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hello,
i finally have enough chimeras to toy with idea of doing around a 1000 - 1500 point
Mech Guard list. is it still generally considered las/plas is the choice for the squads?
in guard lists the grunts hunt the tanks and the tanks kill the infantry. but with obvious
lack of squads that a Mech list has, what compensates for the shortage of line squads toting
all those lascannons ?
and would 3 Russes be a good complement to all of the Chimeras in a Mech list?

thanks for your input.

Tanks kill infantry.
Infantry kill tanks.

Chimeras can't mount anti-tank weapons, and considering you'll have to take about 6 of the things, and they'll cover all your anti-infantry needs, you'll need AT firepower somewhere.

That's where the squads come in. Las/Plas Squads in Multi-Laser/HB Chimeras is the way to go.

BYE

I agree with HBMC's suggestion and that is pretty much how I run my mechanized Tallarn lists.

However, in higher points games you might also consider tossing in one to four cheapo 55-point lascannon sentinels for additional AT firepower. Never put 'em in squadrons of course.

IG, "We are many. They are few."

I know that HBMC's word is usually law around here, but...

I'm going to suggest that mechanized guard may have changed with 5th edition (which I think is part of the question implied in the OP).
-Chimeras can't shoot all their weapons on the move anymore, cutting their effective firepower in half.
-Static, infantry-based lascannons are less than half as effective as before against tanks.
-Flamers--especially multiple templates in the same volley--are exponentially more powerful than before.
-transports are much less likely to kill their passengers.

I think the long-term effects of these changes are not yet fully understood. But it suggests the possibility that mech commanders may have to consider new squad and vehicle configurations to remain competitive?
-What about using a chimera as a transport to ferry meltagun-armed squads closer to their heavily-armored targets? Realize that command squads sometimes already do this, but what about regular squads too?
-What about (heresy!) putting the heavy flamer turret on a chimera? (The hull flamer might even be worthwhile too in spite of its restricted fire arc.)

I think the heavy flamer wouldn't work so well. With so many tanks running around dumping infantry, it will be difficult to even place templates I would think.

Try this for the "bulk" of your army, don't have my Codex on hand so costs are from memory:

6x Chimera, Multilaser/Heavy Bolter, Heavy Flamer: 85 pts (total 510)
3x 5 man Vets, 3 Meltaguns, 1 plasma pistol: 96 pts (total 288)
3x Infantry Platoon, 1 flamer, 2 plasma gun: 86 pts (total 258 pts)

Total: 1056 pts

That leaves you a pretty good chunk of points to add a Command platoon, infantry, and some tanks.

Tanks rush forward firing multilasers (or heavy bolters, whatever) until in range for flamers, flamers torch any troops, squads deploy and target either vehicles or troops depending on effectiveness.

Run some bare-bones inf platoons with lascannons deployed at startup to prevent vehicle flanking or to snipe MCs.

Your'e not going to be incredibly effective against certain lists like Mech Eldar or Raider Assault Terms due to the high point sink in your chimeras, but it will be viable against most and you'll butcher hordes.

whitedragon wrote:I think the heavy flamer wouldn't work so well. With so many tanks running around dumping infantry, it will be difficult to even place templates I would think.

I haven't had any problem with it. Granted I only tend to use 2 chimeras and maxed Hell Hounds, but with IG squads deploying in the back and your targets (generally) in the front, there shouldn't be much issue.

I run an interesting mech guard list in 5th.... I had a problem with anti-tank firepower as well, so I countered that by not taking an all mech list. Also, since I don't have as many infantry, and infantry are so important now, I took more durable infantry, and put carapace on the rest. It's worked awesome, I win over 50% of my games with it. (I play with the belloflostsouls guys, for those of you who care.)

Command squad (basic JO, nothing special)
Chimera
10xHardened vets w/ carapace, lascannon, special weapons
10xHardened vets w/ carapace, lascannon, special weapons
10xHardened vets w/ carapace, lascannon, special weapons
10x stormtroopers w/2x plas, vet sergeant w/ plas
chimera
10x stormtroopers w/2x plas, vet sergeant w/ plas
chimera
10x stormtroopers w/2x plas, vet sergeant w/ plas
chimera
Demolisher w/big sponsons
Demolisher w/big sponsons
leman russ w/no sponsons
sentinel w/ multi laser
sentinel w/ multi laser


So, I know I've got a bit of a different play style than most players, but if you've got the models, try something like this in a game before you dash it. It doesn't look as good on paper, but it's so versatile, it's much better than you'd think. And this way, with the BS4 infiltrating Lascannons, you've got enough anti-tank. Also, don't be afraid to shoot your tanks at other tanks... especially if you've got melta sponsons on the demolishers.

Just my thoughts.

