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I am planning on starting a Death Korps of Krieg army, and I have no idea what special weapons I should give my squads. I was thinking a meltagun per infantry squad, and maybe plasma for each command, but since this is my first guard army I could use some advice. Should I even arm them with a special weapon? If their job is to hold the line while I artillery the crap outta the other army, is it just better to have more men than fancy weapons? What do you all think?

You should define how you want to play with them-shooty, mixed, agressive short range, mechanized?

It does really depend on how you want to play them, but I have a few thoughts in general.

Meltaguns - These belong in stormtrooper, veteran, or cmd squads where you can have more than one. For the big nasty vehicles you probably will need more than one hit to have a good chance of destroying it, and if you have 3-4 then the unit can also be deadly to terminators, ork nobs in megarmor and the like. 1 12" weapon in a 10 man squad is probably not a good choice, as you are likely to be in a position to never use it, and it makes having a heavy in the squad nearly impossible to use effectively. Basically, you will be using one or the other each turn. For infantry squads, I'd say it's not a good choice.

Plasma Guns- Generally really, really good. Kill marines, terminators, and can even bust light vehicles, plus they have good range. However, the same holds true for plasma as for melta guns - they are most effective in groups of 3-4. Spreading them throughout your army can give you the ability to put high AP shots where you need them, though, so it's worth considering. They are also expensive and have a good chance of frying themselves, with only a 5+ save so I tend to let my stormtroopers carry the plasma. If you do include them in your infantry squads, I'd take a lascannon as your heavy. While this will become an expensive squad, it will be good at kill meqs, termis, and vehicles.

Flamers. A good choice if you are running the squad with no heavy weapon. A really good choice in 5th because it negates cover and keeps your squad cheap. I would consider this a very good option for an objective-grabbing squad. Also, while multiple flamers are very brutal, a single flamer is also very effective against the type of target it is meant to take out (light, massed infantry), whereas the other specials benefit more from being grouped, in my opinion.

Grenade launchers - Ah.... the humble grenade launcher. It is probably over-costed and should cost only what a flamer does, but I take them in all my infantry squads. Mostly because that's what comes in the steel legion box. However, I have found them to be incredibly useful on the battlefield when coupled with a missile launcher as the squad heavy. The versatility can come in handy, as s6 can still bust Rhinos and Trukks on a lucky roll, and with the improvement to blast weapons in 5th, I have gotten 5-6 hits off a single frag grenade. Also, they are an assault 24" weapon which means you can really reach out and touch some one, often from a (relatively) safe distance. They are not a bad choice for command squads, as you will probably have the models for them, but I think they are a waste in veteran, storm trooper, or special weapon squads. So not too bad for command, decent for infantry, terrible for elites.

I just re-read your post and saw the line about 'holding the line', if that is your use for them, I would stick with cheap specials like flamers and grenade launchers, and probably run them without heavies at all. I wouldn't drop the special weapon entirely, because while I love the savage fury of a lasgun volley, you really will be running squads who can't do much of anything to exploit attacks of opportunity, and your opponent will see great big "safe zones" in the areas that would normally be covered by special weapons from your infantry squads.

Actually, come to think of it I believe flamers and grenade launchers are the preferred weapons of the DKOK, right? Could be wrong about that, though.

Anyways, hope that helps. I do love to rant and rave about the guard, my first 40k love.

Cheers,

Jaric wrote:I am planning on starting a Death Korps of Krieg army, and I have no idea what special weapons I should give my squads. I was thinking a meltagun per infantry squad, and maybe plasma for each command, but since this is my first guard army I could use some advice. Should I even arm them with a special weapon? If their job is to hold the line while I artillery the crap outta the other army, is it just better to have more men than fancy weapons? What do you all think?

Guard line squads should be equipped with lascannons & plasma guns, period. It costs slightly more than, say, Missile launcher/grenade launcher, but is disproportionately more effective.

Command squads can have a number of roles, depending on how you want to use them:
-In a Chimera, either 3-4 melta guns or 3-4 flamers are a great mobile asset, useful for up-close work. I typically use one of each configuration.
-In a "Drop Troops" army, with 3-4 meltaguns, they are one-use deep striking assassins.
In either case, remember to keep an officer or two with the line (probably the CHQ w/standard bearer).

Veteran squads are most useful in a multiple meltagun role, in small numbers, with the expectation of their death.

Heavy weapons squads are probably best served by carrying autocannons - a very useful weapon (unless you've got a lot of Chimerae, where the multilaser can play the same role), and less threatening than the line lascannons.

Be aware that Krieg cannot have heavy wpns in their infantry squads, have no access to veterens or special wpns sqds, and only 1 special per cmnd sqd. Its big guns in the back, and mass of men in the front.

Jaric wrote:Be aware that Krieg cannot have heavy wpns in their infantry squads, have no access to veterens or special wpns sqds, and only 1 special per cmnd sqd. Its big guns in the back, and mass of men in the front.

Huh? Since when does Krieg have anything like this...?

If you're running Krieg, get some Rough Riders, they're solid counter-charge units, with S 5 I 5 Power Weapons, and a 19-24" threat radius.

