Forum adverts like this one are shown to any user who is not logged in. Join us by filling out a tiny 3 field form and you will get your own, free, dakka user account which gives a good range of benefits to you: No adverts like this in the forums anymore. Times and dates in your local timezone. Full tracking of what you have read so you can skip to your first unread post, easily see what has changed since you last logged in, and easily see what is new at a glance. Email notifications for threads you want to watch closely. Being a part of the oldest wargaming community on the net. If you are already a member then feel free to login now.

I went and played a bunch of 5th ed games this weekend and have been noticing something very disconcerting, everything has cover. All the time every time. No matter how hard I try. Everything seems to always have cover. I'm not shotting with a lot of high AP weapons with anything but Obliterators. They simply aren't paying for themselves in kills anymore. They try to lay down some plasma cannon fire and whoever they are shooting just makes a majority of their cover saves then jumps out of cover to waste my oblits, who don't really benefit from cover with a 2+ and 5+ invul.

I'm starting to get the impression that the core 2 DPs, and 6 Oblits is not as good as it once was. I'm beginning to actually think that chosen, with their ability to infiltrate, will make much better choices then DPs as well as Havocs. The Chosen will be able to infiltrate around cover and actually benefit from it a little more as well as having 5 wounds compared to 4 which I know isn't a big gap. And the lack of slow and purposeful makes them a little more mobile. The Havocs can lay down better heavy fire than the Oblits at this point too. They will just have more shots, which is more important in 5th with all the cover saves.

In defense of Obliterators though, they can deep strike to Icons. Who are running or riding across the field. But most of the time when they do that they aren't going very far due to such a high amount of cover. And perhaps my results are varying because of the terrain where I play. We only have ruins, low walls, and forest terrain. Maybe with some buildings with entry points and firing points they would be doing better.

But I'm honestly thinking of forgetting about Oblits for awhile at this point. They are just getting shot down and failing at laying down heavy fire on the crowds with cover I'm encountering.

I still think oblits are the best anti-tank unit for chaos. Sucks they only have energy based attacks now but a move and shoot MM or deepstriking twinlinked MG will put the hurt on vehicles.

Move and shoot isn't as good or as neccesary now with TLOS but it is still useful and something neither the havocs or the chosen have with long range weaponry.

Overall, if you aren't facing vehicles or MCs then I can see why you aren't too happy with em. They serve little purpose in 5ed without such targets.

Oblits don't suck, they are needed for anti-tank duty.

Plasma cannon barrages still put alot of wounds out.

If you are running Chaos, and run Lash...you can break cover saves, ya know.

trouble with havocs is they can only do 1 job efficiently. you can either go anti-tank or anti-infantry, but not both. oblits can. you would have to have 2 or 3 squads.

the thing to bear in mind about shooting is that, although it is half as effective in many cases, it happens more often becuase you can now see more stuff. admittedly, though, small numbers of low AP weaponry looses out to large numbers of high AP weaponry pretty serverely in 5th. noise marines get comparitively better.

infiltrating on from the side with only 1 unit wont work well because its too random. you need many units to make it effetive. 3 is the minimum you can have really. 3 large units of chosen is very expensive (they have to be large so they dont get wipped out in one turn of shooting) and at the core, they are still just girly marines. they dont put out enough firepower to replace oblits or havocs and arent as good in combat/dont have the same abilities as demon princes.

Demon princes and a bunch of obliterators are no longer the only thing in a chaos army that matter? *gasp*!

Wasn't one of the major points of fifth to encourage balanced forces that don't over rely on small stacks of specialist units (which oblits are). They are deep striking moving heavy weapons squads with the ability to effectively engage tanks or terminator equivalents, which is something they still do just fine.

ShumaGorath wrote:Demon princes and a bunch of obliterators are no longer the only thing in a chaos army that matter? *gasp*!

Wasn't one of the major points of fifth to encourage balanced forces that don't over rely on small stacks of specialist units (which oblits are). They are deep striking moving heavy weapons squads with the ability to effectively engage tanks or terminator equivalents, which is something they still do just fine.

