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So, I was reading the background in the new 5th, and wow, that's depressing.

It's all too much.

I know it's the Grimdark, but they've just moved into Ultrablack. I hate to admit it, but I felt a wee bit sorry for us humans. Stupid Xenos...

Do you think this time line-advance was needed?

Hey, Alpharius was warned this would happen. This could've been prevented, but noooooo...

AAhhh star child maybe?

Death By Monkeys wrote:Hey, Alpharius was warned this would happen. This could've been prevented, but noooooo...

I need to pick up that Omnibus... I still haven't read those novels.

Valhallan42nd wrote:So, I was reading the background in the new 5th, and wow, that's depressing.

Spoiler:

The Golden Throne failing, the Astromonicon dimming, Mankind moving toward a future where the daemons will rend us from within, etc, etc.

It's all too much.

I know it's the Grimdark, but they've just moved into Ultrablack. I hate to admit it, but I felt a wee bit sorry for us humans. Stupid Xenos...

Do you think this time line-advance was needed?

Advance the timeline to keep up in pace = yes, 42k is now!
Change the fluff from eternal war to humans loose=

We need no superthreat or such nonsense,just some reasonable fluff to bring our minis on the table.
Bad decision to undo Humanity. Enough conflicts available,the expansion from planet-to system-and now galaxywide
battles helps not 40k.Maybe a "planet/fall/strike" book sells better with ultrablack fluff ?

Hint for relief: Rulebook page 116 left side => Imperius Dominatus
Today,M42 looks as = m23 - m30. Tomorrow, great crusadeMkII (this time complete and successful).

Maybe the Emperor dying might not be a bad thing. Imagine him entering the warp fully. The being of ultimate order arriving in the place of ultimate chaos. The Cosmos will be overturned, and many will die in the ultimate struggle, but perhaps Order will win. After all, there are more faithful to the Emperor than there are to the Fickle Four.

Death By Monkeys wrote:Hey, Alpharius was warned this would happen. This could've been prevented, but noooooo...

*warning, spoiler for some below*

Lets think about that for a moment, Alpharius knew and went with chaos because it was the best for mankind, how do we know the Alpha legion is still not doing its best to save us? I mean they seperate themselves from all the other legions and live on there own and there battle cry is "For the Emperor." Which up till i read legion i thought was them mocking the imperium.

But my theory is that Alpharius or omegon or both are very much alive and that they have sperated themselves from both order and chaos for 10 thousand years so that they can do something pivotal in the upcoming period of darkness.....I think the Alpha legion are still good and are going to help save the imperium when the foretold end times come, they want to change it.

Anyway those are my musings, enjoy.

they did their best for humanity,to save us.

Emperor as deity? Beats the "craptastic four" 3times a day

Alpha legion loyal? IMHO it was anopen end book.You can pull them as traitor or loyal from it.
Maybe even Alpharius (or Omegon) didn't know?

Hold up....if you think about it, the forces of Chaos can never be beaten, not while there is a "warp" and not while mankind and other beings in the galaxy still have certain emotions and drives....every day a few billion humans give in to their own greed, jealousy, hatred, fear, love, extasy, etc etc...so the warp has a contant feed of emotions which constantly feed the four powerful Gods of Chaos....not so dissimilar to the Emperor gathering his soul bindings to survive in his current incarnation.....

You could argue there are far more beings giving into their base emotions then there are psykers being fed to the Golden Throne....

So even if the Emperor died and finally entered the warp, what would his essence feed on? Love, devotion, order (what ever that is).....or would he be simply swallowed by the other great warp beings......

My own opinion is, Chaos wins the day, baths the galaxy in "darkness", but in turn creates a new order, that eventually balances itself out....almost like the settling of the "dust" after the big bang....and from the ashes comes a new race (Old Ones) and the whole cycle begins again.....

Delephont wrote:Hold up....if you think about it, the forces of Chaos can never be beaten, not while there is a "warp" and not while mankind and other beings in the galaxy still have certain emotions and drives....every day a few billion humans give in to their own greed, jealousy, hatred, fear, love, extasy, etc etc...so the warp has a contant feed of emotions which constantly feed the four powerful Gods of Chaos

NEVER be beaten?

