Forum adverts like this one are shown to any user who is not logged in. Join us by filling out a tiny 3 field form and you will get your own, free, dakka user account which gives a good range of benefits to you: No adverts like this in the forums anymore. Times and dates in your local timezone. Full tracking of what you have read so you can skip to your first unread post, easily see what has changed since you last logged in, and easily see what is new at a glance. Email notifications for threads you want to watch closely. Being a part of the oldest wargaming community on the net. If you are already a member then feel free to login now.

Since,

I know the new codex is coming out for SM and rumors are that the whirlwind will come with the fire round variant that will negate cover saves I was looking at a mortar squad for the IG which costs 80 points vs the 85 point Whirlwind and thought Wow that sucks. So I have started thinking of how to improve the rules for mortar teams which are hugely underpowered for their costs vs any other indirect unit.

Here are a couple of ideas I thought of to help make them a better unit.

Option 0) Do nothing they are well worth 80 points for a STR 4 small template.

Option 1) Keep the current points cost but make teams consist of 5 mortar teams or 10 personell, STR 4.

Option 2) Keep the current points cost but make teams consist of 5 mortar teams or 10 personell, make mortars STR 4

Option 3) Keep the current points cost but make teams consist of 3 mortar teams, and use large blast templates, STR 4

Option 4) Keep the current points cost but make teams consist of 3 mortar teams, and use large blast templates, STR 5

Option 5) Keep the current points cost but make teams consist of 3 mortar teams, and use large blast templates, STR 4 able to fire Smoke which blocks line of sight shooting thru it and a 5+ cover save to troops in it. This could be really neat for making smoke screens to cover retreating units

I also think that a spotter upgrade should be for all squads to have. This would allow a reroll of scatter for them because the spotter would help guide in the mortar rounds.

The 80 pt. HQ/Heavy Support mortar selection does have three mortar teams at the moment. You probably already know this, but some of the options (0,3,4,5) indicated otherwise. Also, the existing mortar round is S4; the IG's S3 small blast template weapon is the Grenade Launcher firing frag rounds.

Personally I like options 3 & 4, with a lean toward 4. This is the solution they took in Warhammer Historical's The Great War, and it makes mortars (with S4, technically heavy mortars in The Great War context as opposed to S3 light mortars) useful. With three large blast templates and the ability to spam the unit the cost might have to go up a bit above 80 pts. (particularly as the Barrage weapon's ability to ignore non-area terrain cover is worth something in 5th,) but probably not by too much.

Smoke would be quite interesting as well, and would give the unit something to do against mechanized armies. Complete LOS blockage might be a bit too useful in 5th, but a renewable cover save for infantry and vehicles would be a great option to have.

Spotter would be a very cool upgrade, unless it generated another unit for Kill Points purposes. Allowing vox-caster models that have direct line of sight on the target to spot in leiu of firing weapons might also be a neat way of generating a bonus while also making another piece of equipment useful.

I voted other.

I think the large blast makes them too good. Especially in the case of CHQ/PHQs that are hiding and providing LD bubbles anyway. 10 points to let them fire a large blast is almost a no brainer, especially in an Infantry heavy army with several platoons.

What about an option for the Mortar squads to combine fire ala Fire Prism/ Apoc? Mortar Squad can combine fire to shoot a Large blast with +1 strength per mortar alive in the squad.

Spotters would be a great concept. Maybe an upgrade for a command squad OR as an additional advisor.

I had tried an asset out in a game that was called something like "Zero'ed In!" It was used for a beachhead type mission and it was set up like a minefield. Basically, before the game started or anyone was deployed one (or more) templates the size of the large blast template could be laid out on the battle field. Any indirect shots that were aimed at ground within these areas used the BS of the firer instead of the indirect rules. Of course, at that time the indirect rules were to guess the range and then roll the scatter from that point.

I would like to see something like that, but it might make things too clunky. Failing that I would love to see Sentinels get a spotter upgrade other than the fact that it kind of makes me want to say "Hey, if you want models to mark targets play Tau!"

I think the introduction of different rounds could be the most elegant way.

