & in suicidal, mobile squads) have their uses. Hell, massed flamers in a Chimera have decent uses. It's just the grenade launcher that has no use.

I'd phrase it as "there's no reason for IG to ever field a non-plasmagun special weapon in a line squad."

Beat me to it. I'd never use a GL at all, and I'd only use meltas in small mobile squads. I can see a few squads with flamer/heavy bolters in an infantry heavy army, but that's about it.

Janthkin wrote:

nathonicus wrote:Did I mention they're cheap?

Beware of false economy. While a single Grenade Launcher is cheaper than a plasma gun, you can't buy JUST a grenade launcher - you have to buy the guy carrying, and the squad the guy is part of. As such, the actual cost of the weapon is a fairly small part of the total cost of fielding the weapon, which is one of the reasons plasma guns are so much better than GLs. For a fractional increase in total cost, you get so much more.

I think you may want to explain yourself a little better here. I can't just as well buy ONLY a plasma gun. Reads as though you are taking the cost of the GL with trooper, then comparing that to the cost of the plasma gun. Do I understand you correctly here?

What he means is that the diffrence between a squad with say, an autocannon and a GL and an autocannon with a plasma gun is still only 2 pts, however it's now no longer 8 to 10 but 83 to 85, a difference that's so small as to be nearly irrelevant.

Would you pay 2.5% more for a much better weapon? I know I would.

nathonicus wrote:Grenade Launchers aren't bad- they're not great, but they aren't bad.

No, they are bad. Very bad actually. And completely unecessary for a Guard Commander.

S7 AP2 is better than S6 AP4, and a S4 AP5 Flamer Template is better than an S3 AP6 Blast Marker (especially in 5th!). Plus, it's two points more to upgrade from S6 AP4 to S7 AP2. Why would you not do that?

Grenade Launchers, like Missile Launchers, are a versitile weapon in an army that doesn't need versitile weapons. Guard can afford to specialise - they don't need half-way measures, especially ones that cost 8 points a pop.

BYE

The real fix for grenade launchers is to make them more effective, not drop their point cost. It would actually be nice to see that grenade launcher come with a IG Infantry Squad for free in their current base cost.

Heck, make 'em indirect fire assault weapons; getting side armor (top armor, really) with S6 isn't too bad.

H.B.M.C. wrote:

nathonicus wrote:Grenade Launchers aren't bad- they're not great, but they aren't bad.

No, they are bad. Very bad actually. And completely unecessary for a Guard Commander.

S7 AP2 is better than S6 AP4, and a S4 AP5 Flamer Template is better than an S3 AP6 Blast Marker (especially in 5th!). Plus, it's two points more to upgrade from S6 AP4 to S7 AP2. Why would you not do that?

Grenade Launchers, like Missile Launchers, are a versitile weapon in an army that doesn't need versitile weapons. Guard can afford to specialise - they don't need half-way measures, especially ones that cost 8 points a pop.

BYE

Well, I see your point. (2 pts more, really? I thought they were almost double for some reason. Hmmm... boy, they do kind of suck in comparison at that difference.)

In defense of the grenade launcher, however, it has a greater effective range than the plasmagun (move 6" + fire 24") and doesn't kill your own guy when it overheats. Not huge advantages all the time, but there have been situations where they were useful. Such as last night when my 'suicide' 10man + grenade launcher squad moved forward and popped an ork trukk full of burna boys on the first turn, something I couldn't have done with a plasma gun. (And yes, I know there are other weapons better for doing this, and trust me, they are in my list and had their own targets to worry about.) This ability to move and fire at such a range is actually very useful.

Perhaps I am just partial because I play steel legion minis, and GLs are what I have (as until recently, plasma steel legion were impossible to find), so I've learned to use them and enjoy them. You are probably right in that they are overcosted. Maybe if they were to allow them to fire indirectly, that would make them better.

So, HBMC, what do you consider a good mix - half your line squads being LC/PG and the other half as AC/PG?

If you're playing orks or nids I can see them being useful

nathonicus wrote:

In defense of the grenade launcher, however, it has a greater effective range than the plasmagun (move 6" + fire 24") and doesn't kill your own guy when it overheats.

Guardsmen are like Doritoes. Crunch all you want, we'll make more. Sacrificing a guardsmen to possibly kill a terminator is 16 points I'm willing to spend.

I have a Grenade Launcher model. He looks great on my desk. That's about as close as he'll get to a table top without some kind of rules/points tweak.

Eh, if they were assault three with the current rules how would that go? Three blast templates at even that pathetic strength is gotta kill somthin.

There Still not worth it.

Plasma is much better.

And Death to kill Ratio is fine.

K well with the Plasma you have a effective 18 In Range with 2 shots. (move 6) fire 12

They'd maybe be ok at 5pts and indirect and maybe assualt 2 S3 AP-6

For the Template well thats dumb k If your playing a good person they will speard out enough to avoid you.

And You also have to hit and wound said target which S 3 isnt good at. And BS 3 isn't the best.

