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Ok here is an old debate brought up again. Now in 5th Edition, which is the best combo to take as a Imperial guard infantry squad. I was looking at doing the GL/AC combo but was curious what others had to say on it. With the new rules mortars with their ability to pin make a huge come back IMHO., but lack total anti armor capabilities.

Lascannon/plasma is still king(more armour vill start to show up as pillboxes or just as LRs) but other options are more viable at least. Like meltas or as you said mortars sometimes. But with the new glancing rules I dont see ACs beeing all that and GL always was overpriced.

With the no consolidate after assault, flamers might be decent as well.

The GL does have one use I can think of thats new. It'll probally be better in the next Codex. With it's 24 inch assault range and the focus of the game switching to objective capturing. A J.O. squad with 4 GLs place at the back of an advacing platoon will be able to fire through 12" of platoon and still hit the same target as the front squad. That can not be said of any other weapon availble to IG(save the storm bolter).

That being said, I think the Plasma gun is still tops for special weapons. However, I'm still undecided for heavies. I think with so many cover saves that the lascannon it's viable for killing heavy troops(not it's intended purpose, I know) And with vehicles being so damn hard to crack, I'd rather toss melta's or Auto cannons at most.

With the new consolidation rules, J.O. Squads with flamers or plasma are the best counter assault units availible.

In my opinion, J/O + ID and 3 flamers has been the best counter assault unit. ID keeps the men in line from any shooting, then jump out, flame, get assaulted, die.

As far as heavies go, if marines are benefiting from a 4+ cover save, heavy bolters and autocannons become better at killing marines than lascannons.

I think i will still run las/plas squads with 3/ flamers in command squads until i notice a larger amount of MEQs hitting my lines.

GL does nothing other guns can't do better or cheaper. The 2D6-3 Scatter also hurts 'em as well.

Stick to Plasmas, especially with ACs, as the S7 of both guns works well.

Lascannons still reign supreme, but with tanks being tougher we might be needing more DS'ing Meltaguns (until Jervis takes them away in the next Codex).

BYE

I'm a bit leery at using JOs as suicide squads in the off chance I roll Annihilation. Then they end up hiding most of the game and wasting their special weapons.

Usually throw in a Flamer or Plasma remnant squad to do the same thing.

Anti-horde....Heavy Bolter w/ Flamer or Heavy Bolter w/ Grenade Launcher?

Flamers are scarier. They do not miss and cover is (ignored!) everywhere. Units will be in range pretty fast and will end in range in all likeliness, after assaults as the consolidation change keeps them viable targets.
Plus they are not placed one at a time anymore - you will kill more than ever.

I play Tyranids, I am biased (and lacking any Template weapons).

shrug

orchewer wrote:Anti-horde....Heavy Bolter w/ Flamer or Heavy Bolter w/ Grenade Launcher?

Flamer.
I do not use Grenade Launchers at all.

Any word on Grenade Launchers in the new codex? Or will they forever remain as useful as shotguns

Numbers against a Meq squad in cover...

Lascannon: 1/2 (to hit) x 5/6 (to wound) x 1/2 (fail cover save) = 20.8%
Missile Launcher (krak): Same as Lascannon= 20.8%
Missile Launcher (frag): 1/2 (to wound) x 1/3 (fail armour save) = 16.7% per hit
Autocannon: 1/2 (to hit) x 2/1 (# of shots) x 5/6 (to wound) x 1/3 (fail armour save)= 27.8%
Heavy Bolter: 1/2 (to hit) x 3/1 (# of shots) x 2/3 (to wound) x 1/3 (fail armour save)= 33.3%
Mortar: 1/2 (to wound) x 1/3 (fail armour save) = 16.7% per hit

Plasma Rifle: Same as Lascannon= 20.8%
Melta Gun: Same as Lascannon= 20.8%
Grenade Launcher (krak): 1/2 (to hit) x 5/6 (to wound) x 1/3 (fail armour save)= 13.9%
Grenade Launcher (frag): 1/3 (to wound) x 1/3 (fail armour save)= 11.1% per hit
Flamer: 1/2 (to wound) x 1/3 (fail armour save) = 16.7% per hit

Heavy Bolter and Plasma Rifle 80 point squad *shrugs*

Of course, numbers don't mean everything.

orchewer wrote:
Grenade Launcher (frag): 1/3 (to wound) x 1/3 (fail armour save)= 11.1% per hit
Flamer: 1/2 (to wound) x 1/3 (fail armour save) = 16.7% per hit

The part that's hard to quantify on these weapons is "per hit." The new partial hit rules throw off previous assumptions about small template weapons. My experience so far with plasma missiles fired by BS3 guardians is that it's not uncommon to hit 3-5 models with a small template--or as many as 7-8 models if it's deepstriking necrons or other tightly-packed models. That's way more than I ever used to hit with Eldar Missiles.

I haven't tried out grenade launchers yet. But I've been hearing anecdotal stories about mortars in batteries of 3 having new capabilities that they didn't have in 4th.

