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Been holding off on this, because it was a pain in the buttocks to build, but here's the general army list for what I'm bringing to Vegas...

1750 Witch Hunters

Palatine, Book of St Lucius (BoSL), Bolter
5 Celestian Bodyguard, 2 MG
Immolator, TL-Hvy Flamer, Extra Armour, Smoke (all Immolators are equipped exactly like this one)

3x
5 Celestians, 2 MG in Immolator

2x
10 Battle Sisters, Hvy Flamer, MG, Vet w/ BoSL in Rhino w/ EA/Smoke

3x
5 Dominions, 2 Flamers (no Vet) in Immolator

3x
Hvy Support Immolator

For those of you keeping track at home - that's 10 Immolators (plus 10 meltaguns, 2 hvy flamers, & 6 flamers), oh and 2 Rhinos.

I realize that I could very well be screwed in KP missions, if they're included in the GT. All in all, it's the most fun I've had playing the game in a while... it really makes both sides think.

You are gonna kick and take names, bro. You know it.

Yay. Someone else likes Celestian Squads with meltas in an immolator besides myself

Looks like you will have alot of fun burning things but why only two scoring units and no Exorcists?

Have you tried putting a vet with a combi-melta in the celestian squad so you have 3 melta shots for when you really need them like when shooting a land raider?

This would be a tough list to play vs my GT list. ugg Just happy the standard ST comes with krak/frag.

So you have two whole units that can claim objectives, and you're packing everything in the army into AV11 vehicles.

Good luck.

Redbeard wrote:So you have two whole units that can claim objectives, and you're packing everything in the army into AV11 vehicles.

Really? Wow... I hadn't noticed that before!

Objective claiming isn't really necessary with this army. Sure, a Troop will grab one or two, but there are so many units to contest other objectives - without allowing room for the opponent to come contest mine. I've played 15 games with this list, and I'm 10-1-4 with it (the loss and 2 draws coming in the first 5 games while I was learning some of the unique factors of this army).

The biggest thing about this list is that it is a lot different from that which most people will have played. Yes, I'm in AV11. Yes, armies can bust AV11. But how much? And how quickly? Because I'll be on you by turn 2 usually.

stjohn70 wrote:I've played 15 games with this list, and I'm 10-1-4 with it (the loss and 2 draws coming in the first 5 games while I was learning some of the unique factors of this army).

Saying your record doesn't tell anyone anything about the quality of your opponents. I'm 100-0-0 against 14-year-olds, right. Telling me that you're 10-2 in your last thirteen games doesn't make me think that the list is wonderful, it makes me think you're playing opponents that aren't as good as you are, or at least opponents who have lists that don't challenge yours.

I concur, you'll rhino-rush, and overwhelm a lot of people's ability to handle tanks. But, all a smart opponent has to do is focus everything on your two sisters squads, and keep one guy alive, and the best you can hope for is a draw in 2/3rds of the games you play. And they're not even max-sized sisters squads.

Sisters are tough, I play sisters too. But, they're more of an anvil than a hammer. What do you do against a serpent-storm style list that ignores your drive-by flamers and outraces your meltaguns, while picking off your transports at range? Heck, what do you do against nidzilla? Even with a re-roll on your twin-linked flamer, you're only putting one wound on a carnifex half-the-time and it gets a save. Do you really want to drive your immolators within range of a dakkafex who, odds have it, will put 6 S6 shots on you before charging?

I think your sheer number of KP and your low scoring count might hurt you. Granted KP probably won't be a big issue since everyone hates them so much (although they are intended to stop situations JUST LIKE THIS).

Watch out for people able to assault your vehicles. A nidzilla list could probably tear through your transports fairly quickly.

I concur, you'll rhino-rush, and overwhelm a lot of people's ability to handle tanks. But, all a smart opponent has to do is focus everything on your two sisters squads, and keep one guy alive, and the best you can hope for is a draw in 2/3rds of the games you play. And they're not even max-sized sisters squads.

Even if he loses his troop squads, he can still win the game by a tabling. Tabling your opponent trumps mission objectives in the rulebook.

Capt K

Sigh. A serpent-storm list that outraces meltaguns.

Explain how they do this.

Serpent goes 24". Are they going to go 12" with star cannons? Guess they aren't shooting. Nobody inside those transports can get out or do anything either.