Most enemies will be S4 or higher even.

and the one boosted shot o well you can take out Ork Trukks and maybe rear arm. There the possiabilty you miss. And with new vechile rules it is harder to kill them.

Much rather have S 7

Much rather have a Plasma. O and Plasma is really for Line Squads Give Vet's Meltas and Rements Meltas and storm Troopers (it goes to High BS models and sucide squads) there going to die doing there job.
(command Squads if Deep Striking)

Ratbarf wrote:Eh, if they were assault three with the current rules how would that go? Three blast templates at even that pathetic strength is gotta kill somthin.

Then they’d be good. They’d also be good if they were AP1, or had a large blast. Problem is, none of those changes make any sense at all. The grenade launcher is a humble weapon that should have humble firepower.

Thing is, if you’ve invested the points in a squad of IG you don’t want a humble special weapon, you want something that kills marines. To make the grenade launcher viable you need to cut the price of the basic IG squad, back to 50 or maybe even 40 points, and make the grenade launcher the default option at no extra points, and the plasma gun a significant investment, maybe 10 points.

Then you’re looking at a viable, basically equipped unit of guardsman capable of taking objectives and firing a nuisance value special weapon. Or you’ve got a guard unit designed to hold the line and fire its plasma gun each turn, that’s 20% more expensive than the standard squad. Then people might look at sticking to the grenade launcher.

You can adjust the exact points values to taste, but the principle is that by cutting the cost of the basic unit while increasing the cost of special weapons, you maintain the current value of the plasma armed squad while making basically armed squads viable.

I actually have a soft spot for grenade launchers for the following reasons:

1. I have never (and I honestly do mean never) played a game with plasma weapon that hasn't blown up. Usually on the first turn. Usually followed by me showing my normal ability to fail saves . Grenade Launchers never kill me!

2. They have good synergy in IG line squads with heavy bolters (3x S5 AP4 and 1x S6 AP4).

3. They are good for light anti-tank work (transports, light skimmers etc)

4. Against eldar, horde nids, guard infantry (pretty much anything thats T3) frag grenades work! Particularly in 5th ed where guard blast weapons are more accurate.

The problem with GL's is simple. They're poor at killing MEQ's and MC's. I don't think this makes them bad weapons, just weapons with an appropriate use.

Now before people get on their I am not saying they're brilliant or that every GT army should have them (lets face it they won't) but I don't think they're as useless as they're made out to be.

Just my $0.02

Death By Monkeys wrote:So, HBMC, what do you consider a good mix - half your line squads being LC/PG and the other half as AC/PG?

Depends on the points level and what the rest of the army is doing. Most Guard tanks are killing infantry, so the Infantry Squads need to kill tanks, so they get Lascannons. At lower points levels (around the 1000 mark), the Autocannon shows up more as it is better suited to dealing with a wide range of targets whilst off-setting the crappy 50/50 shooting us Guard Commanders enjoy. If the army includes a decent amount of dropping Melta units, then the need for Lascannons in squads is relaxed a little, but in those cases I'd take Heavy Bolter/Flamer squads first; not because they're any good but because they're 76 points each and make great speedbumps that can add a little fire to begin with.

5th should make AT Squads somewhat useful again, so we can start taking them again, and an more even spread of the Holy Trinity (LC, AC, HB) will return).

BYE

Chimera_Calvin wrote:3. They are good for light anti-tank work (transports, light skimmers etc)

And Plasma Guns are better at that, being S7. Especially when paired with Autocannons, that are also S7, and fire two shots a turn.

The Grenade Launcher doesn't mix with any Heavy Weapon.

Chimera_Calvin wrote:but I don't think they're as useless as they're made out to be.

Yes. They are. There's nothing they do that cannot be done cheaper or better with something else (and, in some cases, both).

BYE

I think IG would be best served if GLs were traded in for heavy stubbers. They would at least have a battlefield role (rolling lots of dice against horde armies).

Plus, you know, they look cool. As opposed to either GLs or plasmaguns (I like my phallic symbolism a LITTLE more subtle, thanks).

yea wish could get stubbers

Play Lost and the Damned...Oh wait...They're gone...

I'm thinking of it this way. The ideal IG special weapons layout, as it were.

* Heavy stubber. This is the baseline from which you upgrade. Fairly unimpressive, gives you a few extra bullets to throw at Orks.
*Flamer. Bit more specialized, good cheap weapon to use in extreme close ranges with suicide squads or in cityfighting.
*Meltagun. AT specialist weapon. Good for veterans and other high-BS infiltrating or deep-striking types.
*Plasma gun. Jack of all trades, ideally expensive enough not to be a no-brainer but cheap enough to use.

The humble grenade launcher suffered a huge drop in power going from 2E to 3E, which it has never recovered. In 2E, you could use it to do wacky things like, IIRC, firing blind grenades, scare gas or antiplant bombs. It used to be a proper multipurpose gun, but those uses are no longer effective or useful in modern 40K.

It's a shame because I quite like the idea of the weapon, even if the current models are a bit naff. Except the Krieg GL, that one's lovely. I still use them, because I suck at converting plasma guns, and would rather use ineffective weapons than gakky conversions.