Forum adverts like this one are shown to any user who is not logged in. Join us by filling out a tiny 3 field form and you will get your own, free, dakka user account which gives a good range of benefits to you: No adverts like this in the forums anymore. Times and dates in your local timezone. Full tracking of what you have read so you can skip to your first unread post, easily see what has changed since you last logged in, and easily see what is new at a glance. Email notifications for threads you want to watch closely. Being a part of the oldest wargaming community on the net. If you are already a member then feel free to login now.

Are Gun drones worth kill points if they were taken as vehicle wargear (devilfish, hammerheads, piranha). If yes then does this still apply if the drones were destroyed at the same time as the vehicle (as the drones have not become a unit yet), or during deployment does a vehicle with gun drones worth 2kp instead of the standard 1?

This is a question because when a vehicle is destroyed that had equipped gun drones they "disembark" if they vehicle is destroyed and act as a new unit. But the issue is if a unit is created "mid game" is it a unit for kill point purposes? Now the rule also says that they don't "disembark" if destroyed before becoming a new unit. So is said vehicle worth 2kp at deployment?

When gun drones separate from the vehicle they become a separate unit for KP purposes. Whether that separation is due to disembarking from a destroyed or healthy vehicle does not matter.

So does that mean they are worth 2 KP right from the get? Or is there a chance its only 1 if the vehicle is destroyed AND the drones are destroyed before they get a chance to disembark? That was the REAL question i was getting at sorry

The Tau Empire codex says gun drones are "treated as passengers if the vehicle is damaged".

I would take this to mean that the moment damage is being done to the vehicle they are considered an entirely seperate squad worth 1KP in addition to whatever they were mounted on being another squad, even if the vehicle doesn't end up destroyed.

It's interesting because I hadn't thought of this, I think it's a bit harsh especially given how rarely I used to detach my gun drones, Makes the 20 points for a smart missile system seem like a bargain, too bad neither it or the burst cannon are defensive.

Drunkspleen wrote:The Tau Empire codex says gun drones are "treated as passengers if the vehicle is damaged".

That's in context for weapon destroyed and shaken stunned results, context MAN CONTEXT!!!! And its TREATED as passengers not becomes passengers. So is it 2 on deployment or 1 then a "possible" 1 more, since they only become a new unit if they successfully disembark.

Well I don't think I have really taken it out of context but even still. If it were say, 5 marines in a rhino and the rhino was destroyed - explodes! and the marines didn't make it out of the wreckage would they not give away a Kill Point?
I can't see anyway to destroy the devilfish without the drones atleast getting to roll to see if they survived.

I see what you are trying to say but I think they become a unit the second you roll to see if they are destroyed in the crash or not because at that point the vehicle is damaged and they are treated as passengers.

I think it's not very good that it goes this way and think GW should put out a FAQ ruling that they are never worth a KP personally, but the way the rules are provided at the moment I think there's no way to avoid the fact that they will become a seperate unit worth another kill point even if they die in the crash

But the eratta says they don't count as passenger's for the purpose of firing since they can't fire if shaken or stunned. Meaning while on they fish they are not passengers, or they are with all the bad and no good? O.o

passengers cannot fire from a vehicle that is shaken or stunned so the ruling in the FAQ is in line with them being passengers actually. However I hadn't looked at the FAQ in full before now and given the question immediately after that one:

"Q. Do all of a vehicle’s drones need to be
destroyed before the vehicle gives up its full
victory points?
A. Disengaged Drones have no effect on how
many victory points the vehicle gives up. This is
based solely on the condition of the actual
vehicle model."

I kind of get the feeling that here they are saying that even when the drones detach they aren't kill points, although RAW it definitely isn't. I think I would probably play it that they are never kill points with friends since it seems brutally unfair to call 2 15 point drones a kill point. RAW, I'm not so sure now but I still think if they can become a unit that gives away a Kill Point it probably happens before they test to die on a destroyed result, rather than after.

Then that brings up a more complex issue! Conversely though, is it possible that disembarked drones count as scoring units?

To be a scoring unit you must be
a) From the troops selection [they are],
b) not a vehicle [they are not]

Also Tau codex, pg 31 states " They are similarily counted when determining if a unit is strong enough to claim objectives", so at least for 4th edition it looks as if they were designed to take objectives (or assist in it)

It seems to me there is a good case for them being scoring units

I'd count them as giving up an extra killpoint.