Squads should be Las/Plas. End story.

Iron Discipline is, of course, a must on your Officers.

Never, ever buy Hardened Fighters. Absolute waste of a Doctrine, but at least it's not mandatory.

You can have 1 Veteran squad. A favoured tactic of most IG players is to arm them with either 3 Meltaguns or 3 Plasmaguns, and Deep Strike them way behind enemy lines. However, this requires the Drop Troops Doctrine, which Krieg does not have. In a pinch, Stormtroopers with 2 Meltaguns or 2 Plasmaguns and Deep Strike can do the same job, but it's more expensive, and less effective.

No no, not the codex Krieg rules. Im gonna use the FW Krieg rules.

Oh. Well, you're on your own then.

Why handicap yourself in that manner?

I dunno....use FW rules for FW models? Fluffy? I really have no idea...FW rules seem more WW1. Is it suicide?

FW rules have a major failing....they are FW rules!
Not many tournaments allows their use and,in my experience, neither does a lot of gaming groups.

If you're going to pay that much for DKOK models, then the least you can do is help yourself win some games and use normal Guard rules.

BYE

FW rules....sigh.

/delete

If Jaric wants to play Krieg then play Krieg. Its a triumph of WW1 style over effectiveness, frankly if grenade launchers fit your idea of Krieg, use them.

Frankly I envision Krieg as being on the low end of the tech scale, with fewer melta weapons or plasma. However the list already restricts you, with no lascannon allowed. So you definately need melta.

I know most tournaments don't allow FW rules but I've never run across a gaming group that doesn't allow them.

FW rules have so much fluff in them you can use them as a pillow but they are generally overcosted for regular play (why would anyone forbid an opponent from taking an overcosted but very cool unit is beyond me).

FW's whole raison d'etre is to provide alternative ways to play the game and give you models you can use in scenarios rather than open play (e.g Sentinel Powerlifters would never be taken in a guard army, but in a scenario involving defending an airfield they're exactly what you'd be using).



Ultimately if someone favours fluff over WAAC that's their decision and I'm getting a little tired of some people on here giving advice solely on the basis of a percentage increase in chance to win.

Can a DKoK army win a game? Yes
Are the models/fluff really cool and appeal to certain people? Yes
Are DKoK armies good choices for scenarios/story-based games or campaigns? Yes
Will they win the next GT? Probably not, but if the player isn't interested in that - why should he care?



Rant over...

FW rules have so much fluff in them you can use them as a pillow but they are generally overcosted for regular play (why would anyone forbid an opponent from taking an overcosted but very cool unit is beyond me).

Two reasons:
1) A lack of familiarity. Often, random strangers in pick-up games will not be familiar with FW rules, and they know they're not allowed at most tourneys. This creates the perception that your opponent may be trying to "pull something" - at the very least, they aren't playing the same game as you. And your lack of familiarity with the rules, even if they're fluffy-kitten rules, leaves you uncomfortably off-balance, in a game where most players know most thiings about most armies.

2) Every know and then, FW screws up royally and puts out a HUGELY over-powered unit: these are your Cyclops demo vehicles, your Meiotic Spores, or your Infernus Shells.

Ultimately if someone favours fluff over WAAC that's their decision and I'm getting a little tired of some people on here giving advice solely on the basis of a percentage increase in chance to win.

So, you're upset that people are OFFERING ADVICE TO INTENDED HELP OTHERS WIN?!? It ain't soap in your soapbox, is it? Did you bring enough to share?

Why post in the tactics forum, if not to seek advice on winning? It's very easy to "tone down" an army that has been optimized - replace a couple optimal units with fun-but-less-effective units. But before someone drops the cash on a full FW army, I feel I'd be doing them a disservice if I didn't point out what an effective build looks like. A standard Guard army contains the necessary pieces to build a FW Krieg army; the opposite is not necessarily true.

Are the models/fluff really cool and appeal to certain people? Yes

The models appeal to anyone. They are gorgeous.

Chimera_Calvin wrote:Ultimately if someone favours fluff over WAAC that's their decision and I'm getting a little tired of some people on here giving advice solely on the basis of a percentage increase in chance to win.

Hi and welcome to Dakka Dakka. It's what we do. Don't like it? Feel free to click your browser to another forum. Dakka will always offer advice on optimizing a list. Your choice to accept it or move on to another site. Regardless, Dakka will continue on as it always has... giving solid advice to make tournament worthy armies for those who ask.

As far as the OP, do not feel shoe horned into the FW Krieg list. It is very limited and does not offer the same bang for the buck as the IG dex, even though it's an Arty list. The current IG Dex allows for a fairly fluff friendly DKoK list with Batteries of Heavy Mortars and Thuddguns in elite and Bassies in HS. To each his own.

People will always give advice on how to max a list. If someone is going for an obvious fluff theme however and accepts that it'll be a limitation on achieving their full effectiveness potential but is alright with that, people should take that in mind when they're giving their advice.

