Quick LOS question

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**Lormax**

Had this come up over the weekend. War Walkers shooting at Tyranid Warriors. A unit of harlequins and a unit of genestealers are between the walkers and warriors. Everything was on the same "level" of the battlefield (nobody was raised up in a building, etc). My opponent claimed that since the war walker guns were so high that they could shoot over the 'quins and 'stealers so they wouldn't be giving the warriors a cover save. I countered that LOS had to be drawn through both of those squads thus I would get the cover save. If I remember correctly I think we finally agreed to a -1 on the cover save. Which would be the correct way?

**Stelek**

When you trace LOS, did any of it from head to toes of your model go through another model?

You don't just measure to someones head and say it's a clean shot, ya know.

Soon as ya do, I will mount all my guys laying down and put their guns on a tentpole.

**Lormax**

The line from Walker to Warrior definitely crossed models from other units.

**Drunkspleen**

As a war walker is a vehicle you draw line of sight from the weapon barrel to the target's body. I admittedly haven't seen a war walker in a while but I get the feeling their weapons are high enough that they could easily see warriors over harlies and genestealers. if the stealers were close enough to the warriors that they were covering up their lower body however, then they would still be entitled to the 4+ save.

**insaniak**

Yup, LOS from vehicles is traced along the weapon, to the target.

If your models are completely unobscured from that angle, they don't get a cover save... because there's no cover.

**Lord_Mortis**

Since everything is now TLOS, did you "eyeball" it?

If it looked like this, then they get a cover save, as you are firing through the gaps in the models.

If it looked like this, then no, they wouldn't get a cover save, as you are firing over both units.

**Darrian13**

Also, I would not count the harlies as cover unless you can make a successful VoT roll to see the unit. Invisibility works both ways.

**SlaveToDorkness**

Wow, now that is a great illustration, Mortis! Nice to see such efort put into an answer.

As stated it's true LOS so you check from the firer and see what is clear/obscured, if yo ucannot reach a concensus with your opponant it's -1 to the save. You guys did the right thing.

Ugh, I am not looking forward to playing 5th ed. ! We have a lot of cheesy bastards in our group...you know who you are! lol

**Lord_Mortis**

Nurgleboy77 wrote:Wow, now that is a great illustration, Mortis! Nice to see such efort put into an answer.

As stated it's true LOS so you check from the firer and see what is clear/obscured, if yo ucannot reach a concensus with your opponant it's -1 to the save. You guys did the right thing.

Ugh, I am not looking forward to playing 5th ed. ! We have a lot of cheesy bastards in our group...you know who you are! lol

We have cheesy people in the BnB Boyz? Say it aint so......

**SlaveToDorkness**

As I said, you know who you are...lol

**Lormax**

Thanks for the answers. I don't know if my opponent went for a models eye view. I know I personally did not, as I felt that since LOS was being traced through the units and the firer wasn't raised up, it wasn't an issue. I'll have to reread the vehicle shooting rules to be sure for next time. Thanks again guys.

**SlaveToDorkness**

One more thing:

I know from experience back in 2nd ed. that the LOS from the shooter is the best POV to go with, as the POV of the targets is sometimes harder to interpret. Any questions I ever had would usually be resolved by going around and looking from the firing model.

**Steelmage99**

LOS from the shooter is the only way to go. Never look from the target unit, it often yields a very different result and is pratically impossible to do.
Besides when told to check LOS we are told to do so from the shooter to the target anyway.

**grizgrin**

LOS isn't measured from "head to toe" of the firing model. It's measured from eyes of the firing model, or along the weapon in cases of vehicles firing. However, LOS is measured TO "head to toe" of the target. If any of that view is obscured or goes between elements of area terrain or models from another unit, 4+ cover.

I think the pictures above describe it well, and am just lending my keystrokes to it in support.

**biztheclown**

Nice pix Mortis.

**Lord_Mortis**

grizgrin wrote:I think the pictures above describe it well, and am just lending my keystrokes to it in support.

biztheclown wrote:Nice pix Mortis.

Thanks.

**Drunkspleen**

Darrian13 wrote:Also, I would not count the harlies as cover unless you can make a successful VoT roll to see the unit. Invisibility works both ways.

If you and your opponent are both happy with that then it's fine, but there's no RAW to support it, you are only meant to roll to spot the harlies when shooting at them, and they are still a unit infront of the target models.