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when i first heard about TLOS i knew i was going to have problems with it.

i like what they did in LOTR. you can have your guys lay down to avoid being seen.

i think somehting like that is needed in 40k with crappy new TLOS.

you ought to be able to lay down and take advantage of small cover to avoid being shot at... but only able to move 3 inches or so while laying down.

have you played with the new 5th rules yet. you dont give any reasons for your dislike of the rules, you just state that you find them 'crappy'. play a few (more than one) games, come up with reasons, then restart this thread so we can have a proper debate and tell you how wrong you are in a concise and logical fashion.

also the new 'go to ground' rule is meant to simulate modles hiding in cover, and can even be represented by laying your models down, but having read the rules thoroughly before you posted your dislike on an internet forum, you new that already

I really like the new rules actully, i have already won 3 out of 4 games, and the line of sight is much better
and i really like the new cover saves,

Agreed and agreed.

True LOS settles a lot of disputes quickly, and if any come up, they're usually settled with a laser pointer real quick.

played a few games....

and yup, they still suck.

just try and hide a crisis suit now...


as far as the "go to ground" rule. yes i know it is ment for them to be taking atvantge of cover. but this means that they can not do ANYTHING in the next turn.

what that rule basicaly says is. "you cant lay down and shoot back at someone. in order to fire you weapon, you have to be standing, because making yourslef a smaller target while at the same time shooting would just be silly as no one has ever done that in the history of ever."


once i get my rules book and read and reread this section again and again. ill take a more solid position on it.

my hopes are high, but with the test games i have played im not to sure. there are a few things that bug the heck out of me.

1. the models arnt posable, if a crisis suit has an arm sticking out from behind a wall of a building he is in because of the way i have him modeled. he can get missile launcher of instant deathed.

2. if a fire warrior isent looking out a window of a building. he can not shoot. because he dose not have LOS out of the building.

i am praying that the rules are not like that, but then again its GW soooooooo.... say, what the number for privateer press again

so youve played some games, having not read the rules? thats a good start isnt it. boo-hoo that you cant hide your precious battle suits as easily now.

go to ground if meant to represent hiding from fire you you dont die. if someone is shooting at you with a heavy bolter your going to keep your head down so you dont get blown up by it. your not going to risk your neck trying to get a pot shot at someone somewhere.

if you have a missile launcher and you see your enemy's arm poking out from the side of a building you will shoot at it, you might not hit him because hes behind a building (a cover save), but you will try. similarly if you are standing behind a wall you wont be able to see your enemy to be able to shoot at them.

learn to place your models better. the new rules require you to pay attention to what you're going, rather than "i move behind this wood, you cant see through the trees." who knows you may even become a better player because of it.

Umm.... Envy, you need to put on the BigBoy (tm) pants for 5th ed.

Come on, if you can't hide your crisis suits, why don't you glue some rocks on a board and make some LOS blocking terrain? Problem solved.

Firewarriors can't see out of a building? Cut some windows in. Problem solved.

You'll have to do some problem solving to adapt to any changes, be they real or virtual. But at least *try* to find a solution before complaining.

Sorry if that sounds harsh, but really, 5th is here, it's not going anywhere, crying won't solve anything.

Good luck,

Rebuild your terrain set to include blocking terrain. It costs no points to do so, and it does the exact same thing as woods used to do. Hell, make a wall with a firing step so your coward suits can use that.

Also keep in mind this goes both ways. You can't hide your crisis suits but I also can't hide the 40 Space Marines with jump packs that are crossing the board to carve you up in hand to hand. I'll bet you're happy with TLOS when you see that army on the other side of the board.

Either way, this isn't 4th anymore. Learn to adjust. Considering the Tau have arguably one of the best tanks in the game right now, I wouldn't cry too loud or long.

Arms count Lormax

Had to double check, yur right, I'll edit my post.

You can't hide you Crisis suit because it's hard to hide something roughly 11 feet tall and 6 feet wide that's hovering whilst above the ground.

Unless you make a lot of LOS blocking terrain, which a reasonable thing to do, it will get seen.

At least it isn't a monstrous creature and doesn't have to hide 50% of itself to get the save!

Enjoy the new cinematic and realistic element of terrain only covering what is truly behind it. It is fun getting down to eye level with the models rather then "magic cylindering" hills n such.