Necrons win = no emotions,sector wide nullshields = chaos dead.
nids win = no useful emotions,out of food = chaos dead.
Orks win = all emotions for gork and mork = nothing for chaos = chaos dead.
Eldar win = kill slanesh,unbalance chaos,internal fights = chaos ruined.
Human win = chaos may survive as long humans not notice their power = chaos in eternal fear cowering.

IF anyone wins,chaos get hurt badly. Chaos needs most of the races,but they don't need chaos.

My own opinion is, Chaos wins the day, baths the galaxy in "darkness", but in turn creates a new order, that eventually balances itself out....almost like the settling of the "dust" after the big bang....and from the ashes comes a new race (Old Ones) and the whole cycle begins again.....

Chaos IS unbalanced and unable to create anything.Its good at twisting and turning existing beeings.
order from chaos
I can go with your cycle idea. :S But chaos WINS ?

with the marine codex coning soon, my money is on marines are pushed to their limits calling on their heroes to lead them. guard save humans and the inqusition goes to chaos. ends in fewer SMs, lots of dead humies and a new chaos god

Isn't this all just the ploting of Tzeentch, perhaps he is tired of the never changing Chaos Gods and decides to help mankind take out the other three, so he can restart the game...

I dont know much about this topic, but i feel like getting involved...

Due to the high dedication for the Emperor, think about the morale impact on the Imperium, though (holy )
They would basically at each others throat and the Imperium would crumble like me eating crackers, hahaha( i meant the cracker)
And after they (I predict) the Imperium kills themselves from inside out, the orks and chaos would then attack the Imperium and quickly be in control.
So basically, the Imperiums screwed....... Thats just what i think of course, though

Just felt like throwing that idea out

Valhallan42nd wrote:
I need to pick up that Omnibus... I still haven't read those novels.

Theres already a Horus Heresy omnibus? Are you sure?

1hadhq wrote:
Advance the timeline to keep up in pace = yes, 42k is now!
Change the fluff from eternal war to humans loose=

We need no superthreat or such nonsense,just some reasonable fluff to bring our minis on the table.
Bad decision to undo Humanity. Enough conflicts available,the expansion from planet-to system-and now galaxywide
battles helps not 40k.Maybe a "planet/fall/strike" book sells better with ultrablack fluff ?

I´d much rather have them advance the timeline and figure out something new, rather than rape currenct fluff into ridicule.
I love the fluff, and its the fluff that keeps me in the hobby at all. Theres quite a few jumps in timelines as is anyways ... at least bookwise there is.

1hadhq wrote:

NEVER be beaten?
Human win = chaos may survive as long humans not notice their power = chaos in eternal fear cowering.

Like he said, chaos cant be beaten as long as there are other beings (and their emotions) around for chaos to feed on. With humans, thats quite clearly the case, so as long as theres humans... there will be chaos. Chaos is already a master at twisting and turning humans into submission, why would that change in any way, when there are no more BoyzZ around, or Eldar, or Tau ... roight, it wouldnt.

1hadhq wrote:
NEVER be beaten?

Necrons win = no emotions,sector wide nullshields = chaos dead.
nids win = no useful emotions,out of food = chaos dead.
Orks win = all emotions for gork and mork = nothing for chaos = chaos dead.
Eldar win = kill slanesh,unbalance chaos,internal fights = chaos ruined.
Human win = chaos may survive as long humans not notice their power = chaos in eternal fear cowering.

IF anyone wins,chaos get hurt badly. Chaos needs most of the races,but they don't need chaos.

This statement is wrong on so many levels I'm not sure where to begin.....it goes against almost every slice of fluff GW have ever released, and logic itself.

The Necrons fear Chaos more than anyone else, hence the reason they "created" the Pariah gene in the first place. They intended to seperate real space from the Warp, but thats the best they could hope for.....but with thier insatiable hunger, and constant zest for harvesting the races, how long would a Necron win last anyway, as they gradually deplete the galaxy of life forms, they themselves must then return to slumber until such time as the galaxy is once again teeming with life. Fail.

