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In the newly released IG FAQ, there is a question regarding wounding IG heavy weapons mounted on one base. The FAQ states that if the gunner is killed, then the loader takes his place. I find this interesting, as under 5th Ed wound allocation each model with different equipment has to roll for wounds separately. So, for example, if I took 10 wounds on an IG squad with 10 models, I would roll for the Sgt., special weapon trooper, and the firer of the heavy weapon separately and then roll 7 dice for everyone with lasguns. Continuing with this example, lets say I fail my heavy weapon firer's save, according to the newly released IG FAQ, my loader takes over, essentially giving all my heavy weapons two wounds.

I base all my IG heavy weapons on the smaller bases. Does this mean that if my heavy weapons guy fails a save the loader still gets to take over, giving me a two wound heavy weapon?

Am I understanding this correctly? It doesn't seem fair to the other races who only have one model firing a heavy weapon.

"if the Gunner is Killed, then the loader will take his place"

Looks pretty clear to me... even if the conclusions we draw are NOT the intent.. it is certainly the RAW (IMHO)


And as for Fair.. according to the FAQ the Eldar Guardians can have either Model fire the Heavy weapon.


I guess this just puts the Guard on par with the Eldar, so that you have to kill BOTH of the crew to negate the heavy weapon...

It Does raise a question about "Similarly Equipped" models in the Eldar squads. does one of the models actually HAVE the platform and no SC?
I don't remember the exact wording

Legion91 wrote: It doesn't seem fair to the other races who only have one model firing a heavy weapon.

Other races, aside from Eldar, don't have heavy weapons that are allocated to a team of two models.

Fairness has nothing to do with it. It's just one of the things that makes Guard different to other armies.

Legion91 wrote:In the newly released IG FAQ, there is a question regarding wounding IG heavy weapons mounted on one base. The FAQ states that if the gunner is killed, then the loader takes his place. I find this interesting, as under 5th Ed wound allocation each model with different equipment has to roll for wounds separately. So, for example, if I took 10 wounds on an IG squad with 10 models, I would roll for the Sgt., special weapon trooper, and the firer of the heavy weapon separately and then roll 7 dice for everyone with lasguns. Continuing with this example, lets say I fail my heavy weapon firer's save, according to the newly released IG FAQ, my loader takes over, essentially giving all my heavy weapons two wounds.

I base all my IG heavy weapons on the smaller bases. Does this mean that if my heavy weapons guy fails a save the loader still gets to take over, giving me a two wound heavy weapon?

Am I understanding this correctly? It doesn't seem fair to the other races who only have one model firing a heavy weapon.

Its more than fair considering that the most people that can be in that HW squad is 6 and they all have toughness 3, and +5 Armor save. They die fast and are over priced for what they can do.

Also, the way I read it is this. in a squad of normal troopers that has a Heavy weapon and a non upgraded Sergeant would make 9 saves together for the Lasguns and 1 save for the heavy weapon. So it would work out to be more than 2 wounds so long as the first guardsmen doesnt die on the heavy weapon, you dont have to roll seperate for the gunner since he is equipped EXACTLY the same and can fire his Lasgun the same turn also.

I would say that as an army where the two wounds are T3 and Sv5+, I don't think it is reasonable to consider it unfair. A Space Marine, T4, Sv3+, is more likely to surive most weapons that would otherwise kill the two Guardsmen.

CK

broxus wrote:

Also, the way I read it is this. in a squad of normal troopers that has a Heavy weapon and a non upgraded Sergeant would make 9 saves together for the Lasguns and 1 save for the heavy weapon. So it would work out to be more than 2 wounds so long as the first guardsmen doesnt die on the heavy weapon, you dont have to roll seperate for the gunner since he is equipped EXACTLY the same and can fire his Lasgun the same turn also.

Both members of the heavy weapon team are technically equipped with the same heavy weapon, so yes you would roll for both of them as a group separately from the rest of the IG in the unit that are just armed with a Lasgun.

yakface wrote:

broxus wrote:

Also, the way I read it is this. in a squad of normal troopers that has a Heavy weapon and a non upgraded Sergeant would make 9 saves together for the Lasguns and 1 save for the heavy weapon. So it would work out to be more than 2 wounds so long as the first guardsmen doesnt die on the heavy weapon, you dont have to roll seperate for the gunner since he is equipped EXACTLY the same and can fire his Lasgun the same turn also.

Both members of the heavy weapon team are technically equipped with the same heavy weapon, so yes you would roll for both of them as a group separately from the rest of the IG in the unit that are just armed with a Lasgun.