With the new 2x Armor Pen rolls for ordnance weapons, Demolisher cannons can punch through vehicle armor like paper.

I even use LRBT cannon on AV12-13 if their infantry isn't posing a significant enough threat. It's not too hard to land on a vehicle with the new scatter rules and the long range make sniping side armor from 3+ feet away pretty easy.

/agree. Thanks for the support on that, Sourclams.

Also, mechguard is now the best army to kill mecheldar. Cause they simply can't kill us. at all. ever.

Wow... such a small thread yet it's filled with so many weird suggestions.

Ok, from the top:

Tallarn Commander wrote:However, in higher points games you might also consider tossing in one to four cheapo 55-point lascannon sentinels for additional AT firepower. Never put 'em in squadrons of course.

This is actually a good point. Given the new environment, more AT firepower is needed, and the Sentinels themselves have become inherently tougher (it'll take twice as many shots to kill them... so 2 shots rather than 1).

That said, if it ever comes down to the choice of squad-based Lascannons or Sentinel-based Lascannons, the squad-based ones have to come first.

Flavius Infernus wrote:I'm going to suggest that mechanized guard may have changed with 5th edition (which I think is part of the question implied in the OP).

I'm sure it has, but only in the details and meta of list construction - their function is still the same:

Shoot the enemy off the table before they kill your drastically reduced amount of men.

Flavius Infernus wrote:Chimeras can't shoot all their weapons on the move anymore, cutting their effective firepower in half.

Irrelevent.

The new cover saves combined with the idiotic nerfing of defensive weapons means that there's now no reason to move your Chimeras except for contesting things (and you don't need to do that at the start of the game). There's a bigger argument for EA and maybe even Smoke on all your Chimeras, but other than that, the role of the Chimera hasn't changed:

Shoot infantry until they die from it.

Flavius Infernus wrote:Static, infantry-based lascannons are less than half as effective as before against tanks.

Making them even more important than before, especially considering a MechInf army can't take Deep Striking H-Vet units w/Meltaguns. A MechInf army that isn't packing 8 Lascannons now is in trouble.

Flavius Infernus wrote:Flamers--especially multiple templates in the same volley--are exponentially more powerful than before.

They're back to the way they were in 3rd, plus the added new effect of being able to snipe people if you hit the unit with enough hits (how I hate that rule...).

The Flaming Command Squad isn't anything new, it's something I've striven (is that a word?) to take in almost every army I've made since 3rd.

Flavius Infernus wrote:transports are much less likely to kill their passengers

Guard only need to be in their Chimeras when they need to get away from something quickly, or they're running for objectives.

Flavius Infernus wrote:I think the long-term effects of these changes are not yet fully understood.

So let's ignore current paradigms?

The rules have changed. Guard haven't. The basic tenets of a Guard army still apply... we just need more AT firepower than before, and our transports aren't dead-weight anymore (even if they are 20-30 points over-costed)

Flavius Infernus wrote:What about using a chimera as a transport to ferry meltagun-armed squads closer to their heavily-armored targets? Realize that command squads sometimes already do this, but what about regular squads too?

I suspect Chimeras with Melta Command Squads might become more common, but not because of 5th. I'm 100% certain that Drop Troops will be going the way of the Chaos Legions come the next Guard Codex, so the old staple of using Melta H-Vet and Melta Command Squad units to supplement our Lascannon quotas won't work any more. Chances are H-Vets will have the costs of their guns doubled as well, as Jervis & Co. make an attempt at (over) balancing them.

Flavius Infernus wrote:What about (heresy!) putting the heavy flamer turret on a chimera? (The hull flamer might even be worthwhile too in spite of its restricted fire arc.)

We need more AT firepower, not less!

Multi-Lasers are needed for hunting AV10 and AV11 targets - they can even take a stab at AV12. They kill Orks and Gaunts before they enter charge range (another important thing for 5th). And as MechInf armies don't have a lot of room for Autocannons (all squad-slots need to be Lascannons), the Multi-Laser is the next best thing (better in some cases).

sourclams wrote:6x Chimera, Multilaser/Heavy Bolter, Heavy Flamer: 85 pts (total 510)
3x 5 man Vets, 3 Meltaguns, 1 plasma pistol: 96 pts (total 288)
3x Infantry Platoon, 1 flamer, 2 plasma gun: 86 pts (total 258 pts)

Emperor's Blood... 3 squads? You're advocating a Guard army with 3 Infantry Squads? And not only that, 3 Infantry squads without heavy weapons?

He's better off using his Command Squads as Melta units rather than wasting points on H-Vet squads (which should not be in a MechInf army unless they're toting Lascannons as well).

