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Because the rules say you can assault after you run...
Also the (official Gw contact) says you can

You can assault after you run, yes.
But you can't assault after you disembark.

In order to be able to assault, you need to satisfy all of the conditions. If one rule allows you to assault, but another rule forbids it, the you're not going to be able to assault without breaking one of those rules.

This may have changed in 5th but I 4th as long as the vehicle did not move during the movement phase or has not moved YET you can get out and move, shoot/fleet assault as normal. If it moved however then you cannot unless it is open topped. I dont know about 5th edition though. I am not that familiar with the rules yet.

josh_hammer wrote:Because the rules say you can assault after you run...
Also the (official Gw contact) says you can

That is a logical fallacy. The only thing the fleet rule allows a model to do is to ignore the assault restriction that is imposed by running.

Or are you honestly trying to imply that there is no way a rule can possibly stop a unit from assaulting as long as they have the fleet rule and are can also run? Suddenly that gives the unit the green light to ignore all other assault restrictions?

That's utterly ludicrous.


Say a state has three restrictions that prohibit people from entering buildings: That you must wear shoes, a shirt and pants before entering a building.

Say you get some sort of exemption that allows you to enter buildings without wearing shoes.

Does that exemption suddenly mean you don't need to wear pants and a shirt?

Of course not. An exemption from one restriction is just that: an exemption from that particular restriction.

All other restrictions are still in place unless otherwise stated.

smart_alex wrote:This may have changed in 5th but I 4th as long as the vehicle did not move during the movement phase or has not moved YET you can get out and move, shoot/fleet assault as normal. If it moved however then you cannot unless it is open topped. I dont know about 5th edition though. I am not that familiar with the rules yet.

Alex, read the OP.

The question in this case is if the vehicle moves first.

If you can shoot after you disembark, you can opt to run instead....

You can fleet after you run (which allows you to assault after you run, specifically stated in the rulebook, I do not have it avl at this time so I can not give pg number but I believe it's page 16)

Therefore, you can disembark, choose to run, use fleet in order to assault.

Prove to me with rules, and page numbers please, of where it specifically says I can't.

For example, on the rule for deepstrike, page 96, it actually makes a point in saying you can not assault even using fleet.

smart_alex wrote:This may have changed in 5th but I 4th as long as the vehicle did not move during the movement phase or has not moved YET you can get out and move, shoot/fleet assault as normal. If it moved however then you cannot unless it is open topped. I dont know about 5th edition though. I am not that familiar with the rules yet.

The discussion at hand is specifically about a vehicle that has moved.

Astalado wrote:You can fleet after you run (which allows you to assault after you run,

...but does not specifically over-ride any other restriction.

Prove to me with rules, and page numbers please, of where it specifically says I can't.

You've already been given this information.

The rules for disembarking prohibit assaulting if the vehicle has moved.
The rules for Fleet allow assaulting after running but do not reference any other restriction.

So, the restriction from assaulting after running is removed if you fleet.
The restriction from assaulting after disembarking, however, is still in place.

Fleet says you can assault. Disembarking says you can't.

And so you can't.

A quick follow through of the rules on assaulting.
units are not allowed to assault if they.
.are already locked in close combat
.they ran in the shooting phase
.they have gone to ground
.theys hot rapidfire weaponry
.they are falling back

page 33

Astalado wrote:If you can shoot after you disembark, you can opt to run instead....

You can fleet after you run (which allows you to assault after you run, specifically stated in the rulebook, I do not have it avl at this time so I can not give pg number but I believe it's page 16)

Therefore, you can disembark, choose to run, use fleet in order to assault.

Prove to me with rules, and page numbers please, of where it specifically says I can't.

For example, on the rule for deepstrike, page 96, it actually makes a point in saying you can not assault even using fleet.

You posted it yourself previously (Pg. 67):

“If the vehicle has already moved (including pivoting on the spot), the passengers may disembark but not move any further in that Movement phase. Once the models have disembarked, the vehicle may not move any further (including pivoting on the spot). After Disembarking, these models may shoot, (counting as movement), but not assault.”