Yak,

Im not sure since it says in the FAQ that the other model (loader) can fire the weapon its equiped with, which is usually a lasgun. Also the loader can fire a lasgun in the same turn as the HW is fired, only the gunner is really equiped with the HW.

Now I know people can take this to be any way but since they have the loader is equiped with the exact same weapon and has the same stat lines as the normal guardsmen, many could argue they should make their saves with them. This is really the same as rolling a squad sergeant equiped the same as the rest of the squad in a single group.

/broxus

Under that line of logic shouldn't the next Space Marine in line pick up his dead friend's Lascannon? It's better than a bolter and he's not using so let's leave it there on the ground so it can keep his corpse company, I love the amount of sense that makes.

Typeline,

It doesn't have to make sense, it just has to be a rule. My guard serve the Emperor, shouldn't they benefit from They Shall Know No Fear?

Valhallan42nd wrote:Typeline,

It doesn't have to make sense, it just has to be a rule. My guard serve the Emperor, shouldn't they benefit from They Shall Know No Fear?

I'm just speaking out against new wound allocation. Why bother if the next guy in line could pick up the heavy/special.

Typeline wrote: Under that line of logic shouldn't the next Space Marine in line pick up his dead friend's Lascannon? It's better than a bolter and he's not using so let's leave it there on the ground so it can keep his corpse company, I love the amount of sense that makes.

I tend to agree that its dumb. I think only characters who had wargear should be singled out but ohh well.

I guess you can imagine that the weapon they were carrying was to damaged to fire any longer.


The IG need all the help they can get lets face it vs Orcs, SM, Eldar, and Tyranids IG need all the love they can get they are definatly pretty gimp.

broxus wrote:I guess you can imagine that the weapon they were carrying was to damaged to fire any longer.

That's exactly what the rulebook tells us to do. It suggests that the weapon was damaged or the rest of the unit doesn't have the training to use it. It's the same reasoning that alows plasma guns that overheat to continue being used until it kills the firer. Then, suddenly it is unuseable. It's a game mechanic. Use whatever fluff you want to justify it.

As to the point, I'm with Yak. The two members of the heavy weapon team are different from the rest of the squad and those two should be rolled for together. I base all of mine seperately but they are clearly marked as part of the weapon team as opposed to normal riflemen. I think by doing otherwise a player would be breaking the rules. If PFist Vet Marine Sarges are on the chopping block the rest of us aren't going to get any breaks.

Ultimately a heavy weapon team with 2 wounds has a lot going for it.

BYE

Nice.

page 44 in the IG codex, "Two Guardsmen may form a single weapon crew. A heavy weapon crew must be armed with one of the weapons from the following list:..."

This quote supports Yak's interpretation. Clearly stating both models are armed differently from the other lasgun guardsmen in the squad, but the same as each other.

broxus wrote:
Yak,

Im not sure since it says in the FAQ that the other model (loader) can fire the weapon its equiped with, which is usually a lasgun. Also the loader can fire a lasgun in the same turn as the HW is fired, only the gunner is really equiped with the HW.

Now I know people can take this to be any way but since they have the loader is equiped with the exact same weapon and has the same stat lines as the normal guardsmen, many could argue they should make their saves with them. This is really the same as rolling a squad sergeant equiped the same as the rest of the squad in a single group.

/broxus

This is an incorrect assumption (as Datajax has pointed out with his quote). Per the IG codex, two models form the heavy weapon team. There is no such thing in the rules as a "loader" or "gunner" and therefore GW must be using these terms as a way to describe the differing models.

But when it comes down to the rules, a HW team is made up of two Guardsmen who are armed with lasguns and the same heavy weapon. They should therefore have their wounds allocated separately from the rest of the unit that just has lasguns.

Yak, in the spirit of the rule I think your right. THough, the way its written it could be argued the other way. Also, when it comes to heavy weapon squads will be intresting how you are forced to roll. Would you have to roll three seperate dice for the loaders and 3 more dice for the gunner. It really makes a diffrence if you do it that way. Its much better to treat them all as equiped the same so you would have to kill 3 guardsmen before you start losing heavy weapons.

yakface wrote:

broxus wrote:
Yak,

Im not sure since it says in the FAQ that the other model (loader) can fire the weapon its equiped with, which is usually a lasgun. Also the loader can fire a lasgun in the same turn as the HW is fired, only the gunner is really equiped with the HW.

