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Situation: Banshees in a Falcon.

Falcon moves 12"
Banshees disembark during movement phase
Banshees fleet D6" during shooting phase
Banshees assault 6" during assault phase

Does fleet of foot overrule the no assaulting when disembarking rule, or does the no assaulting when disembarking rule overrule fleet?

Searched the forums, couldn't find it, although I imagine this one has been asked before.

Thanks.

Only thing fleet 'overrules' is the restriction on assaulting after running.
It has no effect on the restriction on assaulting after disembarking.

Hello My Friends…

I am a person who is looking into this matter with a real interest!

Here is my issues and also concern, when it comes to this matter. I have read these rule multiple times. I will be quoting from the book called 5th addition book called Warhammer 40,000. So let me begin.

Situation: Can Units deploying from fast or even any vehicle, can assault by using the rules of Fleet

Rule States:

Disembarking

I am referring to first sub-section under the Rule Disembark. Pg. 67 and I quote:

“If the vehicle has already moved (including pivoting on the spot), the passengers may disembark but not move any further in that Movement phase. Once the models have disembarked, the vehicle may not move any further (including pivoting on the spot). After Disembarking, these models may shoot, (counting as movement), but not assault.”

Okay this is how I read it. They may get out, and deploy within 2” of truck, tank, or what ever. And they may not move anymore in the movement phase, but the rule states it may shoot!

Here is next rule and I quote from the same book that I have quoted before. But this time on pg.16, Rules on running.

At times, warriors may have to quickly redeploy literally running from cover to cover or simply concentrating on movement and give up their chance to shoot. In there Shooting phase, units may choose to run instead of firing. Immediately moving d6” (we find that this is a popular choice for units that have no ranged weaponry or no target) Running movement is not affected by difficult terrain. – It is always simply D6” –but models running through dangerous terrain must test as normal. Units run in the Shooting Phase cannot assault in the Following phase.

Okay so I read this rule as if a unit can shoot it can therefore run! To me that make sense, they run out the door and get away from probably the exploding tank that just opened its doors. How many times do you see old shots of dudes, running away from their NPC? Now, the rules states that they may shoot after disembarking, therefore I choose to run instead. This also still works, because in the disembark rules it sates no more movement in the movement phase and may shoot or choose to run. No rules are in conflict! Now is where the rules get very questionable.

And I state from the rulebook one more time. Pg. 74

Universal Special Rule.

Many units of Models in Warhammer 40,000 have a unique special rule,

Fleet:

"There are many variants of this rule, Fleet of Foot, Fleet of Claw, even Fleet of Hoof. Title aside, all models with these abilities are treated as the same. A unit with this rule may assault in the same turn in which it has run."

The problem has been solved. It states that all models that have the Fleet rule and now can assault du to the run not disembark. So his means that a fast moving eldar Falcon tank has moved 12” and disembarked a unit of howling banshees. It deployed in its 2” deployment field. It then moves to the shooting phase and sees it can shoot. Instead of shooting, it takes the run choice and roles it D6. Then the model moves the random. It looks down the field and sees that wonderful terminator squad and grins. It declares the charge because it has now run and assaults! It doesn’t break the disembarking rule because it has run instead shoot. Now it declares its special universal rule. It now moves 3 inches and enters assault because it has followed the special rule of running which is Fleet of Foot. I have followed the rule of disembarkation. I have not assaulted due to disembarking, I have assault due to the fact I can shoot and choose to run.


I think many will have something to say to me about this. I am only following the chain of rules in this book. If GW has declared a ruling on this I also can not find it. I understand many say that I am stretching the rules but I am following their logic. This only affects maybe three, but the big one is the Eldar. This line of logic does follow the rules. This opens two cans of worms though makes the game more interesting in the way units move out of rhinos, Wave Serpents. Or any transports. Then if we can run the quick little nimble things can assault. A very interesting issue, therefore I must answer yes and also sending this email to Warhammer to see if they will make a rule on this.

Thank you for hearing me out.

Astalado,

This is pretty cut and dry, you could not do it in the old rules, and you can not do it in the new rules. Find some other loop hole to try to exploit,.... this is not one of them.

No, that's not how it works Astaldo, the way it works is, when you disembark you get an "effect" so to speak, which prevents you from assaulting, when you run in the shooting phase you get an additional "effect" which also prevents you from assaulting, Fleet only overrides the effect which running has in terms of assaulting, and the restriction for disembarking remains.

The way Fleet is worded it isn't even close to making this valid, it says you may assault in the same turn that you run, not you may assault after performing a run move or anything to that effect.

You cannot combine special rules like this into one big mess of a pile.

It's hard enough to try and interpret some of the new situations 5th edition has given us without people trying to blatantly exploit rules to take advantage of things that were NEVER intended by Games Workshop.

I think the rules are relatively clear that you can't Assault after disembarking from a vehicle that moved. I see the point of contention, but I think the rules are clear enough that the model can't assault at all that player turn.