I'll give you the Nids, but considering the Nids would be fighting against everyone and his dog, including Choas....a Nid win is just not on the cards. Fail.

Orks? who cares if the orks kill in the name of Mork and Gork or whatever, since when did Chaos need direct worship, to have the emotions themselves is enough, the very act of having an "emotion" is to feed the warp and its dark gods....so an Ork win is definately a win for Chaos....Especially as Orks were created by the Old Ones to be in close contact with the Warp. Fail.

Eldar, oh my god, their on their last legs....and as far as Eldar destroying Slannesh, forget it....this scenario is so obscure its not worth discussing. Fail.

Humans, finding their own power and Chaos cowering in fear.....well, all I can say is that hasn't happened in 10,000+ years, so why now? and not to mention, this "Power" you go on about....it would need to render mankind absolutely emotionless.....fail.

Delephont wrote:

I´m glad you found the time to go into more detail with this.
And I really couldnt agree more with you. Thank you.

Orks win = bye-bye big 4, Hello Gork & Mork!

Old RT fluff talkz about how Gork and Mork bully wimpy khorne/nurgle around like they was grotz!

Whilst you all are commendably well versed in 40k lore (much more so than myself), I thought I'd throw in my main idea.

I think without exception, all of the deities in the 40k universe are reactive. Therefore, thier success as gods depends entirely upon their reflective races. From what I've heard, the new rulebook suggests that Chaos is in the acsendant; that is, their ''ground forces'' have enjoyed much recent success. After the recent conflict around the Cadian gate this seems all the more reasonable.

I am mainly of this mindset due to my thoughts on the Horus Heresy. Surely the Chaos gods were at their most powerful at the siege of Terra, reflected in person by Horus himself. With the defeat of Chaos and the subsequent explosion of Imperial faith from the Ecclesiarchy, the pendulum switched sides again. Ironically, the Emperor had to get disabled for this to occur, but could this not have been a convienient time for him to ascend to godhood?

I'm sure GW is keeping things ticking along with all this doom and gloom. However, the constant wax and wane of affairs will give them admirable scope for many years. Three editions down the line, Chaos could be in a temporary retreat, allowing the Imperium to expand, discover new races etc which will provide further life for the game.

Anti-Mag

I can agree to a point....definately. However, if enough people decry a need for "change" I think a Galaxy steeped in eternal Chaos could definately be a playable scenario....

Imagine, Humanity only becoming pockets of resistance, of survivalists.....or existing as "pirate warbands" roaming the galaxy....almost like Mad Max on a galactic scale.

You could still have a constant stream of incoming Tyranids, Orks in continous battle with anything they find, Eldar being Eldar and doing what they do best...etc etc.

When you really think about it, a Galaxy steeped in Chaos wouldn't probably look that different from how it does today.....ok, rather than an Imperial Governor reigning over whole Hive Worlds, where only the "elite" have any kind of comfortable living, you'd have a Chaos Overlord...doing exactly the same thing.

All of the fluff I've read in books like Hammer Of Deamons, and Ultramarines trilogy with the Iron Warriors home world, etc...where events take place on a Deamon world, it struck me as being as barbaric as any world ruled by the Imperium....

So IMHO Chaos simply wants to destroy the Imperium as opposed to destroying mankind per say, as mentioned above, Chaos needs mankind, Choas doesn't need the Imperium and its dogma and puesdo religion.

So, warp space is defined and reformed by powerful thoughts and emotions. What about love? Love expressed as devotion, faith, peity. Should the God-Emperor of Man ascend in His Fullness into the Warp, what about the power that Mankind's devotion lends to Him? For every cultist ever born, there were thousands of men who died in service to the Emperor. Where did their souls go? Would they flock to Him, the brightest Beacon of hope and order in the Warp?

Hmmm... May we never know.

Delephont wrote:
This statement is wrong on so many levels I'm not sure where to begin.....it goes against almost every slice of fluff GW have ever released, and logic itself.

I'm sure where to start
Claim Logic for your answer?