I was just suggesting that a core of DPs and Oblits wasn't as effective as it was in 4th. I never said the only things I run are DPs and Oblits.

When they are engaging those Terminators or tanks they aren't as good as they once were. Everything having cover a majority of the time is robbing the high AP weapons they have access too. Where there once was no save there now is, because of cover. That is my general observation.

How many wound were you Obliteratore putting out . You could try to put the Obliterators up high to see over there cover that may help i run 5 to 4 of them my self . how this helps

Wait, let me see...you are actually saying that Oblits are worse now because everyone has a save?

The "everyone" is usually marines...and that save increased from 5+ to 4+.

Unless you were playing on a amusing board with no forests for marines to be comfortable in.

Were you really using Oblits to wipe out IG before? I mean, really? Were you?

Sigh. I just don't see how they are LESS powerful against infantry.

Terminators got +1 to their save too...man, I just don't get it.

DP's get a +1 to their cover save now.
Oblits do too.

All they really "lost" was the ability to kill tanks in the open without having to beat a cover save.

Big deal? EVERYONE has to deal with that now.

Really, oblits are just fine. DP's can run you in and out of cover formation with lash, and they crush enemy vehicles that didn't move.

S6 + 2D6 vs AV10 x5 attacks + 0 cover save = Dead.

We've actually been noticing how difficult it is to get a cover save now, as a lot of our buildings are the traditional "wedge". Two walls and a bunch of floors that give lots of cover through the windows on one side, but NOTHING on the other where all the open floors are facing. True, if you're down on the bottom looking up they get cover, but if you're far enough back that's less of a problem.

Woods, while they give a 4+ cover now, are also no longer LOS-blocking. You can see THROUGH woods templates, giving MORE opportunities to fire.

But personally I've thought 6 oblits was always a bit much. I would stick to 3 oblits for some anti-tank and get some havocs with missle launchers for the mix of both anti-tank and anti-infantry when needed.

Then pray you don't run into a well designed or well played mech list with 3 oblits.

If you do...well, even monkeys know.

I could say I've handled them well plenty of times.

But you'd just make wild assumptions that the players that owned them sucked, or their lists sucked, or that they weren't you.

Psst - there are more guns than just obliterators in the chaos list, and a mechanized eldar list can easily wipe out a unit of obliterators in 1 turn without really risking much, then follow with more of that the next turn. So 3, 6, the only difference is how long they have to shoot them to eliminate them and how lucky you are during the 1 turn of respite you get.

A well-made mechanized list also makes a fool out of the Lash, which you consider the ultimate ability. It's not, really.

Maybe you should read more of what I say and stop assuming.

Your other guns are 3 blastmasters?? Surely you kid that these are anti-tank weapons suitable for killing mechanized armies?

I have 3 blastmasters and 6-9 obliterators and I still have problems taking out tank armies. I also have 2 TS squads with BoC. Come on now. You don't have real anti-tank for 5E. Believe it or not.

If you really think I believe Lash is awesome, well please search back through my posts and see what I really think.

When you face any army with significant amounts of AV14, let us know how poorly your army fared.

Even AV13 will shut your list down.

5E.

It's a brand new world.

Yes, 5E will make all my dice roll much much lower.

The armies that spend 750 points in undergunned AV14 tanks will steamroller me with non-scoring units.

Save me Stelek. Teach me the error of my ways. I will bring 30 havocs with 12 lascannons and 6 squads of noisemarines and when they fail me I will fall crying to your feet, begging for more of your infallible knowledge of how to roll higher than a 6 on a 6-sided dice.

Help me oh lord and master, help me see the light of the better than S9 weapons in higher abundance than any normal list can have.

Yawn.

I guess you'll just have to see for yourself, smartass.

Survay says........

*DING!*

Spellbounds an Ass!

Despite your thinking Stelek has a good point. Your last post however Spellbound, I didnt bother reading fully and in depth. Its hard for people to take you seriously when you act like a 10 year old kid.

Holy moses is Spellbound wrong here, do you even play warhammer or just try to pick fights? Do you even know the cost of those havocs/noisemarines or are you just writing to bait?

