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Ok, so over in a Tactics thread I brought up using IG Hardened Vets mounted in Chimeras by deploying them by "Outflank" move via their Infiltrate ability.

There is some disagreement about whether it is legal. One argument is that only the Scout ability can be applied to a dedicated transport, therefore only units with Scouts can use Outflank with a dedicated transport.

My argument is that units with Infiltrate can Outflank with a dedicated transport. I base this on RAW. To wit: "During deployment, players may declare that units with the ‘scout’ or ‘infiltrate’ special rules are attempting to outflank the enemy... Note that if such units are picked from their army list together with a dedicated transport, they may outflank with their transport, but if they do so they must move onto the table embarked in it." (Rulebook, pg 94).

Emphasis mine. IMO the condition that must be satisfied to Outflank is established in the first part of the rule. Namely, the unit must have the Scout or Infiltrate ability. Once that is satisfied, the unit can use the new ability, Outflank. The last part of the rule governs use of dedicated transports with Outflank (and not Infiltrate or Scout). It simply states that any unit that can Outflank, as established in the first part, can do so with a dedicated transport, but must do so embarked. Therefore, Infiltrators with a transport, can Outflank, QED.

Sorry to sound like an attorney (or at least one that isn't promising you millions for your fall), but sometimes it simply is the best way to present an argument.

ubermosher-They could Outflank with their Chimera if Hardened Veterans in a Chimera possessed Infiltrate. As noted in their listing in Codex: Imperial Guard, Hardened Veterans squads that purchase a Chimera do not possess the Infiltrate special rule. Stormtroopers and the Light Infantry doctrine have similiar, if differently worded restrictions. I spent a lot of time trying to figure out how to put Infiltrate + Meltaguns in a Chimera, but it is not possible in the current IG book.*

*As a qualifier, it may be possible using the Last Chancers. I have never been interested in running them, and am not as a familiar with the language in their rules.

Started thinking of units that could utilize this and only came up with 3:
Scorpions with exarch and shadowstalker can take a wave serpent, Tau pathfinders scout with a devilfish, and Chaos chosen can pick a rhino.

Did I miss any?

No that is currently the only units that would apply to. Also as Devil's advocate I'd point out this part of the 5ed rules:

"If a unit with this ability is deployed inside a transport
vehicle, it cannot infiltrate. Infiltrate also confers a
special outflank move to units of infiltrators that are
kept in reserve (see page 94)."

Can a unit that 'cannot infiltrate' because they are deployed inside a transport still be confered the special outflank move? That is the crux of the issue.

I wouldn't put up too much of a fuss if someone did outfank some embarked chosen but I am leaning more toward they can't outflank if embarked. That still allows the unit to outflank when not embarked and you can do something seperate with the transport.

This has been a long discussion on our club forum as well.
(http://www.ironfistleague.com/phpbb3/viewtopic.php?f=59&t=11158 if you care to look).

My answer is yes, it can still outflank. While a unit might lose the ability to Infiltrate, that does not mean taht it loses the Infiltrate USR. And possession of the USR is all that is required to gain the Outflank ability.

Friends,

Page 94 of BRB states you may outflank with "scout" or "infiltrators" with a dedicated transport. They must be embarked inside vehicle/transport while doing the outflank move.

don_mondo wrote:This has been a long discussion on our club forum as well.
(http://www.ironfistleague.com/phpbb3/viewtopic.php?f=59&t=11158 if you care to look).

My answer is yes, it can still outflank. While a unit might lose the ability to Infiltrate, that does not mean taht it loses the Infiltrate USR. And possession of the USR is all that is required to gain the Outflank ability.

I'm with the don

Don Mondo is correct: the unit cannot infiltrate, but it still has the Infiltrate rule. The inability to perform an action does not remove the capacity to perform similar actions.

Think of it this way: A unit has the "I-rule". This rule allows the unit to perform the "I-action" and the "U-action". If the unit has the I-rule and is not permitted to perform the I-action, it can still perform the U-action.

Bear with me, I'm still playing Devil' advocate (incase this comes up while judging a 5ed tournament this weekend).

Think of it this way: A unit has the "I-rule". This rule allows the unit to perform the "I-action" and the "U-action". If the unit has the I-rule and is not permitted to perform the I-action, it can still perform the U-action.