So no shooting, are they ramming? Then no star engines.

Finally, these vehicles move 12". The troops get out 3". Meltaguns have a 12" range. 3+ to hit, 4+ to inflict damage.
It's an AP1 weapon, so you aren't safe.

Please play 5E before making 4E comments in a 5E mission system. You won't sound like a new player.

@ Mack

Nidzilla has a fun time getting those 6 to hit and preferred enemy does nothing to change that.

Aside from the other comments, I'd take 3x Exorcists over 3x Immolators in the heavy support, they are much more useful, and you have a bunch of immolators already.

Since you'll be driving around alot, your book of St. Lucius doesn't really do much since it'll probably only be in range of the celestian bodyguard. I'd drop it to save points, and give the palatine the Brazier of Holy Fire, isn't that the one that acts like a flamer? Or a combi-flamer.

I'd also swap the flamers in the Dominion squad for melta's, and give the troops squads flamers instead of meltaguns, to go with the heavy flamers you already have. Mixing special weapons in a squad usually doesn't work, because when you're melta'ing something, your 8 other bolters and Heavy Flamer are doing nothing.

If you play against a tank heavy list, I think you're going to have some problems with only 4x melta's, hence why I suggested Exorcists.

whitedragon wrote:I'd also swap the flamers in the Dominion squad for melta's, and give the troops squads flamers instead of meltaguns, to go with the heavy flamers you already have. Mixing special weapons in a squad usually doesn't work, because when you're melta'ing something, your 8 other bolters and Heavy Flamer are doing nothing.

Actually I keep telling him to make it both Meltas...

whitedragon wrote:If you play against a tank heavy list, I think you're going to have some problems with only 4x melta's, hence why I suggested Exorcists.

Uhh....

stjohn70 wrote:For those of you keeping track at home - that's .... 10 meltaguns.

Right.

I missed the 3x celestian squads, I only read it as 1. Still not very many, and alot of sisters that have to get close in to get the job done, and expose themselves to danger. I'd drop them, and add in 2 more troops sisters with flamers in Rhinos.

Conversely, can you have allied fast attack? It may be fun to have 3 allied guard Hellhounds if you really want the flamey goodness theme.

Stelek wrote:Sigh. A serpent-storm list that outraces meltaguns.

Explain how they do this.

Ok, I've got 4 serpents with twin-linked scatter lasers and two with brightlances (at least). So, my range is 36" across the board, while yours is limited to 27 - which requires you dismounting. I can hold all my units in reserve, coming in on turn 2 (autarchs), taking up positions further away than where you ended up after your moves, and firing at you first (obviously targetting the meltagun-carrying tanks first).

Or, depending where you got to, I can come in with the star engines, and buy myself plenty of distance from most of your threats. If you bunch up, I go where you're not. If you spread out, I focus my fire on the closer and let the further-away units wait. Furthermore, at least two of my skimmers, carrying the scorpion units, can come in on the edges, just to further confuse things.

Playing that sort of list, I'd be more than happy to lose a turn of firing to buy myself distance as you close (assuming I'm not actually killing any of your AV 11 tanks at any point) with the star engines, then take up shooting you at range again the following turn.

Also, don't forget that whatever terrain there is on the table is going to obstruct your movements, while I'm pretty much free to go where I want, and your tanks are also going to obstruct your own movements if you try to mass-up, whereas mine are largely free of that concern as well. You don't think star-engine skimmers can dance with rhinos?

Also, as an extra note, that big 27" move+disembark+shoot range you're talking about is only available to you every two turns. Once the girls are out of the bus, they either have to get back in and hope they can maintain range with only a 6" moving transport, or slog it on foot, also pretty much limited to a 6" move. You better hope that you hit, and land a result on that turn, cause if you don't, you're sitting within 12" of a tank full of dudes that can probably take 6 celestians in an assault...

Please play 5E before making 4E comments in a 5E mission system. You won't sound like a new player.

Right when I thought you might be getting better, there you go with your condecension again.

So you have a sub-par serpent list, you apparently don't know how 5E actually works, you don't understand how Eldar work in 5E, you don't grasp Meltaguns kill Eldar vehicles without holo-fields (ok, with too), you somehow can magically get out of range by coming in on turn 2 (lolz), you mention how a Sister force can only fire every turn then expound on how awesome your own firing is (also, every other turn), and then you toss out the insult at the end.

