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Here is my first crack at one.

HQ:

J/O w/ honorifica, I.D., standard bearer, mounted in chimera with Hull Heavy Flamer, multilaser.
Anti Tank squad LC, w/ sharpshooters
Anti Tank squad LC, w/ sharpshooters

HQ:

4 man GK termie squad with Hood, Sacred Incense.

Troops:

command squad w/ I.D., w/ 2 flamers
10 guardsmen, LC
10 guardsmen, LC

8 Grenadiers w/ 2 plasmaguns
8 Grenadiers w/ 2 plasmaguns

Heavy Support:

Leman Russ w/ hull heavy bolter
Demolisher w/ hull LC, sponson PC

Fast Attack:
Hellhound w/ stubber, EA, Dozer blade
Hellhound w/ stubber, EA, Dozer blade

I want to test this list for 5th. I'm thinking of dropping one of the grenadier squads and reducing the size of the other one to see if I can get an AF squad in there. I'll have to play around with it tonight. Points are really tight.

Capt K

Out of curiosity, why have you got the Command HQ in a Chimera? It's not tooled for tankbusting - is it so you can battletaxi the Termie squad?

Death By Monkeys wrote:Out of curiosity, why have you got the Command HQ in a Chimera? It's not tooled for tankbusting - is it so you can battletaxi the Termie squad?

It's there to give me the option to ferry around units on a per mission basis, yes. So in one mission I may want to taxi the termies, in another, I may want to taxi the 2 flamer command squad or a grenadier squad.

Capt K

Twenty men at 1750? Twenty?

You are aware that you're playing Guard right?

BYE

actually i count 56 men, which is still a minimal amount for a guard army.

it looks ok though. still a couple of things to work on.

your command squad dosent need flamers. by the time youll get to use them the enemy will be on top of you anyway. a heavy bolder and a plasma gun would be better.

you can probably save a few points by taking the heavy stubber and dozer blades off the hellhounds. if you move them they can only fire one gun anyway.

i think the grek knighsare a big points drain, and although they are a good counter charge units, rounghriders do a similar job and are cheaper.

if you drop them get annother platoon with heavy bolters and plasma guns.

Regwon wrote:actually i count 56 men, which is still a minimal amount for a guard army.

I only count infantry squads, as everything else is usually in smaller, fragile and more expensive units, therefore don't contribute anything to 'numbers' because you want to keep them alive. Infantry Squads on the other hand, are 100% expendable, therefore if you have less than 60 in any army 1250 and above, you're not doing something correctly.

BYE

You do need more men.

In 5th you need Infantry to take obj. and your IG will get killed on the way to the obj.

Um, explain to me then how adding more men is going to solve problems vs. daemons, orks, and chaos? 60 guardsman in an army doesn't leave much room for tanks. No amount of guardsmen is going to stop 10 bloodcrushers or 180+ orks...or a huge unit of Nob bikers. You need tanks for that. 5th edition combat rez make IG squads disappear faster in CC than they used to.

Capt K

your command squad dosent need flamers. by the time youll get to use them the enemy will be on top of you anyway. a heavy bolder and a plasma gun would be better.

They are there as a counter assault unit. When something hits my lines and wipes out a unit, they are there to bake them with flamers. It works great vs. hordes since they won't be able to consolidate into a new unit.

you can probably save a few points by taking the heavy stubber and dozer blades off the hellhounds. if you move them they can only fire one gun anyway.

The stubber is there so I can get more shots with the tank if I move with it. The dozer blades are there to ensure I don't immoblize myself at critical moments if I need to move through cover.

i think the grek knighsare a big points drain, and although they are a good counter charge units, rounghriders do a similar job and are cheaper.

GK are an excellent counter charge unit...the best that IG can buy. They can be a points drain, but they also bring to the table a Hood, and decent mid range shooting. RR suck. My opinions of them currently say they still suck. However, like with everything else in the IG codex, they are worth looking at again in 5th. The problem is that they only work once, and vs. certain things...despite the Str 5 power weapons...are still ineffective. I will play a few games with them though and see if they are worth a damn in 5th. Thanks for the feedback.