Chimera_Calvin wrote:Ultimately if someone favours fluff over WAAC that's their decision and I'm getting a little tired of some people on here giving advice solely on the basis of a percentage increase in chance to win.

This is a tactics forum. It is here for people to posts army lists ideas and stretegies that they think might work and for other members to go over those ideas and see where they work and dont't work. If you want to discuss theme and your feelings, then go to Warseer. Over at Warseer, the deepest thoughts you'll get on army list design and strategies is 'USE TACTICS!'. Over at Warseer, every unit in every Codex is useful, and if you think it isn't, that's because you're not 'using tactics'.

So the choice is yours Calvin:

1. Post here if you want help making flawed lists into good lists and break down game ideas to see if they work.
2. Post there if you want everyone to give you a reassuring cuddle for a bad list and tell you it'll all be ok as long as you 'USE TACTICS'!

BYE

Aduro wrote:People will always give advice on how to max a list. If someone is going for an obvious fluff theme however and accepts that it'll be a limitation on achieving their full effectiveness potential but is alright with that, people should take that in mind when they're giving their advice.

Misconception.

Whenever I've done a rebuild for someone in a Guard thread, I almost always try to keep the structure of their list in tact. I strive to ensure that the units they've taken remain within the list (unless those units are junk, like Ratlings or Advisors), and only tweak that particulars. As I've often said, there's no point in someone just giving you a list because they know it's effective. You don't learn anything that way. The best way to learn is to make the list you want as good as it can be, and then play it to see what else needs to change.

But I said 'almost always'. I said 'almost always' because sometimes the lists people post are so bad, or the choices they've made are so horrendous, that the only way they'll learn is if you go over in detail why their list is the worst thing since sliced Kroot, and why their Sniper-Armed Light Infantry Cybernetically Enhanced Hardened Fighter Warrior Weapon'd Die-Hards are going to lose them games, not win them games.

If someone comes along and says 'I want a core of elite Infantry backed up by lighter recon elements' and posts a junk list full of Sniper-Armed Light Infantry Squads and Grenadiers with Flamers, we can still keep to their theme whilst making the army as effective as possible. I guess what I'm saying is that 'theme' and 'effectivness/efficiency' are not mutually exclusive, and you and a number of other more recent folk would do well to remember that.

BYE

HBMC - I'm well aware this is a tactics forum, but surely tactics is not limited to just building an army list, but also how you get the best out of what you've chosen?

The OP was asking what special weapons would work well in a DKoK list and the response seems to have been 'don't do a DKoK list because it's not as good as a standard list.

DKoK rely on unusual tactics (for a 40k game) to win. Indeed they are an incredibly difficult army to win with as they cannot adopt many standard guard strategies. So what can they do well and how can their options help them to do so?

Firstly, DKoK MUST have a strong core of artillery (and/or armour). This is where their main offensive 'muscle' comes from. The inability to give line squads heavy weapons, coupled with the need in 5th ed to use troops to hold objectives means that troop squads have a different role than normal.


Bearing in mind that counter-assault is best done by rough riders and that long range fire will be the province of artillery, armour, command squads who have access to heavy weapons and heavy weapon platoons, there are 3 main jobs that DKoK line squads need to do:
1. Holding objectives in their deployment zone.
2. Capturing objectives in neutral/enemy territory.
3. Protecting their artillery/armour from enemy assaults.

1. In the case of troops given a holding role, they want to engage the enemy at as long a range as possible. This really gives you the choice between Plasma and Grenade Launcher. The squad shouldn't move, so the difference between assault/rapid fire is irrelevant. The plasma gun is better against tanks, transports and heavy infantry, but does risk blowing up and killing you each time you use it! Although the GL has marginally better stats when used against light infantry, these are not going to be spearheading an assault.
Verdict: Plasma Gun

2. For troops advancing on enemy objectives, cover is absolutely vital for keeping your men alive. Range is therefore less of an issue as in most cases you should only attempt to engage at very short range. A meltagun is tempting for anti-tank work, plasma for taking out transports and heavy infantry (but does of course still risk blowing up) but you'll only have one of them and guard BS means you can't rely on hitting.Against enemy objectives, you will come up against people in cover and being able to automatically hit lots of them is the best way of ensuring that this squad makes its points back.
Verdict: Flamer

3. This last role is tricky, but essential in DKoK armies. Your artillery should be able to outshoot the enemy, but are very vulnerable to assaults. Whilst your rough riders should be your primary counter-assault unit, a smart opponent will target them first. In 5th ed, true LOS will give your opponents more chances to shoot at such large targets, so you need a plan B in case they die before his assault troops make their move. Meltas are not useful against assault troops, as at best you'll only take out 1 per turn, and the units you're worried about will shrug off GL shots. Plasma would seem to be the best bet as it has surer kills against heavy assault units like Raptors and jump-pack SM's, but again risk not only missing, but killing one of your own troops in the process. A flamer guarantees you hits against most if not all of the attackers and lets you get the charge, which gives you extra attacks and can combine with Iron Discipline on your officers to speed-bump the attackers.
Verdict: Flamer

Hope this is of use. Good luck with your DKoK army - and hope to see some pics soon