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Did the Kult of Speed survive the switch to 5th? I'm wondering if I can still employ the "Hit 'em 'ard an' fast!" technique (which requires no skill whatsoever, should it even be called a technique?) safely enough. Also because I don't have the 5th Ed. rulebook yet.

Nothing about KoS has really changed. If anything, its anti-tank assault capability has improved, with Furious Charge and always hitting rear armor. The LOS changes affect the army like any other... can't figure what else to mention on it.

If you're going to use KOS you need to go totally OTT with the early charge, you need to essentially charge and kill at least half of the opposition on the same turn, otherwise the fact you are now I2(3) and can't consolidate into other units means your little Truk boyz are going to get shot to buggary after the charge unless you can kill the majority of the opposition, or concentrate on one flank and try and use cover and roll up the gun line.

the real problem is the loss of survivability both in combat and in terms of not running away when shot at.

It's been working great for me!! I have been putting together a KOS Army, and it's really been doing well!!!

Must admit most of the guys I'm playing are pretty new to this, as am I.

What I did find is that you need a LOT of Bikes, I am currently modifying my Army for the Warboss on a bike.

THe biggest problems I see with the KOS are as follows.

1. Kill Points. My 1700 point KOS that I took to the Canadian GT would have had 19 KPs. THis is just asking for losing 1/3 of your games under 5th. With some tweaks I can get it down to about 15-16, which is still pretty bad.

2. True LOS. It's vital to hide the trukks going in until you are ready to charge. Now with TLOS, it's going to be very difficult to engage the enemy without having your trukks blown out from under you, since you will be able to be seen across 90% of the board. And no amount of 4+ cover saves are going to save those poor AV10 trukks.

3. No consolidate from one close combat to another. So after your trukkers kill your enemy, they get to stand around for a turn and get shot. You have to be able to get a lot of boyz in across a large front, or else try and let the enemy survive the initial round of combat, and wipe him out on his turn.

I'm thinking that 4-6 12 man squads in trukks are better off being replaced with 2-3 20 man squads in battlewagons, if you want to be effective, but you'll have to play some games to see.

May I ask how you have 19KPs? A full FOC should max out at 17 (2 HQ, 3 Elite, 6 Troops, 3 FA and 3HS).

I do agree though that squads of 20 in a BW might be more effective. Still the weakness of the assualt based KOS is no consolidation. If you run into a large infantry based IG army you should be able to kill about half his army with your trukkers (assuming that the trukks survive long enough to deliver - big big assumption there). But then you're left hanging out waiting on the other half of the army to decimate your boyz.

Remember that trukks are also worth 1 KP. So that's 2 for every Troop slot.

Eh, a large IG army is going to be one of the best suited lists for opposing Horde or Trukk Orks. Even assuming Orks get first turn and jump 18", you're going to lose at least half of those to heavy weapons fire. And if the IG luck out and get the first draw, you could very easily see every trukk destroyed before they cross the field. Then you have the issue of smaller squad sizes and numerous consolidations leaving you out to dry in flamer kill zones... and Guard can carry a lot... I mean a LOT... of flamers.

Green skinned Git:

Hey can you post your army list I would love to see it!!

Coming to similiar conclusion regarding the BW.

I have been using the trucks though as cover after they get blown up.

Basically once they drop the troops off they either run over some guys, or move to cover the troops they just dropped off.

Mike

I haven't seen KoS as all-that-viable under the new codex at all, let alone under 5th ed.

With trukks slowing down, and boyz speeding up, the difference between packing 18 extra boyz into a squad, or taking a trukk just doesn't favour the trukkers. Plus, shoota boyz are the better tactical choice, and trukks really favour slugga boyz, so you're losing out there too.

I just think that they're far too luck dependent. Without first-turn, you're risking losing the trukks and facing a long walk without numbers to back you up. You need favourable terrain, a favourable mission, and probably a couple of other things to go your way. Unlike the green-tide, which swamps just about everyone in numbers.

So here was my list: With the new codex, I ended up being not a true KOS anymore, I added in the SAG and elites as a shooty element.

1 warboss on bike - Klaw, slugga, attack squig, bike, and cybork body.
1 Big mek with shokk attak gun.