Now I know people can take this to be any way but since they have the loader is equiped with the exact same weapon and has the same stat lines as the normal guardsmen, many could argue they should make their saves with them. This is really the same as rolling a squad sergeant equiped the same as the rest of the squad in a single group.

/broxus

This is an incorrect assumption (as Datajax has pointed out with his quote). Per the IG codex, two models form the heavy weapon team. There is no such thing in the rules as a "loader" or "gunner" and therefore GW must be using these terms as a way to describe the differing models.

But when it comes down to the rules, a HW team is made up of two Guardsmen who are armed with lasguns and the same heavy weapon. They should therefore have their wounds allocated separately from the rest of the unit that just has lasguns.

Yakface,

You proved my conundrum exactly. "There is no such thing in the rules as a 'loader' or 'gunner' and therefore GW must be using these terms as a way to describe differing models." I bolded the part that proves my conundrum. Since they are differing models, as you say, then, according to wound allocation, they must be rolled for separately, but the IG FAQ states that the "loader" takes the place of the "gunner". So lets say I roll two saves for a missile launcher "loader" and "gunner", I pass the "loader" save, but fail the "gunner" save. According to the IG FAQ, the "loader" takes the place of the "gunner". Would that not effectively give the actual missile launcher "gunner" two wounds? What am I missing here?

Legion91 wrote:

Yakface,

You proved my conundrum exactly. "There is no such thing in the rules as a 'loader' or 'gunner' and therefore GW must be using these terms as a way to describe differing models." I bolded the part that proves my conundrum. Since they are differing models, as you say, then, according to wound allocation, they must be rolled for separately, but the IG FAQ states that the "loader" takes the place of the "gunner". So lets say I roll two saves for a missile launcher "loader" and "gunner", I pass the "loader" save, but fail the "gunner" save. According to the IG FAQ, the "loader" takes the place of the "gunner". Would that not effectively give the actual missile launcher "gunner" two wounds? What am I missing here?

You misunderstand my meaning. When GW refers to a "loader" and a "gunner" they are talking about the actual models. One guy is often holding the heavy weapon ("gunner") and the other guy isn't ("loader"). But from a RULES perspective, this distinction doesn't exist. Both these models are equipped with the heavy weapon.

We are essentially saying the same thing (that you have to kill both models to get rid of the heavy weapon), it's just that *other* people are trying to claim that the "loader" is allocated wounds along with the rest of the lasgun armed models in the unit while the "gunner" gets his wounds allocated separately from the "loader" and the rest of the lasgun armed models in the unit.

This is incorrect from a RAW standpoint as *both* members of the heavy weapon team are armed identically and *both* of them are armed differently from the rest of the lasgun armed models in the unit.

So when it comes to allocate wounds to an IG unit you have the following 'groups' of similarly armed models:

1) Sergeant (assuming he has a pistol & CC weapon).
2) All the Lasgun armed models.
3) The special weapon model.
4) The heavy weapon team.

Ah, ha. Now I see your meaning. It's so simple really. Yakface, you sir are a scholar and a gentleman. Thank you.

And the FAQ list gets longer and longer . . . . ..

So... What happens if the IG unit is tank-shocked, and then fails its Death or Glory attack? Does the lascannon transfer to the so-called loader or is it removed when the gunner is removed?

broxus wrote:Yak, in the spirit of the rule I think your right. THough, the way its written it could be argued the other way. Also, when it comes to heavy weapon squads will be intresting how you are forced to roll. Would you have to roll three seperate dice for the loaders and 3 more dice for the gunner. It really makes a diffrence if you do it that way. Its much better to treat them all as equiped the same so you would have to kill 3 guardsmen before you start losing heavy weapons.

I think to do it correctly you would have to seperate the teams into 3 different groups and roll accordingly. It is a change to the way we've been allowed to protect our heavy weapons but, like I keep saying, if it works both ways then it's still fair. I just keep thinking about a 10 man SM dev squad that takes 10 wounds and fails 4 saves. Before it wouldn't have meant anything, but now it could mean that the SM player has just inherited an expensive non-scoring tac squad.

ive got to ask the question does anyone actually give their sergeant a CCW and las pistol? What would be the purpose in doing this over a las gun. If that gets into combat its dead anyways I think the long range firepower is better. You did forget one thing though that now #$#$ vox casters have to roll seperately. Kinda of a waste now for sure.

I always give 'em a LP&CCW combo. Means I have 22 attacks on the charge rather than 20. When I charge with 3 such squads, every little bit helps.

BYE