The Necrons fear Chaos more than anyone else, hence the reason they "created" the Pariah gene in the first place. They intended to seperate real space from the Warp, but thats the best they could hope for.....but with thier insatiable hunger, and constant zest for harvesting the races, how long would a Necron win last anyway, as they gradually deplete the galaxy of life forms, they themselves must then return to slumber until such time as the galaxy is once again teeming with life.

The C'tan and their necrons had a "win the galaxy" before.
Their interest is in the material plane , not the warp. If anyone has a technical solve to arrest the warp and its inhabitants it
will be the C'Tan/necron.

I'll give you the Nids, but considering the Nids would be fighting against everyone and his dog, including Choas....a Nid win is just not on the cards.

If the nids devoured the whole biomass,there wouldn't be any creatures with emotions left.Because the nids leave a empty galaxy
for new ressources,not even nid-emotions.

Orks? who cares if the orks kill in the name of Mork and Gork or whatever, since when did Chaos need direct worship, to have the emotions themselves is enough, the very act of having an "emotion" is to feed the warp and its dark gods....so an Ork win is definately a win for Chaos....Especially as Orks were created by the Old Ones to be in close contact with the Warp.

Chaos didn't need worship?

Why should orks generate beeings like gork and mork when everything they do is for chaos?
The old ones wanted to control the warp and use it as tool,so a warpcontact is not uncommon in their plans?

Eldar, oh my god, their on their last legs....and as far as Eldar destroying Slannesh, forget it....this scenario is so obscure its not worth discussing.

Inserted them to have a complete list,but ignoring anyone is the beginning to loose against this faction.

Humans, finding their own power and Chaos cowering in fear.....well, all I can say is that hasn't happened in 10,000+ years, so why now? and not to mention, this "Power" you go on about....it would need to render mankind absolutely emotionless.....

Delephont wrote:

However, if enough people decry a need for "change" I think a Galaxy steeped in eternal Chaos could definately be a playable scenario....

Imagine, Humanity only becoming pockets of resistance, of survivalists.....or existing as "pirate warbands" roaming the galaxy....almost like Mad Max on a galactic scale.

A shattered mankind won't survive the next few hundred years.
Ends the fluff at 43k ? Remember the period between 23k and 30k. May go one time but second try will screw for sure.

A galaxy of eternal chaos is unplayable (rules change whilst you play ) and no living place for any creature.
Standard galaxy= rich on races. Chaos galaxy= demons only. :S

Mad max is nice as a movie but absolut out of reality. Sorry,not an option.

So IMHO Chaos simply wants to destroy the Imperium as opposed to destroying mankind per say, as mentioned above, Chaos needs mankind, Chaos doesn't need the Imperium and its dogma and religion.

A little add here: not the Imperium is described to falter,GW did the"humanity on the brink of destruction" fluff.

I think Delephont was on referring to Mad Max as a classic example of mankind really being on the defensive, at its most desperate.

I think that we share a similar idea Delephont. Living under Imperial rule is obviouslt preferable to toiling away under Chaos dominion, but their totalitarian tendencies share many parallels which makes them both so interesting.
I find the idea of the Imperium with its back to the wall quite an intriguing one, but it would demolish our view of the Imperium as it currently stands. The Imperium sets the battlefield for 40k; it is a concious projection of humanity, allowing us (as humans) to understand the ramifications of invasion, enslavement, etc. No one tries to define the realm of Chaos because it is incomprehensible.
To take away the Imperium (as it stands) as a dominant force could upset the script of the 40k universe. The unending drama of 40k is a delight, but the Imperium needs to remain its solid stage; a platform that allows the villains and heroes of the far future to perform.

At this stage, it looks like we've mostly looked at 2 possibilities...

A) The Emperor dies, and chaos wins...completely.

B) The Emperor dies, and humanity devolves into a survivalist setting...as discussed, the "Mad Max" outcome.

Can I suggest a third, that GW has been pushing since the days of Rogue Trader, and has been hinting at for the last few years...especially in the Inquisitorial fluff in the Inq RPG rulebook and White Dwarf Mags.