Hope your experience becomes more positive in future Envy.

I really do think that woods should block line of sight. I mean, they are abstractions in modelling terms- really, the entire thing should be clogged with undergrowth, and the trees should be really densely packed. If it was meant to represent an orderly plantation, the current rules are fine. But for a dense jungle or forest? Nah, doesn't make much sense to me.

Then model a dense jungle or forest?

http://www.miniaturetree.com/viewproduct.asp

There ya go, 55 trees for $25.00

The problem with that is that it makes it very difficult to move miniatures around inside the forest. I'm thinking of houseruling that forests block LOS or bulding a perimeter of lichen around them to block LOS to anything smaller than a tyranid warrior.
I love the plastic citadel forests, because the removable trees and whatnot make it easy to move minis around, they were designed with gaming in mind. The new rules seem like a step backward in that respect.
That's my only big problem with the new LOS rules though.

I agree about the forests. Forests are really the one big issue in terms of TLOS, as a real densely-packed forest would pretty much just be impassible terrain in game terms. There'd be no way to have it block line of sight and still be able to move through it.

Our group has been toying with the idea of house-ruling LOS-blocking forests, but so far we've just been using them as normal. It's an odd adjustment to be able to shoot right through the forest bases that were totally blocking LOS a month ago, but as someone said, that's 5th edition. Perhaps this is to represent the fact that most of the weapons being fired here (particularly at things like tanks) could rip right through trees anyway.

Envy89 wrote:2. if a fire warrior isent looking out a window of a building. he can not shoot.

This applies to Ruins, but not Buildings.

The placement of models inside buildings is irrelevant. They're treated exactly the same as if they were in a Transport vehicle.

So the only people who like the new TLOS rules for 5th ed. are surly know-it-alls, eh? How could anybody not see that coming? In 4th edition, the rules actually represented that it was a unit-based game, but with all this line of sight and wound allocation nonsense, it's like they're moving it into skirmish game territory. So much for Apocalypse, I really don't want to sleep on the floor at my FLGS for three days to play a battle with toy soldiers. Oh, and before you say it, the reason I hasven't played a game in the new edition yet is because everyone who I might play a battle with is also too busy complaining.

warpcrafter wrote: In 4th edition, the rules actually represented that it was a unit-based game, but with all this line of sight and wound allocation nonsense, it's like they're moving it into skirmish game territory.

LOS in 4th edition worked almost exactly the same as it does now, except when area terrain and close combats were involved.

I'll agree that the new wound allocation is a step backwards, but the new LOS rules are much more streamlined than 4th editions poorly defined hybrid system.

insaniak wrote:LOS in 4th edition worked almost exactly the same as it does now, except when area terrain and close combats were involved.

ah... so you mean about 70 - 80% of the terrein on the table top.... yup being able to see though damn near everything isent a big change at all.

the LOS rule for 40k should be a size base system.. standar guys are size class 1, things like crisis suits and termies size class 2... ect ect and the same for terrein. we play tested a few games like this, and the game is MUCH more fluid

apone wrote:You can't hide you Crisis suit because it's hard to hide something roughly 11 feet tall and 6 feet wide that's hovering whilst above the ground

the trees outside my house are much taller then 11 feet. let alone the trees in a forest or even a lightly wooded area.

lormax wrote: You can't hide your crisis suits but I also can't hide the 40 Space Marines with jump packs that are crossing the board to carve you up in hand to hand

correction, i cant hide my suits form S8 missile of insant death (oooo i get a 4+ cover save great, now insted of a 100% chance of living because he was not shot at, i have a 50% chance) while your 40 jump packs are crossing the board laughing at my pulse rifle fire that is bouncing off of them.

the strength of the mech tau army is quility of shots, and being able to dance around people using cover to block LOS (this is the way i play them and i have allways done well at adepticon and other tournys). well, with new LOS rules, we can still dance. we just get shot to bits. and 40k has gone from a game of quility to a game of quanity in both shooting and model count.

regwon.... yes boo-hoo that i cant hide the best part of my army now... i dont care if that means i can see every thing now. the point is that they can see me, the suits are all about picking off stuff, while denying the enmany shots back by using terrein to jump behind.

Envy89 wrote:ah... so you mean about 70 - 80% of the terrein on the table top....