The disembarking rules (quoted above) do not allow models to assault after disembarking.

The fleet rules in no way address this rule.

The conclusion is that models with fleet may not assault on the turn they disembark from a (closed-topped) vehicle that has already moved unless they have a specific rule which says they may assault when disembarking from a (closed-topped) vehicle.


You have yet to create a logical argument defending your point. If you do not understand what I mean when I refer to a logical argument I suggest you try reading this article:

http://www.dakkadakka.com/wiki/en/How_to_Have_an_Intelligent_Rules_Debate

josh_hammer wrote:A quick follow through of the rules on assaulting.
units are not allowed to assault if they.
.are already locked in close combat
.they ran in the shooting phase
.they have gone to ground
.theys hot rapidfire weaponry
.they are falling back

page 33

That is correct, and fleeting allows for assault after the run. Which would NORMALLY not be allowed. But is a special ability for the army in question.

This argument is rapidly becoming as silly as the Shoota Nob with Klaw... :(

just to put a small piece of the proper forum yakface gave us



Appendix A: Common Argument Mistakes
"In my experience, if you can not say what you mean, you can never mean what you say. The details are everything." - Centauri Minister of Intelligence Durano, Babylon 5




[Edit]Misquoting a Rule
Exact wording is important. If the exact wording of a rule doesn't support your premises or conclusion, it?s going to be pretty simple for the opposing side to refute.




[Edit]Forgetting That the Specific Overrules the General
The rules are written so that a more specific rule supercedes a general rule. If your argument fails to take more specific rules into account, then your argument is flawed.

i.e. the general rule states that units cannot regroup if below 50%. But space marines follow And They Shall Know No Fear, which allows them to regroup even when below 50%. That rule is more specific because it applies to a smaller group or more specific situation.

Wow, how did this make it to two pages?

It's really not worthy of this much discussion and people who are trying to claim fleeting allows assault from a closed transport that has moved are just after a loophole to exploit.

Now we are upto what? Claiming that Fleet overrides the core rule set because it applies to fewer models?

No that's rediculous, by the same token Fleet overrides the sentence in the deep strike rules that says that you can't assault even if you have the fleet special rule, because fleet can apparently override any sentence in the core rule book willy nilly. This isn't how it works, fleet overrides one thing and one thing only, the restriction on run that prevents assaulting NOTHING ELSE!

Seems like this is coming down to an argument between two basic viewpoints:

The rules don't (specifically) say you can't.

The rules don't (specifically) say you can.

I was originally on the fence on this one, didn't care much one way or the other, but it seems to me that 40k is not intended to be a permissive rules set. For example, I cannot decide that my units are able to burrow underneath the terrain and therefore escape line of sight. The rules don't say I can't do this, but they don't say I can. Therefore, it is more reasonable to think that I can't do this.

So since there is a rule that specifically states it (assaulting) cannot happen based off of a certain condition (disembarking), and the more specific rule in question (fleet) does not address the general rule specifically, you can't do it.

This is based on my assumption that 40k rules are not permissive, which may be a complete fallacy in and of itself.

hey OP, if youre not going to listen to the consensus here then why bother asking the question?
if you disembark you cant assault.

Actually there are rules for burrowing to escape los (going to ground)
but that is 100% off topic I believe this thread is rather moot until there is an official response (aka faq) on the official form since apparantly official gw rule helpers are'nt to be trusted??
/arg bit by bad spellign once again

usernamesareannoying wrote:hey OP, if youre not going to listen to the consensus here then why bother asking the question?

Given that he's just agreed with the concensus in the post before yours, and provided his reasoning as to why, I would think that asking the question was intended to garner other opinions so that he could make up his mind...

josh_hammer wrote: since apparantly official gw rule helpers are'nt to be trusted??

It's not that they aren't to be trusted. It's simply that they aren't any better equipped to provide actual official answers than any other gamer with a copy of the rulebook.

but doesnt it say to cantact them with rules questions in the core book. therefore making them a higher official source than the guy at the table next to you?