I know HBMC is a fan of the lascannon. But my experience so far with brightlances (which are actually better than lascannons against AR14) plinking at landraiders is that the chances of actually hurting heavy tanks are so insignificant now that they make the weapons nearly useless. With the new cover saves and damage table cutting the kill odds by an additional 60% or so, multiplied on top of the already less than 30% chance to hit and to pen, I question whether any long-range, immobile antitank weapon will ever work in an antitank role in 5th.

Let me know when the plasma missiles come out for guard =).

I think it might be worth looking at mortars again.

I'm finding flamers to be stupidly good for their points. I'm running squads with 1 lascannon, 1 plasma gun, and 1 flamethrower in ranks 5-6 deep and the flamethrower is definitely making the majority of the kills, especially with the new surplus of Horde armies running around. The new blast scatter rules are helping my Russes quite considerably and even allowing for cover saves my tanks are still accounting for 10-15 models per turn at range, and flamers pile into them when they finally close into the assault. MEQ has an even rougher time as they just don't have the body pool to survive a stand up fight with Guard artillery nor the heavy weapons to pop AV14.

Let me quantify my earlier reply. I find the flamer to be better than the GL, especially as a counter assault weapon. I'd much ratrher run a command squad with 2 flamers to contest than 4 GL's. Not to mention, it's cheaper.

My standard squad load out is PG/LC, with an additional squad of HB/Flamer who's goal is to receive the charge and die in H2H.

With all the cover saves in 5th, I'm rethinking my current lists though. I'm going to be trying to cram as many HB's into my list, as they seem to be the best way to deal with MEQ and Horde, simply by forcing lots of saves at range.

For example, A full platoon of HB's is pumping out 27 shots a turn (PHQ hiding). Horde will whither away and MEQ will fail saves while my cheap squads get a new lease on life with their cover saves. In my theory atleast... I intend to give 2 HB platoons, backed up by a Bassie, a shot to see what can walk up the field under this hail of fire. I'd much rather rely on killing at range with High ROF than hoping my flashlights do more than give a skin rash.

I'm liking HB/F squads more and more, but is there a possibility of a ML renaissance? It's only 5 pts more than an HB, it's got decent anti-tank, and the frag now does hit more models. It's no longer a great anti-meq option, but given that a HB hits 1.5 times, on average, and does roughly one wound to T4 on average, a frag missile only needs to reliably cover two bases to get the same result. Even fully spread squads will be hit twice, and hordey armies will be much more clumped together. I'm sure this has been covered elsewhere, but by my reckoning, MLs will be better than HBs against hordes, and better against AV11+. They can be coupled with the ubiquiitous plamsa, or perhaps even straight up swap in with the flamer. It'd be interested to try.

I figure HBs will excell in heavy weapon squads, and I plan on trying a few squads in my next game.

The weapon I see as the big loser is the autocannon. It's still great against it's wierd little niches (AV11-12, High tougness critters with Invulnerable saves) and decent against everything but AV14 and 2+ saves, but I'm not sure if it's necessary to include them.

Polonius wrote:
The weapon I see as the big loser is the autocannon. It's still great against it's wierd little niches (AV11-12, High tougness critters with Invulnerable saves) and decent against everything but AV14 and 2+ saves, but I'm not sure if it's necessary to include them.

I'm actually thinking the lascannon on this. With the guardsmen's BS, you hit half the time anyways, but now with pillbox vehicles and MEQ getting cover saves...

Though I guess that's why the guard mentality with heavy weapons is take many or take none.

I'm interested in running numbers for Autocannon and Missile Launcher later, but one area I still see advantage Autocannon is against Tyranid Warriors.

The lascannon will still be necessary because it is the only weapon the Imperial Guard have capable of taking out AV14 "reliably". AP2, although less useful, is not insignificant, either. I do agree, however, that in the hands of guardsmen the lascannon has been made less effective on a shot per shot basis, however that does not make it unnecessary unless you intend to run 3 Demolishers for anti tank duties (which, quite honestly, is not that terrible of an idea).

I agree with sourclams here and feel like I should interject the mantra of "Infantry kill tanks. Tanks kill infantry" into this conversation. Shouldn't you be using those pie plates to kill the hordes rather than HBs? Yes, lascannons are less effective, true - but what else are Guard going to use for anti-tank duty? Plasma cannons? Demolisher cannons? (What opponent will let you get that close to their tank with a Demolisher cannon? And unless you're fighting an all drop army, you shouldn't really be running 3 Demolishers anyway...)

Guys who are conceding that lascannons are less effective but taking them anyway, have you thought about exactly *how much* less effective?

In 4th ed, a standard lascannon shot had a 25% chance of damaging an AR13 vehicle, and a 16.5% chance of damaging AR14. That's bad enough. But now that a vehicle can position itself for a 4+ cover save, those odds are cut in half--12% for AR13 and about 8% for AR14.