There are a few examples of models that can be bought as troops, or as non-troops, but are exactly the same on the table. If the vehicle they came off of was bought as Troops, I'd count them as scoring. If it was bought as a non-troops choice, I wouldn't.

I think the answer lies in WHEN diembarkation occurs due to the destruction of a vehicle. If the wound rolls and saves are made before disembarking, then the drones give up no KP's. However, if the RAW instucts you to disembark then determine casualties among the unit, then the drones become a unit worth KP's. ( I don't have my BGB handy to check.)

@Red: I think p.31 is talking about Shield Drones tied to Suits, back when Suits were still Scoring...

If the Drones were purchased as a Vehicle Option, then they weren't purchased as Troops, so Non-Scoring.

But if Drones were purchased as a Troops upgrade, then yes, they're Scoring.

And Drones definitely give up a KP when destroyed, just like any other unit.

Per the Tau Vehicle Armoury pg 30. under the bold heading {Gun Drones} "The drones may not rejoin the vehicle durning a game and never count as a scoring unit." So, Gun drones from the Devil Fish, do not score, but why not contest? 30 points of drones makes the priority list when they contest your objectives.

Gun drone squadrons are a fast attack choice, so non-scoring.

Devilfish while being in the Troops section have been determined not to be troops as they are transports and are taken to be dedicated transports.

Pathfinder Devilfish presumably counts as Fast Attack? I don't know...

Any separate model or group of models counts as a unit, so detached gundrones would be a unit.

Do undetached gundrones count as passengers for shooting? They can't use the vehicle's target matrix upgrade.

Let's face it, the drone rules are a mess. 4th edition cocked up the 3rd edition codex, the 4th edition codex was full of FAQs that never got answered, and the 5th edition rules have changed things again.

So since they can i'll ask this one again :
So does that mean they are worth 2 KP right from the get? Or is there a chance its only 1kp if the vehicle is destroyed AND the drones are destroyed before they get a chance to disembark? That was the REAL question i was getting at sorry

Better check if the drones count as passengers or secondary weapons until detached from the Devilfish.

If they are secondary weapons, they do not become a separate unit until they detach or attempt to detach due to crashing.

This would mean that if the Fish were blown up in one hit, the drones would not get the chance to detach and would not be worth a separate KP as they would still be a part of the vehicle.

God its so confusing...

Kilkrazy wrote:If they are secondary weapons, they do not become a separate unit until they detach or attempt to detach due to crashing.

This would mean that if the Fish were blown up in one hit, the drones would not get the chance to detach and would not be worth a separate KP as they would still be a part of the vehicle.

Maybe I'm missing something but how can you destroy the Vehicle, and have the drones die without them getting to attempt to detach due to crashing in light of the codex saying drones are "treated as passengers if the vehicle is damaged".

It's currently 1KP for the devilfish and 1KP for the drones. It's not fair, but that's the RAW of it. For what it's worth, any model of any kind can contest, so this includes gun-drones detached from a fish.

Regardless of the troop status, as Datajax pointed out, detached drones are never scoring. So no claiming objectives with them, only contesting and yielding double KPs for wanting to transport your FWs.

Oh and if you think it's bad for Tau. Think about the poor Biovore. Firing 1 KP at your opponent per turn? Really??

Drunkspleen wrote:

Kilkrazy wrote:If they are secondary weapons, they do not become a separate unit until they detach or attempt to detach due to crashing.

This would mean that if the Fish were blown up in one hit, the drones would not get the chance to detach and would not be worth a separate KP as they would still be a part of the vehicle.

Maybe I'm missing something but how can you destroy the Vehicle, and have the drones die without them getting to attempt to detach due to crashing in light of the codex saying drones are "treated as passengers if the vehicle is damaged".

What if the vehicle is blown up in a titanic explosion? I can't remember the damage table and don't have the rulebook with me, so I am imagining that the most severe damage results blows up the vehicle, crew and passengers with no saving throw.

No such animal in 5th edition. Perhaps something wacky in apocalypse like a vortex grenade, but KPs are not really an issue there.

The issue is that the tau codex says that gun drones don't "form" a new unit until they disembark, so on a 6 on the vehicle damage table the drones could die before they disembark... so would that still be 2kp or just 1?

Kilkrazy wrote:What if the vehicle is blown up in a titanic explosion? I can't remember the damage table and don't have the rulebook with me, so I am imagining that the most severe damage results blows up the vehicle, crew and passengers with no saving throw.