Capt K

Taking Objectives? LOL. Most likely I will hold one...maybe two and force my opponent off theirs by shooting or using tanks as contesting units late in the game. IG are terrible for holding objectives. For my IG well timed usage of the Take Cover rule will help somewhat as it pins them down, adds +1 to their save, but still keeps them from running away. I see this as being most useful late in the game.

Capt K

ghostmaker wrote:You do need more men.

In 5th you need Infantry to take obj. and your IG will get killed on the way to the obj.

If I switch the grenadiers for a platoon I need to shave points elsewhere. I tried that build and wasn't pleased since I had less mobile firepower. Would dropping the hellhounds, adding a 3rd russ and adding a second platoon work better? I don't see it that way. HH are great for punking out units with coversaves...and rapes orks. I need this list to be able to deal with various ork builds since everyone and their mom seem to be playing them these days...

Capt K

H.B.M.C. wrote:Twenty men at 1750? Twenty?

You are aware that you're playing Guard right?

BYE

CaptKaruthors wrote:For my IG well timed usage of the Take Cover rule will help somewhat as it pins them down, adds +1 to their save, but still keeps them from running away. I see this as being most useful late in the game.

How does it keep them from running away...they can still break. Unless of course you simply mean the extra resiliancy.

How does it keep them from running away...they can still break. Unless of course you simply mean the extra resiliancy.

That's exactly what I meant. Combine that with no modifiers for being below 50% (Iron D.) and a reroll to their Ld with a standard. It will take some effort by the opponent to make them to run off of my objective. It's basically like shooting at marines at that point. If I use my vehicles as blockers to the opponents advance I can keep my units alive longer as well. The only real weakness will be close combat since combat rez absolutely kills guard at an astronomical rate, hence the inclusion of GK termies.

Capt K

Your ID units will be the first target, right after the unit with the standard. If you hide them behind Russes, it'll be their russ, the standard, then ID units.

Vehicles cannot be used to block advance unless you plan on not having them fire.

For IG, that is not a valid tactic.

CK,

Are you free for a week night game after 7/15/08? I can pit my marnies or guard against them and see how they do.

Captain Karuthors, you posted this for comments and criticism. So far, you have posted more than everybody else combined on here, defending your army list. If you really want advice, listen to what these people have to say, and stop defending your list so much.

As far as what I would say:

Command Platoon:
Take the Honorifica off. It's 75 points for that due, where you could just buy an HSO for 70 points. Also, anti-tank squads with lascannons suck. Those are firemagnets, and will DIE horribly. Screw shooting at your leadership centers, I'm going for those lascannon teams and then your grenadiers! 6 men with 3 high-points guns and a 5+ armor, maybe 4+ cover is not smart. That = death. More infantry squads.

4 GKT's isn't going to make a huge difference. Maybe against a squad of space marines, sure. But with only one wound each, and only a 5+ invulnerable save, they aren't worth the points at that small of a group. If you want a hood, take the 20pt inquisitor. If you want a counter assault unit, take rough riders or a 5+ unit of GKT's. Even then, I would stick with shooting....

Infantry platoon: Poopey. Your's is way to small for 5th. The grenadiers are not worth their points unless they are in a chimera, which you haven't purchased for them. And since you took them as grenadiers instead of stormtroopers, you can't infiltrate or deepstrike them. So they walk? Drop those turds and get some more infantry.

Tanks: I like all your tanks, actually. The only thing I would consider changing, is replacing the LC on the demolisher with a heavy bolter, and putting heavy stubbers on the russes as well as the hellhounds. More shots = more death.

Anyway, your list is too minimized. You've sunk points on things that you don't need, and you don't have enough PBIs. Go ahead, and play the list if you want to test it - assuming you've got the models. But I would seriously suggest revamping your ideas here.