Flare Round: When using night fighting these rounds can illuminate enemy locations like the spotlight. no damage is made to models touched by the template(s) but those units may be fired at normally for the rest of the phase.

Spotting Round: Just like the Apocalypse Basilisk one.

I also like the idea of some kind of a bunker buster round to eliminate cover or make it less effective but it would have to be approached delicately. This game doesn't favor indirect fire so making it too effective would be unbalancing the game. Making the IG mortar team the only ones that have viable indirect fire would be swinging the pendulum too far.

...althogh it would be pretty cool.

The way we fixed Mortars in our rules was to give them the 'High Impact' rule that we've also given to Autocannons (and other S7+ weapons), plus a few smaller guns like Inferno Cannons and Assault Cannons.

Basically they retain their S4 and small blast, but reduce enemy armour saves by 1. So a 3+ becomes a 4+, and so on. This applies to Mortars, Heavy Mortars, Whirlwinds and all sorts of things like that.

Makes them dangerous and viable. I actually take Mortars in my Guard lists using these rules, as they have a utility that they never had before.

BYE

H.B.M.C. wrote:The way we fixed Mortars in our rules was to give them the 'High Impact' rule that we've also given to Autocannons (and other S7+ weapons), plus a few smaller guns like Inferno Cannons and Assault Cannons.

Basically they retain their S4 and small blast, but reduce enemy armour saves by 1. So a 3+ becomes a 4+, and so on. This applies to Mortars, Heavy Mortars, Whirlwinds and all sorts of things like that.

Makes them dangerous and viable. I actually take Mortars in my Guard lists using these rules, as they have a utility that they never had before.

BYE

I like it but that would have to be a change I think in the BGB, and its very similar to fantasy so I dont think thats an option, cool idea though

Flagg07 wrote:I voted other.

I think the large blast makes them too good. Especially in the case of CHQ/PHQs that are hiding and providing LD bubbles anyway. 10 points to let them fire a large blast is almost a no brainer, especially in an Infantry heavy army with several platoons.

What about an option for the Mortar squads to combine fire ala Fire Prism/ Apoc? Mortar Squad can combine fire to shoot a Large blast with +1 strength per mortar alive in the squad.

Spotters would be a great concept. Maybe an upgrade for a command squad OR as an additional advisor.

I think they suck compaired to the Whirlwind though. For 5 more points you get vehicle that is immune to small arms fire (it can also move up to 6" and fire). It is also Ordance Barrage, STR 5, AP 4, that is -1 to your leadership. In the new SM codex they will most likely be able to ignore cover. It seems to me that the meager STR 4 AP6 mortar with its small blast template could use some love.

I think just making them Str5 Ap5 is good enough for the points. With the new rules for templates that include all partials, if they are better at wounding MEQ's and Orks and don't let light infantry get saves then I could see them being a decent choice.

I'd make the Mortar modal like the ML & GL:
- Frag = S4 AP- Indirect 1 large Blast
- Krak = S3 AP- Indirect 1 small Blast (hole is S6 AP3 vs Rear AV)

JohnHwangDD wrote:I'd make the Mortar modal like the ML & GL:
- Frag = S4 AP- Indirect 1 large Blast
- Krak = S3 AP- Indirect 1 small Blast (hole is S6 AP3 vs Rear AV)

i really like this idea, as it gives it versatility and makes the points cost vaguely worth it.

That doesn't make any sense John. Why would you fire shaped warheads out of something as innacurate as a Mortar?

Plus at the end of the day, it's AP nothing, so no one would want it. It has to, at the very least, cut through Sv5+.

BYE

In battery, these things are fairly accurate. And Tanks are fairly large. So dropping a Krak shell into a top hatch isn't out of the question and makes for a great story.

In a universe in which everything has Sv4++ cover, AP- should be perfectly acceptable when paired with Large Blast. What it will lack in AP, it will make up for in hits or extra hits.

Mortars can be very accurate and with a spotter and laser sights and rounds could be used. I do like the above statement about the frag and krak rounds and maybe giving them smoke, that should be small blast though and only one turn per game per mortar squad. Game play you know.