And that's just to get a glancing or penetrating hit. Then with the new damage tables producing many fewer kill results than before (no kills at all on glancing hits) this is where my math breaks down, but you're looking at single digit chances of killing heavy tanks with an infantry-equipped lascannon. And this is the most expensive, premium priced weapon that IG can get.

I predict that in 5th ed, IG will have to find a way to get close with meltaguns in order to kill heavy tanks. Against AR 12 and less, autocannons are better, and meltas are unchanged against the heavy tanks (assuming you can maneuver for a clear shot). I don't see any utility for static lascannons in an antitank role in IG in 5th ed.

Flavius Infernus wrote:I predict that in 5th ed, IG will have to find a way to get close with meltaguns in order to kill heavy tanks. Against AR 12 and less, autocannons are better, and meltas are unchanged against the heavy tanks (assuming you can maneuver for a clear shot). I don't see any utility for static lascannons in an antitank role in IG in 5th ed.

I agree that IG anti-tank will be more varied, but I think you're drastically underselling lascannons. IG are the only army (after the anticipated SM reboot) with access to cheap lascannon squads. They're still the best heavy for termies, MCs, and yes, AV12-14 (the AC and LC are tied at 12, with far more pens possible for LCs, I call that a win). TLOS opens more chances for side armor shots, and cover or no, lascannons are good at shaking/stunning enemy battle tanks, which with the new rules can often rip through IG squads.

Finding cover for tanks isn't always easy, either. half of a large tank is a big peiece of terrain, and while certainly doable, often restricts it's field of fire. I think we'll see fewer Lascannons, but probably only a drop to 40-50% from the 70% we see now.

Flavius Infernus wrote:I predict that in 5th ed, IG will have to find a way to get close with meltaguns in order to kill heavy tanks. Against AR 12 and less, autocannons are better, and meltas are unchanged against the heavy tanks (assuming you can maneuver for a clear shot). I don't see any utility for static lascannons in an antitank role in IG in 5th ed.

I think this is correct, but I think 4E already saw a fairly solid archetype of a core of Las/Plas line squads with 3-5 Command Squads/Hardened Vet squads dropping with 3-4 Plas/Meltas. I think the only thing that will change with this will be that you'll see fewer of these squads running Plas and nearly all of them running Melta now.

deep striking stormtroopers with melta bombs and 2 melta guns are my anti-armor answer right now. they're usually good for 1-2 tank kills a game with the added bonus of drawing attention from the rest of my army.

Deadmanstomp wrote:deep striking stormtroopers with melta bombs and 2 melta guns are my anti-armor answer right now. they're usually good for 1-2 tank kills a game with the added bonus of drawing attention from the rest of my army.

H-Vets would be cheaper and pack more BS4 Meltaguns.

BYE

I agree, but the vets don't have deep strike unless you're fielding a drop trooper list. also the +4 armor gives them alittle more survivability.

sourclams wrote:I'm finding flamers to be stupidly good for their points. I'm running squads with 1 lascannon, 1 plasma gun, and 1 flamethrower in ranks 5-6 deep and the flamethrower is definitely making the majority of the kills, especially with the new surplus of Horde armies running around. The new blast scatter rules are helping my Russes quite considerably and even allowing for cover saves my tanks are still accounting for 10-15 models per turn at range, and flamers pile into them when they finally close into the assault. MEQ has an even rougher time as they just don't have the body pool to survive a stand up fight with Guard artillery nor the heavy weapons to pop AV14.

How do you have 2 special weapons in your squads?

Deadmanstomp wrote:I agree, but the vets don't have deep strike unless you're fielding a drop trooper list.

You spend one doctrine point and get Deep Strike on the Vets for no point cost. You don't have to deep strike anything but the Vets if you like.

Deadmanstomp wrote:also the +4 armor gives them alittle more survivability.

No, it really doesn't.

Deadmanstomp wrote:I agree, but the vets don't have deep strike unless you're fielding a drop trooper list. also the +4 armor gives them alittle more survivability.

They're a suicide unit. What do they need survivability for?

And Drop Troops is free in a Guard army.

BYE

broxus wrote:

sourclams wrote:I'm finding flamers to be stupidly good for their points. I'm running squads with 1 lascannon, 1 plasma gun, and 1 flamethrower in ranks 5-6 deep and the flamethrower is definitely making the majority of the kills, especially with the new surplus of Horde armies running around. The new blast scatter rules are helping my Russes quite considerably and even allowing for cover saves my tanks are still accounting for 10-15 models per turn at range, and flamers pile into them when they finally close into the assault. MEQ has an even rougher time as they just don't have the body pool to survive a stand up fight with Guard artillery nor the heavy weapons to pop AV14.

How do you have 2 special weapons in your squads?

By cheating? Should've said '1 plasma, or 1 flamer'. I've since dropped the plasma guns since my own troops were providing cover and the flamers were just dealing so many more kills.