If you handle any kind of "mech" army with 3 obliterators and 2 blastmasters you are playing something wrong, or you are using weighted dice. Also, if you let mech eldars wipe your oblits in r1 you done something seriously wrong, considering LOS blocking terrain and the fact that they move and fire. This gets worse if 5th ed, but so do SMF eldars.

Havocs can be good if you make a designer lists but they lack flexibility.

Lash + Oblits are still the shizzle in the gutted CSM codex, esp now when you can move pepole out of cover. Not unbeatable but still the best deal in that lousy book.

There wasn't much depth to it. My W/L/T record is at least as impressive as Stelek thinks his is, yet apparently I've been doing things wrong from the start and if you ask him, I'm a terrible player that has no idea how to do anything right.

Go figure.

I expect to see more tanks in 5E, this is true, but with only troops scoring I don't expect to see TONS of them, especially since the only ones really capable of laying waste to lots of troops got a serious dumbing down in mobility and the ones that can cause the most damage now scatter way off target around 60% of the time, slightly less depending on BS.

What should be cool is the amount of tank-on-tank combat we should be seeing in the near future. The need for troops slots will make competition hard-fought for whether someone wants an anti-tank squad or an anti-tank tank for their army, and with the new wound allocation system I think it's likely tanks will win out. People might take predator annihilators in chaos armies now instead of Obliterators, if you think about how Oblits will often be shooting 3 lascannons at enemy tanks, the pred will do the same for cheaper, etc. etc.

But obliterators still have the anti-infantry options too, so who knows. Guess it'll come down to playstyle, like it should be!

Kallbrand.

Dude.

It's 3 oblits, in ONE UNIT.

Moments like this one make the internet priceless.

TANK ON TANK COMBAT?!

Kallbrand wrote:Holy moses is Spellbound wrong here, do you even play warhammer or just try to pick fights? Do you even know the cost of those havocs/noisemarines or are you just writing to bait?

Been playing almost 10 years. Totally just trying to bait.

Kallbrand wrote:
If you handle any kind of "mech" army with 3 obliterators and 2 blastmasters you are playing something wrong, or you are using weighted dice. Also, if you let mech eldars wipe your oblits in r1 you done something seriously wrong, considering LOS blocking terrain and the fact that they move and fire. This gets worse if 5th ed, but so do SMF eldars.

I suppose you've never had the unfathomable joy that is moving obliterators out of cover and shooting only to have your shots bounce off harmlessly and then be killed in return?

As to handling the mech armies, you don't always have to kill their transports, just limit their options and kill the units inside once they come out and try to do damage. Transports don't always do a lot of damage, and consistently glancing guntanks makes them useless even if they don't die. I've lost all my big guns and still managed just fine by playing chicken and running away and hiding. Never forget cowardice is a valid tool.

Kallbrand wrote:
Havocs can be good if you make a designer lists but they lack flexibility.

They don't need to be flexible if they have a definite job, and something else in the list is covering their weak spot. Only sometimes will they be left in the cold - if you blow up the enemy's tanks early in the game it does suck to shoot lascannons at 6 point guardsmen, but hey now they can run and havocs all have bp/ccw!....totally joking there. Frag missles, now that they may hit many more targets, might see more use now. If the enemy is sitting in solid cover, using frags and allowing their saves MIGHT be more effective than giving them the cover versus a smaller number of kraks. Depends on luck more than anything, seems like. I don't think I'll be trying it.

Kallbrand wrote:
Lash + Oblits are still the shizzle in the gutted CSM codex, esp now when you can move pepole out of cover. Not unbeatable but still the best deal in that lousy book.

Oh don't I know it. I'm a Slaanesh player and the potential for lash + template has been obvious since day 1. Blastmasters? Doomsirens? Sure! But see, some people don't like doing the same thing everyone else does, and enjoy variety and making odd things work. I've had lots of good experiences, actually, using a fast chaos lord with some Slaanesh raptors. Not as much fun as I used to have with daemonettes and a crazy daemon prince on a bike, but some nonetheless.

Pushing people around with double lash just makes me physically ill. Maybe it means I'll lose a tournament anytime I try.