Command Squads are throaway trouble-shooter units in MechInf armies because we have to take them. Might as well get some use out of them beyond Leadership Radii and use them to plug some gaps. 4 Meltas in a Command Section will do just that. Why go and buy a 75 point H-Vet unit and then another Chimera to do the same job?

sourclams wrote:Tanks rush forward firing multilasers (or heavy bolters, whatever) until in range for flamers, flamers torch any troops, squads deploy and target either vehicles or troops depending on effectiveness.

You are aware that we are attempting to make a list from Codex: Imperial Guard, not Codex: Space Marines or Codex: Space Marines w/Spikes, right?

This is Guard. Guard do not do transport rushes. We are a shooting army. A static, shooty horde army that should be blasting entire armies off the table before the end of our first shooting phase (or as close to as possible). Hundreds upon hundreds of points tied up in single BS3 rushing Flamers is not a good use of Guard.

Jhagadurn wrote:I run an interesting mech guard list in 5th...

That's an understatement.

Jhagadurn wrote:Command squad (basic JO, nothing special)
Chimera
10xHardened vets w/ carapace, lascannon, special weapons
10xHardened vets w/ carapace, lascannon, special weapons
10xHardened vets w/ carapace, lascannon, special weapons
10x stormtroopers w/2x plas, vet sergeant w/ plas
chimera
10x stormtroopers w/2x plas, vet sergeant w/ plas
chimera
10x stormtroopers w/2x plas, vet sergeant w/ plas
chimera
Demolisher w/big sponsons
Demolisher w/big sponsons
leman russ w/no sponsons
sentinel w/ multi laser
sentinel w/ multi laser

I keep looking for the Guard army in here and I just can't see it. Looks more like an Elites army low on model count (and Toughness values), with extra points spent on bloat like Carapace Armour.

That said, I do love the list, but simply because I play MechInquisiStorm Troopers and, as completely hopeless as they are, the list is damned fun to play.

But the OP is asking for a MechInf Guard army. The army above is neither.

Jhagadurn wrote:Also, mechguard is now the best army to kill mecheldar. Cause they simply can't kill us. at all. ever.

Explain this statement. How do MechEldar have a problem killing 60 guys in Carapace Armour?

BYE

H.B.M.C. wrote:

sourclams wrote:6x Chimera, Multilaser/Heavy Bolter, Heavy Flamer: 85 pts (total 510)
3x 5 man Vets, 3 Meltaguns, 1 plasma pistol: 96 pts (total 288)
3x Infantry Platoon, 1 flamer, 2 plasma gun: 86 pts (total 258 pts)

Emperor's Blood... 3 squads? You're advocating a Guard army with 3 Infantry Squads? And not only that, 3 Infantry squads without heavy weapons?

He's better off using his Command Squads as Melta units rather than wasting points on H-Vet squads (which should not be in a MechInf army unless they're toting Lascannons as well).

Three squads, in this single section of Mech Guard, leaving plenty of room for almost 500-1,000 points of whatever else he wants. His whole point was that he wanted troops mounted in Chimeras. BS4 meltaguns represent some viable anti-vehicle in this edition which is something that Mech Guard arguably lacks since LRBTs are not best used in an anti-vehicular role.

Command Squads are throaway trouble-shooter units in MechInf armies because we have to take them. Might as well get some use out of them beyond Leadership Radii and use them to plug some gaps. 4 Meltas in a Command Section will do just that. Why go and buy a 75 point H-Vet unit and then another Chimera to do the same job?

Because his Command Squad will be armed with flamers and sandwiched in the middle of his 5 other static infantry platoons supporting his pillbox tanks? Utilizing both their counter assault role and rerollable leadership bubble much more effectively than en route in a transport? Or something?

sourclams wrote:Tanks rush forward firing multilasers (or heavy bolters, whatever) until in range for flamers, flamers torch any troops, squads deploy and target either vehicles or troops depending on effectiveness.

You are aware that we are attempting to make a list from Codex: Imperial Guard, not Codex: Space Marines or Codex: Space Marines w/Spikes, right?

This is Guard. Guard do not do transport rushes. We are a shooting army. A static, shooty horde army that should be blasting entire armies off the table before the end of our first shooting phase (or as close to as possible). Hundreds upon hundreds of points tied up in single BS3 rushing Flamers is not a good use of Guard.

HBMC,

Yeah, I know my guard army is different.... but it's strangely effective. Sorry if the 65 guys in it aren't enough for you. ;-)

As far as mechanized guard - I do support HBMC and his claims of massed lascannons. YOu just need them. Don't even think about flamers or transport rushes. just shoot gak, or build a list like mine that is stupidly variable.

I'd just like to clarify that you can take mechanised Guard including heavy tanks and still field half a dozen or more lascannons in static positions. In fact, this is what I'd advocate. My Guard list runs 7+ armored vehicles, but I still rely heavily on 6 infantry squads equipped with lascannons for static, long-range shooting.