Jhagadurn wrote:

Command Platoon:
Take the Honorifica off. It's 75 points for that due, where you could just buy an HSO for 70 points.

A JO with Honorifica is 65 points, not 75.

Anyway, just take a basic JO, since all IG officers die easily in CC anyway.

But an JO with honorifica has a ld 9 bubble. Coupled with ID, that's the same cost as an HSO, but with the extra utility of the ID. Couple that with the standard, and you've got an 81 point unit with no weapons anyone need worry about. It's the safest way to keep your guys in the fight.

Except in 5E, that unit gets shot to death as soon as possible.

Remove the linchpin, the rest shall fall.

Stelek wrote:Except in 5E, that unit gets shot to death as soon as possible.

Uhh... how do you figure that?

Current Rules:

Pass an Ld check and fire at whatever you want.


New Rules:

Infantry block LOS and if they don't they provide a cover save.



If anything, HQ units are harder to kill with the new LOS rules. Besides, any Guard Commander worth his salt certainly isn't sitting such a squad in the open...

BYE

Killing that unit should be fairly simple even with a cover save if you figure weapons like heavy bolters, lootaz, scatter lasers or any other long range rapid fire weaponry.

....well worth allowing them a 4+ cover save in order to hinder 'YOUR ARMY' by their death rather than blowing a unit off the table that has no cover.

4+ cover doesnt really mean that much when you consider a unit as small, valuable, and squishy like an HQ section.

Captain Karuthors, you posted this for comments and criticism. So far, you have posted more than everybody else combined on here, defending your army list. If you really want advice, listen to what these people have to say, and stop defending your list so much.

Firstly, I am defending it because nobody has really offered any real sensible crits other than "take more men" or "your command squads suck and will die comments". If there isn't any real well thought out reasons for their logic, then I should defend my list. What I would like to see is a discussion on how 5th edition makes this list flexible enough to win games. 5th edition makes certain units in this list more flexible than in the past. I am very open to crits, but their has to be some tactical rationale behind the crit itself...i.e. why switch things out? What is their role in early and late games?

Command Platoon:
Take the Honorifica off. It's 75 points for that dude, where you could just buy an HSO for 70 points. Also, anti-tank squads with lascannons suck. Those are firemagnets, and will DIE horribly. Screw shooting at your leadership centers, I'm going for those lascannon teams and then your grenadiers! 6 men with 3 high-points guns and a 5+ armor, maybe 4+ cover is not smart. That = death. More infantry squads.

See? This is what I am talking about. Before giving comments, do a little homework first. A JO with Honorifica is 5pts cheaper than an HSO. An infantry squad with LC costs 85pts. For 120pts. I get 2 more LC into my list. They have sharpshooters to maximize their shooting. IG need the AP2 for hard targets. So I'd be trading 2 LC's for more lasguns? Please explain to me why you feel that's a better deal?

4 GKT's isn't going to make a huge difference. Maybe against a squad of space marines, sure. But with only one wound each, and only a 5+ invulnerable save, they aren't worth the points at that small of a group. If you want a hood, take the 20pt inquisitor. If you want a counter assault unit, take rough riders or a 5+ unit of GKT's. Even then, I would stick with shooting....

*sigh* Again, being a small unit allows me to position them in a way that they act as a linebacker unit. 4 GK termies will easily win a combat in 5th if they charge based on combat res. The hood is a bonus that is rolled into a nice little counter punch package. Vs. Chaos they do extremely well. Sacred Incense gives them that boost. I have toyed around with dropping them from the list, but it exposes the IG to have zero counter assault. IG have no decent counter assault units that are sustainable. RR are garbage, what use is RR vs. Daemon armies or orks? GK termies give the IG a sustainable CC unit that will do their fair share of damage before they die. Lastly, again do your homework. A 20pt Inquisitor is only LD8....LD9 with a familiar. Giving him a hood is a waste since most of the best psychic power users are a LD10. I could take an inquisitor lord, but then I am forced to take a unit of worthless $hitbags with him...no thanks...I'd rather take the Termies at that point.