/added
Best argumet on either side is the one with the official email as far as I can see

josh_hammer wrote:Actually there are rules for burrowing to escape los (going to ground)
but that is 100% off topic I believe this thread is rather moot until there is an official response (aka faq) on the official form since apparantly official gw rule helpers are'nt to be trusted??
/arg bit by bad spellign once again

Christ, kid, how can you not get this? A unit may not assault if it (1) runs, or if it (2) disembarks from a closed-topped vehicle that has already moved that turn*. The rules say that a model with fleet may assault after running. Thus, it removes the first restriction but not the second. The rule for fleet says nothing about disembarking, so there is absolutely no reason to think that it affects this restriction in any way.

* There are other restrictions too, but they are not relevant for this topic.

usernamesareannoying wrote:hey OP, if youre not going to listen to the consensus here then why bother asking the question?
if you disembark you cant assault.

Hay d00d my splaling is turribel but I hab grate rading comprahenshun loloL

josh_hammer wrote:Actually there are rules for burrowing to escape los (going to ground)
but that is 100% off topic I believe this thread is rather moot until there is an official response (aka faq) on the official form since apparantly official gw rule helpers are'nt to be trusted??
/arg bit by bad spellign once again

I meant something more along the lines of physically placing my models underneath the battle mat so that they burrow along to your units safely out of line of sight like cartoon gophers. Rules don't say I can't! I think I've got enough feedback to form my opinion. Thanks to all the posters, both for and against.

I don't see this getting FAQed, it's just too stupid a question to fool with. It's obviously (to MOST of us) a really bad stretch of the rules.

josh_hammer wrote:but doesnt it say to cantact them with rules questions in the core book. therefore making them a higher official source than the guy at the table next to you?

Ok, here's the thing:

If you go to the Wizkids or Wizards of the Coast forums, they have people who have been vetted for their complete knowledge of the rules who are authorised to give official answers to rules questions.

If you contact Mongoose or Privateer with a rules query, you get a response from the guys who actually write the rules.

If you contact GW with a rules query, it goes to the mail order guys, who have been hired to process sales, and who give out rules information to appease the small number of people who don't realise that their question is simply being answered by someone who might have played the game once rather than someone with any sort of actual rules training or official recognition, and who have a long, long history of giving out contradictory or flat-out incorrect answers.

See the difference?

josh_hammer wrote:but doesnt it say to cantact them with rules questions in the core book. therefore making them a higher official source than the guy at the table next to you?

/added
Best argumet on either side is the one with the official email as far as I can see

LOL I happen to know several of the guys there in Glen Burnie. I went to highschool with the V.P. of North American Sales, and one of the guys manning the phones. Through them I've met with a couple of the other fellas in their dept. I can tell you that calling or emailing G.W. does NOT get you a ruling, it gets you a rule interperetation. I.E. the same thing you get right here on the forums. Heck often my friends there ask ME how rules work. (At least after they've been in print a while and I can glean the consensus from here and other places.) So, unless you can talk directly to the designers themselves anything you get from anywhere is as official as the Pan Fo. And I can tell you right now, the designers are NOT answering phones or email in Glen Burnie MD. The difference here at Dakka is, we like to read what the rules actually say and not what we want them to sayand therefor you can usually get the correct answer, official or not.

Astalado wrote:
Hello,

I will try to break this down as clearly as I can.



Models that disembark from a vehicle before it has moved may move, shoot and assault.

Models that disembark from a vehicle after it has moved may shoot, but cannot move or assault.

Models that disembark from an OPEN TOPPED vehicle after it has moved may shoot and assault, but not move.



In any of the above cases you can forgo shooting to run, but you will not be able to assault after running unless you have the fleet move. (this answers the original question, being that if you disembark a vehicle, you can then run, and assault after fleeting)

Wow,.... you are just reading stuff into the reps response that is just not there.

They have given you the three basic scenarios,.....

Models that disembark from a vehicle before it has moved may move, shoot and assault.

Models that disembark from a vehicle after it has moved may shoot, but cannot move or assault.