FWIW, I think the intent is also that they can't assault.

My question is can a unit run after getting out of a vehicle that has moved??

Yes.

The Disembarking rules only prohibit them from moving in that Movement phase.

They can shoot as normal, and since the movement prohibition only applies to the Movement phase, that means that they can run.

I don't think so.

Too bad you're vehicle aren't open topped, like the Raider.

A plus for the Raider, FINALLY.

Seamus O'Shank wrote:I don't think so (To the TS)

Too bad you're vehicle aren't open topped, like the Raider.

A plus for the Raider, FINALLY.

I appear to have quoted myself... nice.

I meant to EDIT that my post was directed to the threadstarter's question.

That's the same bonus the raider has allways had though seamus, it can give people a rude shock if they havn't fought DE or Orks in a while.

Yes, those paper airplanes and soapbox derby trukks have some advantages.

To the OP, you most definitely CANNOT assault after disembarking from a non OT vehicle regardless of Fleet or not. Show me where Fleet says you can ALWAYS assault or you may assault after disembarking...you can't becuase it's not there.

Wow. I just joined but I actually played someone with this exact question. I posed the question as whether this was legal, but now I better understand the rules a bit better. Astalado posted the actual rules from the book which most can agree that it allows you to run after disembarking. The fleet special rule clearly allows anyone to assault after they run, therefore making fleet armies very dangerous. I believe that GW intended for this as most units that have fleet are poor shooters and excel at close combat. By adding all the saves and a possible 7 turns, this slows the game down, but with the fleet rule, it allows for assaulters to get into combat faster, as now they are unable to jump into a new assault using their consolidation move. Allowing them to disembark and shoot helps to balance them out. This question to me isn't whether units with fleet can assault after running, but rather if they can ignore the rule that you can run but not assault. Fleet is a universal special so does it override the actual rules? In an edition that points to the codexes for answers, I believe that this a rule that should be better defined.

I don't believe that anyone using this rule is really exploiting the rules but trying to find a more apprporiate way to field the Eldar (this only seems to apply to eldar!) My friend and I played a second game where this was not allowed and the eldar were easy prey to marines. I can see that this rule is very questionable, and I am also not sure what to believe.

As a general rule, you cannot assault after disembarking from a non-open topped vehicle that has moved. Astalado posted the rule that prohibits it. Fleet does not override this prohibition, just as Fleet does not allow you to assault after deep striking. So if you disembark from a non-open topped vehicle that has moved and you then run, you have two prohibitions against assaulting. Fleet cancels one of them but the other is still in effect.
And yes, IMO, anyone trying this is indeed trying to exploit the rules..............

You can assault out of a land raider lol, Thought there was talk about making the rhino an assault transport but I could be wrong.

We are dealing with two different restrictions on assaulting (as Don Mondo points out).

The disembarking rules restrict models that have disembarked from assaulting in the subsequent assault phase.

The running rules restrict models that have run from assaulting in the subsequent assault phase.


The 'fleet' USR allows models to ignore the restriction on not being able to assault after running.

The 'fleet' USR *does not* allow models to ignore the restriction on being able to assault after disembarking.


Anyone who tries to claim that they can assault after disembarking because of the fleet rule is breaking the rules and therefore cheating.

If you Disembark, you may not Assault.

You may still Fleet or Run, to get to a better position.

But Fleet doesn't specifically overrule the restriction on Disembarking, so it remains in force.

Good day Everyone,

As I said before, that I was going to email GW about this as well, in order to get an "official result" Please see the below email. If you do not believe me that this email is directly from them, supply me your email address and I will be more than happy to directly forward it from email without the copy and paste.

But as the final results are: IT IS ALLOWED!!!!!!!

Hello,

I will try to break this down as clearly as I can.



Models that disembark from a vehicle before it has moved may move, shoot and assault.

Models that disembark from a vehicle after it has moved may shoot, but cannot move or assault.

Models that disembark from an OPEN TOPPED vehicle after it has moved may shoot and assault, but not move.



In any of the above cases you can forgo shooting to run, but you will not be able to assault after running unless you have the fleet move. (this answers the original question, being that if you disembark a vehicle, you can then run, and assault after fleeting)



I hope that answers your questions please let me know if anything is not clear or if you have more questions.







Thanks!



John Spencer

Customer Service Specialist



Please do not delete previous email threads as this will help us serve you better!



Games Workshop

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Glen Burnie MD 21060



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Monday through Friday 9:00 Am to 7:00 PM EST



Contact info:

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Or visit us online at:

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I'd keep that email address handy as I think there's going to be a lot of contention in the next few posts.

lol trust me I have it handy!! I'm NOT deleting that email for ANYTHING! It's in my saved folder!

There's no real point saving it, because it's worthless.

Emails to GW do not get you 'official' rules answers. They get you an answer from a sales guy who answers rules questions in between processing orders.