C) That the Emperor's physical body finally dies, his soul (the "Star Child" from pg.184, Warhammer Realms of Chaos - "Lost and the Damned") is finally free to be reincarnated...

and the Emperor returns, in a brand new body, just in time to pull humanity back from the mess it's been left in, in his absence.

This is something that has been constantly hinted at in the fluff, especially in the Ian Watson Inquisitor novels, the above reference (which says it straight out), and more recently in the fluff surrounding the Thorian faction of the Inquisition (who don't seem popular with the rest of the Inq, on the off-chance they may be right...)

Think about the fluff outcomes - the period of chaos when the Astronomicon is out for a few months, the human schism (on his return) between believers and non-believers, and the 2nd Great Crusade to re-unite humanity.

Maybe we'll find out in 6th or 7th ed. ?

Padre^.

I think that's definitely feasible, Padre.

The events you've detailed would provide ample substance for continuing the 40k saga. I like the idea of intercine civil war, although I doubt a reborn Emperor would feature in the tabletop game. I suppose this links with the prophetic return of several primarchs who have dissapeared; only fair seeing as many of the fallen Primarchs still exist in the Eye Of Terror.

Some of the ancient background stuff is great. I am fond of the age of Apostasy, and all the madness that surrounded it. I know that the game is perhaps choked with Imperial offshoots (Daemonhunters, Witch Hunters, Deathwatch) but I would love to see an Adeptus Mechanicus codex. The potential there is massive; squads of Skitarri supported by weird and wonderful machines. They could easily be altered by Chaos players, maybe representing the forces which provide Titan support for the ruinous powers. I'm sure Iron Warriors players would take them to heart.

Yea, I think Padre's 3rd option nailed it. I would sum it up generally as such:

1: The Emperor gets a cold/dies/steps out to lunch.
2: This causes Mankind to be suddenly REALLY over extended, making much of the "fringe" areas as impossible to control as the limits of Solar Macharius' crusade.
3: Mankind fractures, with factions going independant or out and out traitor/heretic/chaosy.
4: Xenos and chaos smash many previously "solid" systems, pushing the Imperium back on its heels.
5: SPACE CRUSADE!
(said with same voice as "PIGS IN SPACE!")
6: LatD is rereleased to cover traitor/heretic guard.
7: Admech released to represent independant worshippers of the Machine God/titan support of chaos.
7: There is much rejoycing.
8: Apocalypse: Gods and Other Gods released. Features data sheets for Primarchs, daemon and otherwise, those fellows in the pointy hats who guard the emperor, as well as THE UBAR characters and legends of other races. Perhaps even the Emperor post flu/death/lunch break.
9: Everyone dies, Squats rereleased to take over the universe.

Wehrkind wrote:Yea, I think Padre's 3rd option nailed it. I would sum it up generally as such:

1: The Emperor gets a cold/dies/steps out to lunch.
2: This causes Mankind to be suddenly REALLY over extended, making much of the "fringe" areas as impossible to control as the limits of Solar Macharius' crusade.
3: Mankind fractures, with factions going independant or out and out traitor/heretic/chaosy.
4: Xenos and chaos smash many previously "solid" systems, pushing the Imperium back on its heels.
5: SPACE CRUSADE!
(said with same voice as "PIGS IN SPACE!")
6: LatD is rereleased to cover traitor/heretic guard.
7: Admech released to represent independant worshippers of the Machine God/titan support of chaos.
7: There is much rejoycing.
8: Apocalypse: Gods and Other Gods released. Features data sheets for Primarchs, daemon and otherwise, those fellows in the pointy hats who guard the emperor, as well as THE UBAR characters and legends of other races. Perhaps even the Emperor post flu/death/lunch break.
9: Everyone dies, Squats rereleased to take over the universe.

you know GW's plan for the coming years?

sounds really workable.Fits in the rumored release of codices.Interesting summary.

Squats FTW

Squats... the true evil in the galaxy, and justly consigned to the scapheap.