How can you be sure the I-action is what is not being permitted? It could be the I-rule. You are making an assumption that 'cannot infiltrate' is talking about an action seperate from the rule itself. The I-action is never stated as being 'infiltrate' as opposed to 'Infiltrate USR'.

And possession of the USR is all that is required to gain the Outflank ability.

That is an assumption not supported by the text. All we know is that infiltrate confers the ability to outflank and units embarked in a transport may not infiltrate.

Basically, we do not know for sure from the text what is being disallowed by being embarked. The only thing noted as 'infiltrate' anywhere in the rulebook is the entire USR itself. That is why I lean more toward the opposite conclusion to you guys (but I addmitidly wouldn't keep someone from outflanking absed on that alone).

Would I be surprised if an FAQ comes out saying they can outflank? No not at all. Doesn't mean that it is currently supported by the text.

Winterman,

Wouldn't the "no infiltrating in vehicles rule" be there to keep a player from deploying say space marine scouts in a land raider and then infiltrating the Land Raider? Or the same with falcons and scorpions?

As quoted above it would appear the outflank rules make an exception for dedicated transports to the original rule.

While the Outflank rules does indeed state such units may use a dedicated transport to outflank -- the Scout rule specifically states the Scout rule is confered to the dedicated transport if the unit is embarked in it. The infiltrate rule does not have such a caveat and its text points to the unit losing the abilities granted by the USR.

yes, you can outflank.
putting them in the chimera simply prevents you from taking advantage of being able to infiltrate but it doesnt take away the fact that you have it. anyone with infiltrate can outflank. you are making a special move, not infiltrating, they aqre two different things.

I need to change my answer sorry:

Per page 94 bottom of right hand colum, last sentance

...if such units are picked form thier army list together with a dedicated transport, they may outflank with their transport but if they do so they must move onto the table embarked in it.

End of discussion.

winterman:

It's easy: Infiltrate is a noun, infiltrate is a verb.

Rules have been quoted, no poll needed.

Neat to note 25% of respondants are under an incorrect rules assumptions.

banik:

It's certainly interesting from a design perspective, though also sort of encouraging that only 25% got it wrong: sometimes that number is higher.

winterman wrote:

Basically, we do not know for sure from the text what is being disallowed by being embarked.

Actually, Winterman, we do know because it can be derived in a sound deductive argument from the rules as written.

P1 "If a unit with this [infiltrate] ability is deployed inside a transport vehicle, it cannot infiltrate." (p 75)
P2 "If such units [with infiltrate ability] are picked from their army list together with a dedicated transport, they may outflank with their transport." (p 94)

C: Units with infiltrate ability in dedicated transports that cannot infiltrate may outflank with their transport.

The rules can't possibly iterate every particular situation that might come up, but they don't have to. There's a rule that says infantry move 6", and a rule that says space marine tactical squads are infantry, so you conclude that space marine tactical squads move 6" without the rules having to tell you exactly that thing. The interaction between rules creates a clear way to determine what they literally say without them having to explicitly allow every possible instance.

Pfft. I'm going to vote "NO" just to be contrary and bump the numbers up!

Flavius, clear and concise as always. What you have there is something I can use when explaining the issue later. Glad to see you posting again. Also like the verb vs noun argument Nurg. Appreciate you guys humoring me, consider me swayed.

Flavius Infernus wrote:

winterman wrote:

Basically, we do not know for sure from the text what is being disallowed by being embarked.

Actually, Winterman, we do know because it can be derived in a sound deductive argument from the rules as written.

P1 "If a unit with this [infiltrate] ability is deployed inside a transport vehicle, it cannot infiltrate." (p 75)
P2 "If such units [with infiltrate ability] are picked from their army list together with a dedicated transport, they may outflank with their transport." (p 94)

C: Units with infiltrate ability in dedicated transports that cannot infiltrate may outflank with their transport.

The rules can't possibly iterate every particular situation that might come up, but they don't have to. There's a rule that says infantry move 6", and a rule that says space marine tactical squads are infantry, so you conclude that space marine tactical squads move 6" without the rules having to tell you exactly that thing. The interaction between rules creates a clear way to determine what they literally say without them having to explicitly allow every possible instance.

word/