Infantry platoon: Poopey. Your's is way to small for 5th. The grenadiers are not worth their points unless they are in a chimera, which you haven't purchased for them. And since you took them as grenadiers instead of stormtroopers, you can't infiltrate or deepstrike them. So they walk? Drop those turds and get some more infantry.

FYI, one of the Grenadiers can use the chimera from the command squad. Have you even played 5th? I agree with you though in terms of whether or not they'll make an impact in my army. So most likely, I will drop them. Agreed that the infantry section need another look.

Tanks: I like all your tanks, actually. The only thing I would consider changing, is replacing the LC on the demolisher with a heavy bolter, and putting heavy stubbers on the russes as well as the hellhounds. More shots = more death.

Yeah, I plan on droping the LC, PC loadout and just going with hull HB and sponson HB's. It also saves me points.

Capt K

Your ID units will be the first target, right after the unit with the standard. If you hide them behind Russes, it'll be their russ, the standard, then ID units.

Noted. But there is always the possibility that they are hiding behind a piece of terrain that the opponent cannot see through. If you shoot my russ, that's fine since it still can become a wreck if it dies. I can advance 6" and still shoot. It's a slow advance, an advance none the less.

Vehicles cannot be used to block advance unless you plan on not having them fire.

6" can still shoot, right?

For IG, that is not a valid tactic.

I agree to a point. But in the game with multiple loot counters, I have to advance at some point to take objectives or to move into a position to possibly shoot the opponent off theirs.

I will be making a list revision and posting it shortly.

Capt K

Revised list:

HQ:

J/O w/ honorifica, I.D., standard bearer, mortar, mounted in chimera with Hull Heavy Flamer, multilaser.
Anti Tank squad LC, w/ sharpshooters
Fire Support Tank squad with 2 AC, one HB w/ sharpshooters

TROOPS:

command squad w/ I.D., w/ 1 flamer, mortar
10 guardsmen, LC, PG
10 guardsmen, LC, PG

command squad w/ I.D., w/ 4 meltaguns, sharpshooters, mounted in chimera w/ Multilaser, hull HF.
10 guardsmen, LC, PG
10 guardsmen, LC, PG
5 man reminant squad w/ flamer

ELITES:

10 ratling snipers

HEAVY SUPPORT:

Leman Russ w/ hull HB
Leman Russ Demolisher w/ hull HB, sponson HB's, EA

FAST ATTACK:

Hellhound w/ stubber, EA, Smoke, RTM
Hellhound w/ stubber, EA, Smoke, RTM

More men, better shooting, zero counter assault. 1750pts.

Capt K

Possibly. I'll have to check with the Mrs.

Capt K

Valhallan42nd wrote:CK,

Are you free for a week night game after 7/15/08? I can pit my marnies or guard against them and see how they do.

H.B.M.C. wrote:

Stelek wrote:Except in 5E, that unit gets shot to death as soon as possible.

Uhh... how do you figure that?

Current Rules:

Pass an Ld check and fire at whatever you want.


New Rules:

Infantry block LOS and if they don't they provide a cover save.



If anything, HQ units are harder to kill with the new LOS rules. Besides, any Guard Commander worth his salt certainly isn't sitting such a squad in the open...

That is absolutely not correct.

Without your own terrain (i.e. vehicles) in an infantry based IG army the HQ's get cover saves.

How is "invulnerable" harder to kill than "4+ cover saves".

It isn't. IG HQ's are alot easier to kill in 5E because without the right terrain...you are toast.

They are also vulnerable to reserve units.

Gee Stelek, you make it sound like IG have no chance in hell in 5th...LOL.

Capt K

Well sheeit. I can't believe I got my math wrong on the HO thing, sorry about that guys. I'm at work, I got no codecies here.


Anyway....