Good lord, talk about gallows humor.

whitedragon wrote:I missed the 3x celestian squads, I only read it as 1. Still not very many, and alot of sisters that have to get close in to get the job done, and expose themselves to danger. I'd drop them, and add in 2 more troops sisters with flamers in Rhinos.

That's ok, mistakes are human.

Sisters always have to get close to get the job done, it's kind of the theme of all Sisters armies.

Besides giving 2 more troops choices and getting rid of 3 Immolators (also the theme of this army), what for?

whitedragon wrote:Conversely, can you have allied fast attack? It may be fun to have 3 allied guard Hellhounds if you really want the flamey goodness theme.

Only by taking some armored fist. Don't think you can get more than 2 Hellhounds though.

Btw, this list is a very tough nut to crack.

I think I can handle this with a few of my armies if I can roll well enough and kill the vehicles, but honestly it's terribly difficult trying to manhandle two armies.

Which is essentially what this is.

I see 3 fundamental issues:

1. Anti-monster. This list has no real way to destroy wraithlords, big fexes, beefy demon princes, etc. Flamers are weak vs. monsters, and melta guns are no plasma guns. Ordinarily, this wouldn't be an irreversible issue, but the list is feeble in CC, so you only get the one round before they start munching.

2. Anti-crazy character.

A lot of lists can put out a meteor of a character (Ork Warboss on Bike, crazy SM guy on bike/jump pack, lash sorcerer on bike, tau crisis suit commander w/FNP, etc.). It seems like these guys will be primarily unopposed, as your list lacks the instant killing goodness long range goodness of the lascannons/railguns that castle armies field.

3. poor anti-vehicle. Against a fellow mech list it seems to me like you would suffer. The classic chimera swarm has you by one armor point, and has far better anti-light tank weaponry, not to mention that it's backed up by far more powerful long range weapons for big tank busting. This is more of a concern than it used to be, as 5th makes mech lists very attractive.

On the other hand, you have some fairly extreme anti-horde going on, and the ever-popular Faith Points to hold up CC heavy armies. Seems like you've got a great anti-Ork list, and if they dominate to the degree that seems likely, you might take the tourney through sheer paper rock scissors matchup fu.

Much better critique, 40kenthusiast.

All valid points.

Can't fix any of them without bringing an entirely different army.

You do know Sisters don't get PG, and Sisters players don't like stormtroopers...

Character can only kill 1 thing at a time. There's...alot of things to kill. I ran Deceiver and Abaddon against this list. Didn't really help much, and they're top as far as characters go right now.

I don't know if many people have really cotton'd on to your 3rd point yet, at least not in time for the LVGT. Mech is very powerful indeed.

Matchup fu. lolz

How much faith does he really have, and how much does he want to burn to protect the dominions and celestians after they melta something? That's what I meant about getting close in to danger.

And some of the meteor characters are going to be flame-bait after they annihilate one squad, and then have nowhere to consolidate to and no IC status to protect them from shooting anymore. Monsters are a different story. A flyrant and Godzilla or two Flying Demon Princes, or a Demonzilla will really hurt. Even Elfzilla will be tough, and the Avatar is virtually invulnerable to your whole army.

Exorcists totally solve alot of problems that sisters have. The regular girls are awesome anti-horde, and 3x Exorcists are painful to alot of other things that can threaten them.

Stelek wrote:So you have a sub-par serpent list

Right, of course, only you can make great lists.

you apparently don't know how 5E actually works, you don't understand how Eldar work in 5E, you don't grasp Meltaguns kill Eldar vehicles without holo-fields (ok, with too),

Meltaguns at 12" range are no better at killing eldar vehicles than krak missiles. But, you're making arguments here that I can't respond to. You say, "you don't know how eldar work" - what response do you want, "yes I do?" You've provided no explaination that gives your statement here any credence. None at all. I could equally claim that you don't know how 5E really works. Other than your self-inflated sense of your own glory, you don't have any real credentials backing up your statements here. Either make a real point, or STFU.

you somehow can magically get out of range by coming in on turn 2

No, I can ensure that I have the initiative by coming in on turn 2. Regardless of who wins the roll for first turn, I not only get to position my units after seeing where yours are, but I also have the first opportunity to eliminate your options. You have four tanks that I'm really worried about, and two that I'm kind of worried about. I can ignore the rest of your army until those threats are removed. Knowing that I can end the first turn that I'm on the board anywhere along my 6-feet of deployment space and up to 36" into the table, where do you go on turn 1? Do you try to rush forward covering the entire table spreading your force out? Do you bunker in a castle, keeping your melta-gun tanks behind your other tanks?