I can live with that.

Dude, Eldar players run lots of S6 guns without AP because that's what Phil Kelly put in the book as a very good build.

I haven't personally run a Starcannon in YEARS.

Only AP2 stuff I have are 2 pulse lasers on 2 falcons and a fire prism blast.

Is that what's killing you?

They don't have a ton of AP2 fire unless that's all they bring (cough gimpwalkers) and if you 'bounce off' how's that work?

In 5E? Stunned vehicles (thanks holofields!) can't shoot you...is it the Wave Serpents and/or Guardians with Starcannons killing your oblits or what?

Please, no mentioning of BL Guardians pwning your Oblits...I can't handle the laughter anymore.

nah. Shuriken cannon jetbike guardians actually.

2 hits, 2 wounds, snake-eyes.

Happened too many times to count.

The Pulse-Scatter-S.Cannon falcon is popular around here, but I'd say Pulse-Star-S.cannon is equally so, due to so many marine players.

And yes, my oblits were often in 1 unit because I liked my defiler and vindicator. Lots of time converting them, I always liked to include them. It's only been recently when I tried going more into close combat [no, not with 10 noisemarines in rhinos] that I've had to drop the tanks and I've been splitting the Oblits - which sounds like a liability in 5E.

Stop using crappy GW dice and use dice with proper sharp corners.

You don't bring alot of oblits in a chaos list, you are going to get smacked around by tank armies.

I run NINE in 4E + 7 other ways to kill tanks (5 other shooting units and 2 princes) and I'm still short...and that's in 4E!

5E? Yeah, not looking forward to the vehicle spam armies.

I buy Chessex dice that look pretty with swirls and colors in an attempt to appease Slaanesh and earn her favor in lucky rolls. She still isn't happy....she'll never be happy.....she makes me roll box cars for morale tests for undivided units, then again on the re-roll. And I rolled 10 1's on 12 dice once. Just ask Ghost Maker, it's a true story.

Ive been playing for almost 20 years but it doesnt really mean anything by it self.

A mech eldar is ususally pretty much in transports/tanks or jetbikes so you would have to deal with them somehow.

Other then that it seems more like your flavour not to run them, because everyone else is(same with lash-prince). Thats fine, but still doesnt make them anything less then the best choice out there. Unless ofc you are making a designer list, then you should be able to find better ways to spend your points.

Back to the topic tho, the obliterators are still very powerful and probably the best hwy choice in a gutted list. High ap weapons suffer more from the new coversaves but if used right should still be able to fire at things without it(preferable thru using lash but good manouvering and priority works too). They are also your best choice for AT, maybe not the top of horde control but 3 PC are still something to fear.

I hope they still are in the new edition. That scatter roll scares me to death.

Against a horde, average dice rolls being what they are...

Even if you 'miss' you usually don't scatter far...and you then put down 2 more templates.

It's quite possible to hit alot of enemies with the no partials rule.

Sure you can completely whiff it, but that's what you bring 3 units of oblits for.

One is bound to hit per turn, and with lash...oh boy!

Just remember to burn 1 lash a turn pushing the mekboyz minder squad away from your target unit.

Makes Orkses mad, yes it does...

I love the new scatter rolls, they usually hit something. With all partials beeing hits and BS 4 you almost never miss everything.

I had to miss this weekend of gaming, but last weeks' games were not promising using blastmasters. I tended to always scatter clear off my target units.

Do all units of multiple blasts follow those barrage rules now? I thought each would be rolled separately, but now units like oblits or havocs with frags will work like mortars?

Well that could be good or bad...not sure. How do you think people will defend against blasts now? Huddle close together, figuring a hit will be devastating but making it more likely the misses will scatter off completely?

Has anyone crunched the numbers? 1/3 of the time you'll hit, and of the remaining 2/3 scattering you'll counter any 2, 3, or 4 result, and an average roll of 7 in any direction should still leave you touching something [half the template + half the template means the edge is over a model you were covering before, depending]. But let's just focus on the odds you'll either HIT or get a scatter of 4 or less. Anyone?