Capt., I will still advise you not to take any heavy weapons squads. Again, it's your choice, but that's what.... 130+ points of high end weaponry, strapped to 6 dudes with a 5+ save? Sure, it's cheaper to get the guns that way, and yes, if you go first, it's more firepower, but only for what, 1, maybe 2 turns? I'd rather have more durable weapons inside infantry platoons or on sentinels, that can take more than 6 bolter shots. My opinion, and I think it's probably a statistical advantage to do it my way, but I personally am not able to do the math to prove it.

Also, switch your demolisher back to plasma cannon sponsons. I've noticed in the 3 game clubs I can play at down here in austin, people are starting to build larger, more blocking pieces of terrain. This means that there are more bottlenecks, which means plasmacannons are really shnazzy. But, if it's different for you, maybe stick with the bolters. Plus, if you get plasmacannons, you can paint cooler colors.

My point about GKTs is not that they are bad - I agree, they are good. But not in such a small group. And anything that would warrant a counter charge of grey knights, you're probably better off shooting anyway. But I definitely don't like the ratlings you've replaced them with. Yeah, snipers get rending, but I think you'd be better served by some deepstriking stormtroopers or hardened vets. You know, min/max.

P.S. - Stelek really enjoys making IG's faults in 5th known to the world, and wants your sympathy.

CaptKaruthors wrote:Gee Stelek, you make it sound like IG have no chance in hell in 5th...LOL.

Capt K

Nope I do not think that. I just think your list as written isn't as good as it could be.

I will endeavour to give you criticism.

CaptKaruthors wrote:J/O w/ honorifica, I.D., standard bearer, mortar, mounted in chimera with Hull Heavy Flamer, multilaser.
Anti Tank squad LC, w/ sharpshooters
Fire Support Tank squad with 2 AC, one HB w/ sharpshooters

The Chimera will be picked off after the hellhounds are.

The AT squad will also be picked off.
If the enemy feels threatend, he'll also pick off the FS squad.

Remember, you can take 6 HB shots to these units and the gunners manning the weapons have to save or die.

Not a good fun place.

CaptKaruthors wrote:command squad w/ I.D., w/ 1 flamer, mortar
10 guardsmen, LC, PG
10 guardsmen, LC, PG

The command squad has a flamer for no reason. Just live with the mortar.

The PG + LC combo is pointless except in the 13-24" range.

You fire 2 BS3 shots that kill marines.
1 hits.
You also fire 8 shots from lasguns.
4 hit.
So you will drop a marine.

At 12", you fire 3 shots (1.5 hit) but also fire 16 lasgun shots of which 8 hit.

Let's say you hit with 2 AP2 hits and 8 lasgun hits.

Unless the squad is at full strength, odds are you'll simply kill the same marine twice.

Not good.

CaptKaruthors wrote:command squad w/ I.D., w/ 4 meltaguns, sharpshooters, mounted in chimera w/ Multilaser, hull HF.
10 guardsmen, LC, PG
10 guardsmen, LC, PG
5 man remnant squad w/ flamer

The command squad doesn't have deep strike but instead has a chimera with crappy weapons. A multilaser + HB or 2 heavy flamers. No exceptions to the rules, thank you.

The remnant squad doesn't have deep strike because you are going to do wonderful things with a slow IG unit with a flamer and 4 lasguns?

CaptKaruthors wrote:
10 ratling snipers

Not a bad unit. Also not great. For 11 points what else could you get?

Hmmm...battle sisters.

CaptKaruthors wrote:

Leman Russ w/ hull HB
Leman Russ Demolisher w/ hull HB, sponson HB's, EA

Demolishers are junk--you get one shot then get lit up on the side armor and lose the cannon.
Go with Russes and 3 HB. Screw everything else, it's a waste of points.

CaptKaruthors wrote:
Hellhound w/ stubber, EA, Smoke, RTM
Hellhound w/ stubber, EA, Smoke, RTM

Hellhounds with RTM? They need to run out there and fire. It's a 24" gun, not 36". You will die. The more points you spend, the more you lose.

Overall this list is a D.