No matter which option you pick, I get the first opportunity to react to what you did. If you spread out, I have the option to concentrate my entire force on whichever part of yours is most vulnerable while exposing myself the least. If you bunker, I can come in as far as possible from you and take potshots. Either way, I've got a huge advantage.

Now, each scatter laser I fire at you will score, on average, one result. Maybe a glance, maybe a penetrate. Immobilizing your meltagun tank is as good as killing it cause meltas on foot aren't a huge issue for rushing me. I've got 4 of those scatterlaser tanks, and you've got 4 tanks with dual meltaguns in them. The two brightlances will probably, between them, get me another penetration. All of those guns can fire at you from outside the range that you can strike back in one turn. Do you rush me with what's left, and risk me relocating? What do you do at this point?

But, go ahead and make more nebulous claims about me not knowing what I'm talking about. You know, avoid anything specific, and just say I don't know what I'm talking about.

Sigh.

Meltaguns kill tanks better than krak missiles. AP1.

You can deploy 36"? Really? Let's take a look at that and laugh together, shall we? You can come on 6 feet, but the Rhinos (spread out, as they should be) will deploy 12" in then move 12" up. So now you have a choice. You can move 23" then star engine 12" over, oh right...that's all you can do. Amazingly enough, you are now within range of everything. PLEASE star engine over, so they can shoot your rear armor. Wherever you go on turn 2, especially if you don't fire (lolololololol) there will be units in Rhinos that even if you blow the Rhinos up will be able to take shots at you. Btw if you zoom 24", star engine 12", and get shot by a meltagun, what are your odds of dying? 3+ on a penetrating hit? I love your plan!

And of course, all that 6' means nothing when you are stuck in Spearhead. Go ahead, zoom away. You won't surprise anyone with where you go, ya know.

In an objective mission, are you going to ram the horde of Rhino chassis off the objectives? Or just shoot them to death with your rather pathetic shooting? I mean 'pathetic' in the strictest sense of the word. Tri-oblits and Ork tri-lootas put out a hell of a lot more effective fire than your 12 scatter laser and 2 BL shots per turn, and they can't down this list. What, you gonna tell everyone that 12 S6 and 2 S8 shots is the uber? We can all laugh on that one together. Well, maybe not you.

Epic fail.

Stelek wrote:Only by taking some armored fist. Don't think you can get more than 2 Hellhounds though.

Sadly, while you can take allied Fast Attack, Hellhounds are not an option for WH or DH allies. Sentinels and RR's are the only FA options you can take from IG.

Mod mode on

Warning to all as I've already received one thread report on this
-Everyone lets keep it civil or the thread will terminated with extreme predjudice.

Mod mode off.

personal:
Your lack of exorcists makes babyjesus cry . You'll have to report back on how that works for you.

Death By Monkeys wrote:

Stelek wrote:Only by taking some armored fist. Don't think you can get more than 2 Hellhounds though.

Sadly, while you can take allied Fast Attack, Hellhounds are not an option for WH or DH allies. Sentinels and RR's are the only FA options you can take from IG.

Doh that's right.

Now I remember why Immolators were chosen. lol

Stelek wrote:
Meltaguns kill tanks better than krak missiles. AP1.

Ok, very slightly, whatever, it's largely irrelevant. I concede that yes, the meltagun at 12" is slightly better than the krak missile.

You can deploy 36"?

Yes, or 35, or whatever. The point that you're completely missing is that it's flexible. If the rhinos all spread out, then the skimmers come on all on one corner of the table and focus fire only on the rhinos/immolators with meltaguns in them on that side of the table. If you spread out, that's great, it means I can attack you bit-by-bit as the stuff you have on the other side of the table has to spend a few turns to get to me. You spreading out means I'm hitting half your army with all of mine. I think we know how that works out.

