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Reading through the new FAQ for WH, I came across an interesting ruling, regarding Sister Repentias and GTG…

And after rereading the Repentias rules, it dawned on me that this ruling might actually make sense, or at least, shead some light on a possible solution to the question, regarding BT’s Righteous Zeal and GTG.

Now the issue at hand is not, that the BT may choose to GTG and then perform a RZ – The overall concent is that they can…The main problem was “Are they considered GTG after performing RZ??”

Now lets go back to the Repentias rule:

Righteous Zeal: Should the Repentia ever suffer particular heavy losses they may be gripped by a fervour that exceeds even their normal unhinged state of mind, and should their Mistress fall their righteous anger is likely to be unleashed regardless of the outcome. Should they ever fail a morale check they will move 2D6” towards the nearest enemy unit, instead of falling back, at the end of the shooting phase…

Sort of sounds like the BT’ RZ (?)

Now the FAQ:

Q. If a Sisters Repentia unit that has ‘gone to ground’ subsequently fails a morale check and has to move 2D6” (but doesn’t reach the nearest enemy unit), does the unit return to its ‘gone to ground’ status after finishing the move?

A. No

While this is not a 100% failsafe way, of ruling BT’ RZ vs GTG – I think it gives a good hint of an answer, that yes, they may move freely after having GTG then pass/failed their RZ move.

Comments? Thoughts?

Looking at this I believe that BTs are no longer "gone to ground" after making a Righteous Zeal move.

While one armys FAQ might not affect another army, it is a strong indication of intent.

I don't understand why this is being debated at all, either you can't RZ while you are gone to ground, or you can RZ while you are gone to ground because it's a fall back move and the GTG rules say that if you fall back you immediately return to normal.

edit: I suppose I oversimplify by calling it a fall back move but that's how I view it.

Drunkspleen wrote:I don't understand why this is being debated at all, either you can't RZ while you are gone to ground, or you can RZ while you are gone to ground because it's a fall back move and the GTG rules say that if you fall back you immediately return to normal.

edit: I suppose I oversimplify by calling it a fall back move but that's how I view it.

We have two different versions of Righteous Zeal here.

Witch Hunters make their 2D6" Righteous Zeal move if they fail their Morale Check.

Black Templars make their D6" Righteous Zeal move if they pass their Morale Check (which they get to take whenever they suffer a single casualty).



I think it's a little too simple to assume that one ruling will necessarily apply to the other situation. GW appears to be updating their FAQs more often now, so perhaps we will see some insight on the Black Templars at some point.

I look at it semi realistically.

they see a ton of incoming fire and drop to the ground or take cover.. their survivability goes up

now most smart commanders would stay put and wait it out for a little while (1 turn)

but templar don't have that luxury.. and yes it can bite them in the arse. the moment the gunline lets up, they jump up and start running towards the guys shooting at them.

but then of cource they're no longer gone to ground.

meh templar and sisters need all the help they can get.. I'm cool with it working this way

its better than them having the choice to go to ground since they're on an objective and dont WANT to zeal towards you.

It's a problem because Templars just need to suffer a single casualty to take a Morale check and then pass it, usually on a Ld10.

This allows them to go to ground and get the +1 cover save bonus against shooting and then (at the end of that same shooting phase) immediately ignore the penalties of losing their next turn by getting up and moving D6" forward.

In other words, they get to have their cake and eat it to. Which is why people have an issue with it.

Ah thanks for clearing that up Yakface, I have read the templar codex before but didn't remember it as when they pass rather than fail that they charge forward and now I can see why people are struggling to decide on how they should work.

As Steelmage99 points out, and that I should have noted in my entry... It is a strong indication of intent.

Sure the Templar would have a cake and eat it too, but they have done that in the past.

It is of course NOT an open and shut case - It is merely a plausible way of ruling - And yes the wording of the two RZ are different and there subtle differences, but IMHO they are basicly the same.

Off course all this will be settled in a n upcoming FAQ...


...Speaking of strong intent - turn to last page of the WH FAQ - last section (the credits), now how is that for strong intent!

Well I think its dumb that BT can get this boost, but I find it funny that going to ground specifically doesnt say pinned. If it had the BT would have not allowed them to get the Righteous zeal bonus on page 23 of their codex.

Maybe the word "pinned" was left on purpose or not since gone to ground is the effect of pinning.

I have read the BT FAQ's and they have stated that a pinned unit, is a unit that has failed a pinning test and" gone to ground".

In the rule book it states that when your pinned you " go to ground" but dont get the cover save benifit on page 31.

Since the result of pinning is going to ground one can infer that they are the same thing except pinning doesnt allow the bonus vs shooting from the unit which fired at it.



On page 24 it says under going to ground that morale tests can still be taken vs units that have gone to ground but the FAQ for the BT state that pinned units are units that have gone to ground.

So what is your conclusion, Broxus?
Are BTs still Gone to Ground after making their Righteous Zeal move (which is the real question in the OP)?

you have to remeber that to GTG you are not pinned you have gone to ground. templar can't move after GTG, plain and simple they can't. the zeal moves after the end of the shooting face, the GTG move is done before the saves are taken before you take the leadership test.