Running with the idea that the Emperor's physical body dies and his mind goes into the warp or what ever. I think it would make sense for him to come back but in the same fashion the primarchs started in. So when he's in the warp the chaos gods get a hold of him and hide him from the imperium and try to corrupt him to work for them as their ultimate weapon. As all of this is happening the imperium begins to break down and they abandon the outer colonies and fall back to the key strong hold and most important areas of the imperiums control (eg: Terra, Armageddon, etc). Other races realize this and start attack them humanity digs in and holds its ground. Chaos makes it's way for the golden throne to tear it down so humanity has no symbols left to rely on, but as chaos presses forward what remaining primarchs there is return and defend the throne themselves. The daemonhunters(inquestion or what ever) go in search of the Emperor while everyone is distracted, they travel into the eye of terror to find him, were the wage war against the 4 chaos gods directly. Finding the Emperor and retrieving him but at a great cost as much of the inquestion is destroyed or corrupted into fighting for chaos the inquestion begins to fight itself. Those that are corrupted tell chaos of the imperiums weaknesses. The emperor is returned to the throne, were the primarchs safeguard him them selfs. With new found hope the imperium push the enemies back for now but at a very heavy toll. The imperium pushes back, not fully reclaiming what was lost but enough to send the forces of chaos running again.


I'm not quiet as knowledgeable as everyone hear but i think that sounds like it could be a pretty solid storyline they could run with. It reads really fast there but i'm sure they could find a drag it out and throw a bunch of new stuff in there. Thats just my 2 cents.

first off, I agree that GW will have something big for next edition, or summer series, or whatever, so, by the time our grandkids inherit our armies, or by the time GW gets their next set of bills/taxes and realizes they need more money, we find out.

I do like the idea of Emporer and Primarchs coming back, would be great in apoc... maybe someone could kill Guiliman all the way this time.

Saber, do you have any idea how many Grey Knight pl;ayers you would piss the fukk off by having Inquisitorial forces corrupting, as that would include the Grey Knights, and GK players are pretty damn proud of the fact that they dont corrupt (I have lost several half-joking fluff arguments with a local GK player as to why his knights killed my marines). just mentioning a point there.

Yea, I want the Imperium to win, but all of this still leaves my chapter fukked up the arse, as theyre fluff has them in a "bubble" of sorts along the Eye of Terror (Tzentch decided he wanted to toy around wiht some imperium forces in his own controlled environment, my chapter, after one hell of a battle, and the 2nd in command getting to be the big number 1, decided that they need to be a legion, so they become one. (and the stasis bubble thing keeping them stuck means that the Imperium tech is not anywhere nearly as degraded as in the Imperium abroad))

That said, it would be cool to see the tables flipped... Emporer leading mankind in the never ending war against chaos, trying to beat them back further and further into the Eye, healing the great weeping sore into realspace as they push (the Emporers doing) so it would go from:
Imperium: SHIIIII!!!!TTTTTT
Chaos:KIIIIIIIIILLLLLLLL!!!!!!!!
Orks:wagh?!?!?!?!!!!!!!!!!!
Crons:purge...
Nids:eateateateat
Eldar:we're better than you...
Dark Eldar:we like sex and piracy...
Tau:"Can we has an empire too? please?"

to:
Imperium:KIIIIIIIIILLLLLLLL!!!!!!!!
Chaos: SHIIIII!!!!TTTTTT
Orks:wagh?!?!?!?!!!!!!!!!!!
Crons:purge...
Nids:eateateateat
Eldar:we're better than you...
Dark Eldar:we like sex and piracy...
Tau:"Can we has an empire too? please?"

notice how its the same but different, 40k gameplay and fluff remain the same(ish), and we get our change of scenery. Humanity is totally fukked, just kinda fukked, they now have a secure area without fighting, a safe place where tech can be recovered. and a hell of a lot of fringe area (most of Empire) that is exactly the same... Chaos and DE still raid and attack, tryin to kill whtever, crons still purge, nids still eat, CE still... whatever they do, orks still wagh, Just the Empire isnt at imminint death, minimal lifesigns "She cant take much more of this Scotty" levels
there, down from soapbox... (Pants)