Models that disembark from an OPEN TOPPED vehicle after it has moved may shoot and assault, but not move.

that little one in the middle is the only one we are concerned with,.... and he clearly states that you cannot move or assault.

the fact that he includes this second bit:

In any of the above cases you can forgo shooting to run, but you will not be able to assault after running unless you have the fleet move. (this answers the original question, being that if you disembark a vehicle, you can then run, and assault after fleeting)

does not help your case at all. He even states that he is answering the question of can you run and assault after fleeting, which of course you can within the bounds of the the rules of disembarking.

Clearly you CAN run and then assault if you have fleet,... but NOT if you have disembarked a vehicle that has moved or even just pivoted. As many have stated in the thread, the two rules are independent of eachother.

Just give it up, no one will want to play a game with you if you insist on this type of rule manipulation.

This one's got silly. It's time to start whacking peope on the nose with rolled up newspapers.

Exactly! Hellfury! I'm calling you out! We're going to decide this matter once and for all! Virtual indian leg wrestling tournament at 10:00 Pacific time tonight! The winner gets to decide which ruling is correct!

I'll see you at 10 baby!


...unless I get drunk and forget. In which case we'll just assume that fleeting units can't use chem-inhalers.

josh_hammer wrote:A quick follow through of the rules on assaulting.
units are not allowed to assault if they.
.are already locked in close combat
.they ran in the shooting phase
.they have gone to ground
.theys hot rapidfire weaponry
.they are falling back

page 33

OKay Josh, lets look at a different example.

Lets say you are falling back. So the rules say you can't assault.
While falling back, you elect to Run. So the rules say you can't assault.
What if you have Fleet. Can you now Run and assault, eventhough you are still falling back?

I will hope that your answer is 'of course not'. Which will also make the disembark situation more obvious.

--------------


Now, I want to take a minute to defend Mr. Spencer. (The GW guy with the email)
Re-reading his email. I *don't* think he is saying what Astalado and Josh thinks he is saying.

He detailed the various rules for disembarking and moving/shooting/assaulting.

Then he referred to running, and that you can assault after running if you have fleet.

He did *not* say that assaulting after running was applicable in *all* situations. Just that it can be done. And it can be done... *if* the vehicle has not moved first.

It is hard to know for sure, but based on Spencers response, it sounds like the initial question was if a model could disembark, run, and assault. And of course the answer is yes.

Astalado, can you post what question you actually asked?

The Pan Fo will revile this OP.

Hopefully the OPr gave up already. But just for the record and in case the OP actually doesn't understand the logic here:

Astalado wrote:If you can shoot after you disembark, you can opt to run instead....

You can fleet after you run (which allows you to assault after you run, specifically stated in the rulebook, I do not have it avl at this time so I can not give pg number but I believe it's page 16)

Therefore, you can disembark, choose to run, use fleet in order to assault.

Here's a translation of the OP's argument above:

P1 Models can run after disembarking.
P2 Models with fleet can assault after running.
C Models with fleet can assault after disembarking.

This argument is an example of the fallacy of suppressed evidence. The premises are true and the conclusion is valid, but the argument only succeeds because it ignores one key premise:

P3: No model can assault after disembarking (unless the transport has not moved).

It's about how restrictive the rules are. The USR doesn't say "all models with fleet can always assault after fleeting." You can't assume the "all" and "always" conditions when they aren't explicitly stated.

So the real argument goes like this:
P1 Models can run after disembarking.
P2 Models with fleet can assault after running.
P3 No model can assault after disembarking.
C Models with fleet can assault after running, unless they have disembarked.

Also for the record, this argument is not based on 4th edition assumptions. This is purely from the 5th edition rulebook.

Astalado wrote:
Prove to me with rules, and page numbers please, of where it specifically says I can't.

That would be on page 67 where it says "After disembarking these units may shoot, but may not assault."

Astalado wrote:
For example, on the rule for deepstrike, page 96, it actually makes a point in saying you can not assault even using fleet.

And again our old friend the argument from ignorance. You can't argue a conclusion on the basis of a rule *not* being stated. Only stated rules count as evidence.