GTG is NOT PINNING, templar ignore pinning but do not ignore GTG and having to stay still.

yes but wash-away, you can still make fall back moves after you GTG and people are saying that righteous zeal falls into that category as a movement made as a result of a morale test. Fall Backs specifically cause the unit to "return to normal" breaking the GTG.

Personally, having looked at a copy of the black templar codex since I heard about this debate I really don't know how to deal with it because I can see 5 different ways that this could be interpreted and reading the rules none seems particularly better than another in terms of being more correct.

I unno i'm a fan of marine push ups. Ground then zeal then back to ground (otherwise the GTG voluntary is almost pointless for them)

wash-away wrote:you have to remeber that to GTG you are not pinned you have gone to ground. templar can't move after GTG, plain and simple they can't. the zeal moves after the end of the shooting face, the GTG move is done before the saves are taken before you take the leadership test.

GTG is NOT PINNING, templar ignore pinning but do not ignore GTG and having to stay still.

Well here is what Ive come up with if your pinned it forces you to go to ground. Since under the BT FAQs it says:

Q. What is a ‘pinned’ unit?
A. A pinned unit is simply a unit that has failed a
pinning test and has gone to ground.

Then I would say no they do not get there RZ movement. SO if the unit voluntarily goes to ground then they still woundnt get RZ move since specifies going to ground.

Broxus, that isn't really the issue.
Most people seem to think that BTs get their RZ move.
The issue is wether they revert to the state of having Gone to Ground afterwards.

Steelmage99 wrote:Broxus, that isn't really the issue.
Most people seem to think that BTs get their RZ move.
The issue is wether they revert to the state of having Gone to Ground afterwards.

unless your a rules lawyer if you are running at the enemy and you get shot at and GTG, if you zeal afterwerds you have to stand up and run again. I doubt your going to get to the enemy and lay back down, how much sense does that make?

I still don't think they can move after GTG though.

Firstly, you only get the benifit of going to ground once, the time you actually do it.

Second if the BT are pinned which forces them to "go to ground" they wont get a RZ move afterwards since morale tests are taken after the unit would opt to go to ground.

They dont get a RZ if they are pinned and the FAQ says this about determining if a unit is pinned.

Q. What is a ‘pinned’ unit?
A. A pinned unit is simply a unit that has failed a
pinning test and has gone to ground.

This along with the rule book tells us that all pinning does is forces you to "go to ground" without the extra cover save bonus as it is to late.

So once that BT decides to "go to ground" he is stuck there and infact you can still shoot at him and he cant make the RZ move since it isnt allowed if you have "gone to ground", per the codex.

I hope the above post makes sense, the point Im trying hard to make is that a pinning test forces you to go to ground just like a Morale test would allow you to take RZ moves. Its both cause and effect so the BT cant get their cake and eat it to.

Broxus, please try to forget about Pinning for a second. A unit Pinned is indeed Gone to Ground, but a unit going to ground is not Pinned. Assume all I say in this post is based on a unit that has Gone to Ground of its own free will.

The thing is that a unit Gone to Ground will fall back if it fails a Moral test due to taking shooting casualties and then return to normal immediately.
BTs fall back in a special way. Will they return to normal immediately after falling back (in their special way)?

I know what exactly what you are talking about. And Im telling you that they dont get the RZ move if they go to ground.

The Pinning description in the FAQ is there for a reason, your ignoring it. I will put it one more time.

Q. What is a ‘pinned’ unit?
A. A pinned unit is simply a unit that has failed a
pinning test and has gone to ground.

What Im saying is this is two things not just one. Quit looking at it as one thing otherwise why would it be included in the FAQ and we wouldnt need a clarification of when a unit is pinned, its I mean duh pinned. The part the entire FAQ is there for is "gone to ground."

Your looking at this as a cause and effect FAQ. I am looking at it as two seperate items the first being a unit is considered pinned when it fails a pinning test and the second when a unit has gone to ground both are considered pinned for RZ.

It might help you understand my point if i change a single word that might have been a better choice. It should have been worded a bit better.

Q. What is a ‘pinned’ unit?
A. A pinned unit is simply a unit that has failed a
pinning test or has gone to ground.

Now other units can take morale tests if pinned or gone to ground to see if they break and run but, BT cant. Their faith wont allow them to run.

The problem Is it could go so many ways.

1. Black Templar can go to ground, if they pass a morale test they will righteous zeal which is effectively a fall back move leaving them standing up again.

2. Black Templar can go to ground, if they pass a morale test they will righteous zeal however as it is not explicitly a fall back move they do not return to normal and stay GTG.

3. Black Templar can go to ground, but they will not take the morale test for losing a single model because they are in a state similar to pinned.

4. Black Templar cannot go to ground because it prevents movement and when BT pass a morale test they MUST move. (admittedly alot less likely since a GTG unit that was assaulted could consolidate)

But all you have to do is read the right sentences in the right way and you can come up with all sorts of different solutions, I don't know that there is a solution for this at the moment other than discuss it with your opponent before the game and make GW get out some more FAQs soon.

okay can I clear something up here

TEMPLAR CAN NOT BE PINNED.