Send the same question again, and you're likely to get the exact opposite answer, depending on who answers it.

You might get an opponent to accept it in a friendly game... but you won't get an answer from GW accepted on rules discussion forums unless it's in an FAQ or some other official publication.

*Sigh*


Games Workshop "customer service specialists" have no additional insights on how the rules work beyond you or I or anyone else for that matter.


The RULES are perfectly clear here and nothing the "customer service specialist" wrote to you changes what the rules actually say.


Models that disembark from a closed-topped vehicle are not allowed to assault. The Fleet USR does not alter that restriction in any way.

The deepstrike rules specifically say you may not assault even if you have fleet. (pg 96 of 5th ed rule book)

If they did not want us to use fleet after disembarking a vehicle, wouldn't they have specifically stated this here as well? Since they specifically stated it in the deepstrike rules, you would think they would state it in the disembarking area as well. -if they think about "fleet of foot" for one rule, wouldn't they have thought about this for the other rules, if they didn't want it to be used as well?
just my point of view..........

It seems alot of the objections seem based upon the rules that are puled from 4th ed
I would like to point out how radical some of the other changes have been. Also I was always under the impression That special abilities could overide standard /core rulebook rules.

Astalado wrote:The deepstrike rules specifically say you may not assault even if you have fleet. (pg 96 of 5th ed rule book)

If they did not want us to use fleet after disembarking a vehicle, wouldn't they have specifically stated this here as well? Since they specifically stated it in the deepstrike rules, you would think they would state it in the disembarking area as well. -if they think about "fleet of foot" for one rule, wouldn't they have thought about this for the other rules, if they didn't want it to be used as well?
just my point of view..........

That is a logical fallacy. Just because GW went out of there way in one instance (Deep Strike) to say that fleet cannot be used does not mean they have to do it in every instance.

The disembarking rules are clear: Models who disembark from a vehicle may not assault.

Where exactly do the fleet rules say anything about allowing a model that disembarked to assault?

They don't, they only allow models to ignore the assault restriction imposed by the run rule.


It seems as though you want this rule to say one thing so badly that you'll choose to ignore both what the rules actually say and the overwhelming majority of people who have responded in this poll.

josh_hammer wrote:Actually I've asked this of GW my self in diffrent context
such as Deamonettes assualting after deepstriking and was told that the fleet rules do mean they can assault.
It kinda makes since seing how chaos _ generic deamons do it. also it seems alot of the objections seem based upon the rules that are puled from 4th ed
I would like to point out how radical some of the other changes have been. Also I was always under the impression That special abilities could overide standard /core rulebook rules.

Of course codex special rules override rulebook rules. But the CSM codex specifically allows Daemons to assault after deep striking. The fleet rule does not allow units to assault after disembarking.

It doesn't say that anywhere, anyhow in any shape or form. I don't even really understand why anyone would even think you could do so to be perfectly honest with you.

So seeing how im wrong then who are we supposed to ask about a rules question ? There's contact info to get official rulings so we contact them but ??? They are'nt official enough ??
/apologoze for horrid spelling

It really depends on what you want that answer for.

If you're asking because a particular rule doesn't make any sense, and you want somebody else's input, then emailing GW is fine. It won't necessarily give you the right answer, but it'll give you something to work with.

The problem is simply that the people at GW who answer the questions aren't the people who write the rules, so any answer given by them is going to be seen by many players as no more official than just asking the guy playing at the next table.

The Devs used to occasionally respond to questions on the GW message boards, but that obviously isn't an option any more.

So, put simply: There is no way of getting official rules answer, short of waiting for an FAQ and hoping your issue is covered.

josh_hammer wrote:So seing how im wrong then who are we supposed to ask about a rules question ? theres cantact info to get official rulings so we contact them but ??? They are'nt official enough ??

Look at Games Workshop's own flow chart for solving rules issues.

Calling a customer service representative is something they recommend doing only after you ask your local mates at the store. In other words, it's a last resort and most certainly isn't anything to write home (or onto the internet) about.

Games Workshop doesn't currently have any official avenue for submitting questions to them as their flowchart shows.

Your best bet if your question isn't answered on any current FAQ is to snail mail a letter to England or just come onto the internet and check to see if your argument has any merit.


In this particular case, no one has yet to show any logical argument as to why fleet would allow to ignore the assault restriction imposed by disembarking.

In other words, there is *no* argument. Why would GW even answer a question that is already answered in the rules?

So how long until this is figured, and how do you figure it when it comes up ?

josh_hammer wrote:So how long until this is figured, and how do you figure it when it comes up ?

I would check when (and if) a 5th edition rulebook FAQ is released. If you check online forums regularly you should see news of when that occurs.

Until then ask yourself this:

Why is this even a question?


The disembarking rules do not allow models to assault on the same turn they disembark.

The fleet rules do not say *anything* about allowing models to assault after disembarking from a vehicle.

So why would you or anyone think that fleet allows models to assault after disembarking from a vehicle?