Your table, maybe. Not everyone used so much area terrain. I have around 4 tables-worth of terrain. One of those tables is an urban board, which has mostly ruins. The rest is non-area terrain aside from 3 forest bases.

Most of the terrain I've seen in clubs or stores is likewise non-area terrain, with the odd forest base or ruin thrown in for a bit of colour.

we play tested a few games like this, and the game is MUCH more fluid

...but not the game GW wanted to make.

There are enough games out there that use a system similar to what you're suggesting to show that it does indeed work just fine. Using true LOS has always been an aesthetic choice for GW. They want players to get more involved with their models, which is achieved by getting players to see what their model sees.

Obviously, that's not for everyone, and a system like you're suggesting, or the 'magic cylinder' approach that many used last edition, is a nice alternative if that's what you're after.

well, with new LOS rules, we can still dance. we just get shot to bits.

Which generally means that you're simply not putting enough terrain on the board.

Seriously, try a few games with more terrain on the board, and more of it decent sized non-area terrain. It makes a huge difference.

SonsOfLoki wrote:I really like the new rules actully, i have already won 3 out of 4 games, and the line of sight is much better
and i really like the new cover saves,

While I like TLOS for the most part, the ubiquitous cover saves are excessive, and heavily favor guys with crappy armor saves where it often really shouldn't and gives no benefit to guys in better saves where it should, and I have found them to be handed out for too many things, where a BS modifier would be far more appropriate and equitable.

I wouldn't worry much about the Tau's problems with hiding a suit, its more so their craptastic troop choices and with killpoints why even bother with Piranhas or gundrones attached to devilfish.

Terrain for 5th has to drastically change for the better and that includes making buildings and taller hills and deep craters, etc. Currently 75% of the terrain on most boards are close to worthless and for vehicles and MCs might as well be open death fields.

My only real complaint about TLOS is you will see less creative modeling for show and more modeling for advantage (kneeling wraithlord comes to mind).

Envy89 wrote:
2. if a fire warrior isent looking out a window of a building. he can not shoot. because he dose not have LOS out of the building.

I fail to see the problem. Is it that you think some models should be able to shoot through walls? When has anyone ever been able to fire with an entire unit because three models can draw a line? THOSE THREE MODELS GET TO SHOOT. LOS isn't taken from the centre of a troop unit and never has been.

Also, I believe GW deliberately avoided classifying things by size like they did with terrain in 4th. It's ambiguous and silly.

Next you're going to complain because you have to roll a d6" for charge range to assault troops in cover.

thehod wrote:My only real complaint about TLOS is you will see less creative modeling for show and more modeling for advantage (kneeling wraithlord comes to mind).

This hasn't been the case for the last 4 editions, so I don't see any reason it will suddenly change now.

The apocryphal Kneeling Wraithlord has been bandied about since 2nd edition. It very rarely makes an actual appearance on the table.

TLOS is awesome. I absolutely hated the stupid area classing of 4th edition. Many a dispute rose out of it. TLOS is simple, easy and quick.

Also stop complaining about hiding big models, you shouldn’t be able to hide a crisis suit or a monolith, it doesn’t make sense.

who needs this TLOS junk?
i collect tau so im happy with marking something then hitting it with seeker or smart milliles

Here's your solution to your TLOS woes. Now, can we please move on?

gazzdag wrote: Also stop complaining about hiding big models, you shouldn’t be able to hide a crisis suit or a monolith, it doesn’t make sense

wow, are you honestly tyring to compare a crisis suit to a monolith in size???



the idea of shelving up most all of my terrein just so i can build some new stuff sounds like it would be about as fun as beating a wookie in a game of chess.....


about the time i saw the dakka dakka artical on how to dip nids, i also saw the new rule book and had a few long conversations about it with gaming buds. then a few days later i saw some boxes of nids in my house. we shall see how i feal about TLOS and the 4+ cover save abound once i get the swarm diped.

hear is my solution to TLOS



and



not not my models, just pics i found

o and you cant forget blood bowl, necromunda, WHFB, SPACE HULK (hay look, i found a use for 5 or so terminators from my squated lysander wing)


... na, i am a GW crack head and will keep playing 40K... TLOS will just be my excus to give GW more of the money my goverment lets me keep