Tri-oblits and Ork tri-lootas put out a hell of a lot more effective fire than your 12 scatter laser and 2 BL shots per turn, and they can't down this list. What, you gonna tell everyone that 12 S6 and 2 S8 shots is the uber?

No, I'm going to tell you that lootas or obliterators play into the strength of the sister list. The lootas may well down 3 rhinos, but all 10 of the transports are dangerous to the lootas or obliterators. Downing three doesn't help them that much because, as you stated earlier, they'll be on you on turn 2. On the other hand, you have only four transports that are really dangerous to a wave serpent and only six that present a threat at all. If I drop three of them, that's half, and if you spread out, like you claim is correct, then the three I didn't drop probably don't threaten me in the following turn either.

I don't need to kill everything all at once, there are plenty of turns in the game, and dropping my infantry out to take care of your guys who lost their transports isn't out of the question either. The 5-man squads really don't scare anyone on-foot.

Still, the real point is, as 40kenthusiast also pointed out, this sister's list has a weakness against other mechanized lists. The eldar list is one example, his chimera example is another. The eldar list is about flexibility, not about one-tactic-all-the-time. Against some armies, doing a full-blown 36" charge off the line is the correct decision. Against others, like this list, it's all about reacting to your opponent. If you spread out across the whole board, the eldar use their superior mobility to isolate the most threatening targets first, refusing the other flank. If you insist on suggesting that your opponent employs stupid tactics then I'm not surprised that you win a lot. That doesn't give your argument any weight against opponent's who play intelligently.

No, what I'm trying to tell you is something you keep forgetting when you talk to me:

I know how an Eldar Mech army works.

I know how this army works.

You make it sound like all you have to do is move, and you win.

Since I've played against this army several times in 5E and you haven't, maybe I'm in a better place to tell you what works (from actual experience) than you are to tell me (from your hammer fu).

Ok?

Not saying anything about what Redbeard & Stelek are going on about.

Some points about this list:
Yes, there are no Exorcists. The idea behind this list is that there is nothing for you (as my opponent) to "target" that isn't just as important as the one right next to it... beyond the obvious choice of trying to take out my 2 Troops.

It's somewhat of an MSU approach to 40k.

Armies the list will struggle against:
Mech Eldar (more worried about falcons than serpents)
Mech IG (chimera spam)
6 Dev squad Marines (with ML's or better)
4 Large squads of Plague Marines

Not worried at all against:
Orks
Tau (can destroy a lot of my vehicles, but just not enough)
Other Chaos/Marines/Necrons
Pretty much any infantry army
Nidzilla

Yup, I'm not worried about Nidzilla. It's true that I can't kill MC's fast enough. I don't overly care. I can kill 1-ish per turn (2 if I'm lucky/good). That's not really the point. The point will be that by the end of turn 3, the bug player won't have a single gaunt or genestealer on the board. The MC's will then chew through a few small units, I'll kill a few of them... and then I'll be the only one able to claim objectives.

40kenthusiast wrote:
1. Anti-monster. This list has no real way to destroy wraithlords, big fexes, beefy demon princes, etc. Flamers are weak vs. monsters, and melta guns are no plasma guns. Ordinarily, this wouldn't be an irreversible issue, but the list is feeble in CC, so you only get the one round before they start munching.

The Eldar Avatar especially is going to be difficult to kill with no exorcists, since the meltaguns can't hurt him.

I like the list but it would be great if you could fit in at least one more rhino squad somehow. I think the lack of troops will become a serious concern. Also, I agree that the troops would probably be better served with double meltas. I suggest the following:

2x
Canoness, Book of St Lucius (BoSL), Bolter-Flamer
5 Celestian Bodyguard, 2 MG
Immolator, TL-Hvy Flamer, Extra Armour, Smoke (all Immolators are equipped exactly like this one)

3x
5 Celestians, 2 MG in Immolator

3x
10 Battle Sisters, 2 MG, Vet w/ BoSL in Rhino w/ EA/Smoke


3x
Hvy Support Immolator

While you go down to 8 Immolators, you now have 16 meltas, 3 troops and 12 faith points. I think you will be a little more durable like this.

I like both the list Stjohn has and yours Adept

They seem like really fun enjoyable lists.

Kudos to you both.

I think with creative generalship and a bit of luck you can make this list work against even the lists you've described as weak against.