The damage table goes up to Destroyed - Explodes!, which forces passengers out suffering a St 4 hit, and taking a pinning test.

Think about the poor Biovore. Firing 1 KP at your opponent per turn? Really??

Is there anything official on this or is this just a view some people have decided to take because I really don't think that there's anything which makes this a clear cut decision. by the same token wouldn't I get a kill point for walking over the minefield that a whirlwind can create? I think any sort of unit or marker or whatever which is generated after deployment and doesn't appear on the army list isn't a KP, so spore mines from biovores, scarabs from tomb spyders, and the whirlwind minefield to name a few.

The issue is that the tau codex says that gun drones don't "form" a new unit until they disembark, so on a 6 on the vehicle damage table the drones could die before they disembark... so would that still be 2kp or just 1?

The codex never explicitly says this, it is something you have inferred from the wording used in describing what happens when you detach them in the movement phase. What the codex does explicitly state, word for word, however is that the drones are "treated as passengers if the vehicle is damaged". If you are destroying the vehicle it is damaged, if the vehicle is damaged the drones are treated as passangers, if the drones are being treated as passengers they are a seperate unit from the devilfish.

Red_Lives wrote:The issue is that the tau codex says that gun drones don't "form" a new unit until they disembark, so on a 6 on the vehicle damage table the drones could die before they disembark... so would that still be 2kp or just 1?

With a careful reading of the Gun drones as vehicle wargear entry, the drones form an independent unit if they disembark during the Tau movement phase. They are treated as passengers for the purposes of vehicle damage, but there is no indicator of how they would be handled after being damaged as passengers in a phase that is not the Tau movement phase. This is highly nitpicking, but I suppose we are talking RAW? The FAQ indicates that drones disembarking from a destroyed piranha in a squadron disembark all at once and form a single unit. We could then transfer that ruling onto the Devilfish and start asking questions about the RAW of when a unit is formed vs. when the damage is dealt...
Really though, by RAW it's completely buggered up and will need direct clarification to get it out of 4+ it territory.

What we can reason out of the rulebook is this:

1. When shooting, Gun Drones operate as part of the Devilfish.
2. When the Devilfish is damaged, Gun Drones are treated as Passengers.

This is a little too messy rules-wise but seems to be how it works from the way it reads.

So if the devilfish explodes the Gun Drones should be allowed to deploy.

Moz wrote:Think about the poor Biovore. Firing 1 KP at your opponent per turn? Really??

Yup. A Spore Mine is a "unit" with a statline and gives up a KP just like anything else. It's just a really crappy unit that doesn't do anything but wander and explode.

Drunkspleen wrote:Is there anything official on this or is this just a view some people have decided to take because I really don't think that there's anything which makes this a clear cut decision. by the same token wouldn't I get a kill point for walking over the minefield that a whirlwind can create?

I think any sort of unit or marker or whatever which is generated after deployment and doesn't appear on the army list isn't a KP, so spore mines from biovores, scarabs from tomb spyders, and the whirlwind minefield to name a few.

A Minefield isn't an enemy unit. It's area terrain. So if you don't get KPs for it.

A Spore Mine isn't a marker like a Vortex Grenade. It's a unit composed of a single model.

Scarabs are definitely units, and definitely give up KPs.

Whirlwind markers are just Terrain.

JohnHwangDD wrote:

Moz wrote:Think about the poor Biovore. Firing 1 KP at your opponent per turn? Really??

Yup. A Spore Mine is a "unit" with a statline and gives up a KP just like anything else. It's just a really crappy unit that doesn't do anything but wander and explode.

Okay, if it is a Nid unit, then it gives up a KP. OTOH, that also means it can Run and contest objectives.

Also, that unit does not come into existence until after the biovore misses. So if it hits, no KP.

strange_eric wrote:What we can reason out of the rulebook is this:

1. When shooting, Gun Drones operate as part of the Devilfish.
2. When the Devilfish is damaged, Gun Drones are treated as Passengers.

This is a little too messy rules-wise but seems to be how it works from the way it reads.

So if the devilfish explodes the Gun Drones should be allowed to deploy.

Actually the drones do not act as part of the Fish since they cannot make use of the Targetting Array to enhance their BS if the Fish has one. This was FAQed.

(My codex is locked in a warehouse in Tokyo so you'll have to forgive my lack of direct quotes.)