15 kommandos - 2 rokkits. Nob with klaw and bosspole
12 lootas

11 boyz with rokkit, in a trukk with rokkit. Nob with klaw and bosspole X3
11 boyz with Big shoota, in a trukk with big shoota. Nob with klaw and bosspole X1
11 boyz with big shoota, in a trukk with big shoota. Nob with uge choppa and bosspole X1 (this last squad, I didn't have the points for another Klaw, and I like to have a cheap squad to be the first in line to be shot, or to take suicide missions)

2 warbuggies with twin linked rokkits
1 warbuggy with skorcha
3 warbikes

zapp gun w/ 2 krew and 1 ammo runt X3
I have 3 points left so I'm adding one extra krewman to one battery - lucky the grot that I've had since Rogue Trader days.

Total - 1700 points.

Oops, It would be 20 KP's. My list did quite well. I ended up tied for 3rd overall. If I could have missed out a seek and destroy mission vs Tau on a wide open board I'm very confident I could have possibly won best overall.

If you are interested in my old GT batreps they are over at the Waaagh.
http://www.the-waaagh.com/forums/index.php?showtopic=32712&hl=

I've been running my KOS all through 4th edition and was very competitive in any tournaments I went in. But I had lots of experience with the list which helped I think. The only armies that ever really gave me grief were Tau and Mech Sisters. (I've never beaten Mech sisters... my best buddies army.)
Lots of things that seem bad with my list don't turn out to be when you have experience. My lootas, SAG and individual zaps all stayed in the backfield, and where generally not shot at because 5 trukks, 2 buggy squadrons, the boss and the bikes where all bearing down on my opponents.

The one think KOS do have going for them is that it's really difficult to lose to footslogging orks. If everyone switches over to them, then you'll have a great time being a spoiler army.

You really think KoS can beat Sloggers?

I don't. Not anymore. All I do is make one of my units of 30 boys sacrificial. They sit up front, so when you make your charges, you hit them. That unit dies, you're left in the open, where my other units counter charge, outnumbering you 2-1, and getting the charge bonus.

4th ed was a totally different beast - you could consolidate into a new unit. Without that, you're killing one unit and getting counter-charged.

Now of course a lot depends on scenario, board set up and so on, but I'd much rather have mobility and being able to charge you whenever and wherever I want to. Footsloggers are too slow and unweildy.

Now not actually having played the above scenario in 5th edition, I have to admit that it's theory hammer at the moment, but I'm looking forward to giving it a go. I certainly never had any problems in 4th.

Your list might do well against small, elite armies like what was seen in 4th ed commonly, but you just don't have the staying power to put up much of a fight beyond turn 3 against larger units. Removing consolidation into new units makes your small squads very, very vulnerable to shooting.

Democratus wrote:Remember that trukks are also worth 1 KP. So that's 2 for every Troop slot.

Don't I feel slowed.

greenskinned git wrote:
Oops, It would be 20 KP's. My list did quite well. I ended up tied for 3rd overall. If I could have missed out a seek and destroy mission vs Tau on a wide open board I'm very confident I could have possibly won best overall.
The one think KOS do have going for them is that it's really difficult to lose to footslogging orks. If everyone switches over to them, then you'll have a great time being a spoiler army.

congrats on 3rd

I think you might be mistaken on the KOS viability vs a more diverse ork army. With your trukks only getting cover saves most of the time (unless there's some big hills and/or large buildings on the table) lootas should have a field day popping trukks. BS in mobs should be able to slow them down also. Even if the trukks don't get shot, after your first wave hits it's sitting there in the open to be shot by shootas and charged.

Having said all that, I have a KOS list sitting around for next week to play with...

greenskinned git wrote:Now of course a lot depends on scenario, board set up and so on, but I'd much rather have mobility and being able to charge you whenever and wherever I want to.

But, see, you don't. Against a good player, you don't get the option to charge whenever and wherever you want, you get the option to charge them where they position themselves to be charged. I played KoS almost exclusively in the old codex, and that part of the equation hasn't changed. Against the average player, you'll get to pick some charges. Against the good players, you're basically going where they want you in order to get any charge, or dancing around and hoping they don't pop you.

And, here's the catcher. Orks, as a whole, are better than they were. Orks, as individuals, are worse. And, the KoS approach has problems getting enough boyz into the fight. You say, well, I'll coordinate a strike with three trukks at once, but when two of them pop, what do you do? Do you try to push it with just the one, or do you proceed as if on foot?

Footsloggers are too slow and unweildy.

I used to think that too. Not anymore. You can buy so many bodies that whatever your loss of speed is, it's made up for by the weight you bring to bear. And, they run now too. Plus, shoota boyz don't need to get stuck in to start dealing the damage.