GTG is not pinning it is GTG and only GTG,

please re-read GTG ruls on pg 24 of your rule book, it says specifically they can not move afterwards.

GTG IS NOT A PINNING MOVE IT IS GTG.

Since when can Black Templars not be pinned, if this is the case why is there an exception in their Righteous Zeal rule that says you don't take a morale test for losing just 1 marine if you are pinned.

the effect of Pinning is that you go to ground, therefore a pinned unit is one that has gone to ground as a result of enemy shooting. This isn't people extrapolating from similarities, the rules for pinning weapons say "If the unit fails the test, it is immediately forced to go to ground (as described on page 24)."

That said, you may well be right in that they are very different in terms of the core rules, but then depending on how you interpret the line "A pinned unit is simply a unit that has failed a pinning test and has gone to ground." you can see in the FAQ that a gone to ground unit is classed as pinned (this could have been ruled alot more clearly).

If we are saying that the name is what defines it, then RZ isn't a fallback move, so they get up run and go back to ground if anything. It specifically says it is a consolidate which adds credence to this.

edit: I should clarify that whether GTG is pinned for the purposes of RZ or not it doesn't really matter because it only stops them from taking the morale check for a single casualty, a unit that is GTG and takes 25% casualties will still pose a problem.

1. Wash-Away, Black Templar are not immune to pinning. No idea where you got that idea, but it just ain't so.

2. broxus, yes, they put that in the FAQ. But WHY? Merely to point out that Pinning now uses Go to Ground or what. Without another line or two explaining why they put it in there, it means nothing.

In 5th ed, Pinning, in and of itself, does not exist. Pinning weapons have the effect of forcing a unit to GtG if they fail a Leadership test. At that point all GtG rules apply except taht the unit cannot receive the bonus to cover saves against the unit that caused the pinning. However, they will receive the bonus to cover saves if you should then shoot at them with another unit later in the shooting phase.

Drunkspleen. OK, I'll bite. Why would BT not take their RZ test if they have gone to ground, voluntarily or due to pinning? GtG says a unit will react to enemy actions. Taking a casualty from enemy shooting is an enemy action. RZ requires them to test if they take a single wound or more.

Personally, I'm in the camp that says they get up and move forward and are no lnger GtG, but I do hope that GW FAQs this. It needs it.

The only reason they wouldn't take the RZ test is because the RZ rule which says they test if they lose a single model has an exception for pinned units, if that FAQ bit meant to be indicating that GTG is pinning in terms of that rule then a unit that is GTG would have to take 25% casualties before it took a morale test, rather than when a single model dies, just like a pinned unit would do in 4th.

Personally, I'm in the camp that says they get up and move forward and are no lnger GtG,

For them to no longer be GtG they would have to have FAILED the Morale check by RAW. They passed it, so they remain GtGed. So "push-ups" it is IMHO.

Also keep in mind the RZ move is defined as a "consolidation" move not a "fall back" as some have erroneously stated here.

Drunkspleen wrote:The only reason they wouldn't take the RZ test is because the RZ rule which says they test if they lose a single model has an exception for pinned units, if that FAQ bit meant to be indicating that GTG is pinning in terms of that rule then a unit that is GTG would have to take 25% casualties before it took a morale test, rather than when a single model dies, just like a pinned unit would do in 4th.

Or, since they didn't say what they meant, they could be saying that the new GtG rules replace the old pinning and the pinning statement is no longer valid..... We don't know because they didn't say what they were trying to explain with that comment.

Nurgleboy77 wrote:

Personally, I'm in the camp that says they get up and move forward and are no lnger GtG,

For them to no longer be GtG they would have to have FAILED the Morale check by RAW. They passed it, so they remain GtGed. So "push-ups" it is IMHO.

Also keep in mind the RZ move is defined as a "consolidation" move not a "fall back" as some have erroneously stated here.

Hehehhee, actually, by the BT codex, there is no such thing as RZ any more, since it refers to the Massacre result as how they move, and there is no longer a massacre result in the rulebook..................
Anyways, a unit that has GtG will react to enemy actions, yes or no? You shoot at BTs and inflict a casyualty, is that an enemy action? If both answers are yes, the BT get to RZ. Falling back is not the ONLY reaction units will make, it just happens to be the one they used as an example, as it will be the most common occurence.

yes but the specific instance that you "return to normal" is if the unit fails a Morale check, not passes it liek RZ does. So the unit GtG and RZs forward, but is still "grounded" for the next turn.

Nurgleboy77 wrote:yes but the specific instance that you "return to normal" is if the unit fails a Morale check, not passes it liek RZ does. So the unit GtG and RZs forward, but is still "grounded" for the next turn.

Was that a "specific instance" as in the only time it can occur or was it a continuation of the previous sentence where it mentions falling back as an example of reacting to enemy actions. If the second, then wouldn't that example apply to ALL reactions to enemy actions?