And, you NEED the bodies now. Orks don't survive long. I was playing a game the other night. My opponent had about 15 templars in a LRC. Try as I did, I couldn't pop it, and he got the charge on me. 15 bolt pistol shots to start with killed about 6 boyz, and then his charge killed at least 15. Once you're below 11 boyz left, with combat modifiers being based on wound-differential, expect to run whenever you're charged. Trukk units will have a hard time surviving the initial charge against competent opponents.

I haven't played any games of 5th yet, but I'm leaning towards Redbeard's grim outlook for KOS. I played KOS when the new book came out for a while, and had great success. It ate gaurd, mauled marines, chomped nidzilla and I think it would have been an excellent spoiler for horde orks, though being the only ork player around I never got to find out .

But it relied heavily on hiding behind hills and area terrain on turn 1, or behind each other in some particularly bare boards. Now you can't do that. Those extra 6 inches meant a lot- 18 doesn't cut it. And no consolidation and counter charge means those marine squads just got a lot tougher to take down, as did those big ork mobs. KPs and combat res are the final nails in the coffin. In almost any situation, a horde is going to be better. I think that's a shame, because I played horde and found it tedious and painful to use (and it means I'm going to have to re-paint a load of obvious squad markers to make it easier to do!). I'm going to give battlewagon speed freaks a go, and try out KOS some more before calling it a day though. But on the face of it, it's not looking good.
Ah well. At least horde is still viable.

But I hate horde. I really do. KOS should be viable. Its a staple of the 40K universe. It sucks that codex designers couldn't think past their own desires.

Anyway, I've put together a 1750 list thats trimmed off a lot of fat. I'll post it in army lists. Let me know what you think.

I'm not a fan myself. It's too much like work!
And the fast-but-fragile nature of KoS made them fun for me. But there's more than two ways to play orks. I'm sure I could have some fun with a Nobs army.

Fun yes, effective no.

Orcs is one of the armies that can do the most diversed things and still stay competative. But usually there is just one build that is the better.

I really agree with all you guys including you Redbeard, although I do think I can take out footsloggers. We'll just have to agree to disagree.
I know my army is not going to be very good in 5th as is. Right now, I'm trying to decide what changes to make. For me the KOS was all about manuever and key strikes and that was the fun. If you look at my earlier posts in this thread, I think trukks are not going to be the way to go. I'm considering loading all my trukks with shootas, so I can apply the entire armies firepower against one side of the field with drivebys, but 6" max move to shoot the passengers puts a little damper into that.

I'm personally favoring 2-3 battlewagon squads of 20 as my troops armed with shootas. If only they would release that damn battlewagon kit before January! I'm just not much of a scratchbuilder. Little stuff sure, but I don't think I can make a decent BW.

My optimum configuration that I'm playing with theoretically now is going to be a setup similar to my dark eldar army. 2 nasty HTH squads - nobs or Mega armoured nobs, with the rest of the army as a solid shooty army on foot or mounted following behind. THey should be able to take the shots after wiping out whatever they hit and survive, and slowly roll through the enemy lines. The trick will be getting them there.

I am determined to try and keep the KOS effective. When I first read the new rules, I thought that the KOS was totally boned. I'm stubbourn though, Footsloggers just aren't any fun for me. Every game would be exactly the same. And being solely a tournament player, I used to run out of time all the time with my freeks. I think that 180 boyz on foot wont win many games around here because a lot of guys will never get past turn 3.

Footsloggers are just tiring to play. I can't imagine running them over three games in a day with my habitual tournament hangover.
I'm with you on the fun parts of KoS.

Yeah I'm gonna give the wagons a try too. I'm trying to muster the will to convert a land raider crusader into a wagon at the moment- like you, I don't have much scratch building skill. I've got the forgeworld squiggoth for my other wagon, which solves the problem nicely and lets me use a cool model.

You can't fire if you move about 6" anymore? That's lame.

I like the battlewagon approach. Mix in stormboyz who can advance behind the wagons on turn 1, and you could get 100 boyz stuck in on turn 2, without exposing them to anything except the few shots that can hurt the battlewagon. Add a mek to give those wagons a 4+ too.

Roughly:
Warboss w/ powerklaw, toys
Mek w/ powerklaw, forcefield
20 boyz, PK nob, in battlewagon 1
19 boyz, pk nob, in battlewagon 2 w/ mek
19 boyz, pk nob, in battlewagon 3 w/ warboss
20 stormboyz, pk nob
20 stormboyz, pk nob
Battlewagons are left simple w/ kannon, roller, riggers and armour plates.

Not bad.
I actually have nearly enough stormboys to do that.
It's totally sick that you can give AV14 vehicles a 4+ save now.