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Putting together my first nid army. So far, I have about half the models I need.

I created this list based mostly on the ideas of Stelek's Modified Stealershock List.

However, I wanted to make a list that includes a wider range of models, including a gaunt screen.

Everything except the fexs and zoanthropes skuttle/infiltrate. Broodlord & Retinue will most likely outflank for the pee-your-pants factor.

CC Fex runs up the middle, spearheading the charge.

Zoanthropes run forward with synapse and start blasting tanks if they make actually make it to range alive.

--HQ--
Broodlord [feeder tendrils]: 73
+ Genestealers [acid maw] x10: 200

--Elites--
Warriors [deathspitter, lashwhip] x6: 162
Warriors [deathspitter, lashwhip] x6: 162
Carnifex [toxic miasma, talonsx2, +WS]: 113

--Troops--
Genestealers [feeder tendrils,skuttlers] x10: 200
Genestealers [feeder tendrils,skuttlers] x10: 200
Genestealers [feeder tendrils,skuttlers] x10: 200

Termagants [fleshborers, skuttlers] x20: 160
Termagants [fleshborers, skuttlers] x20: 160

--Heavy Support--
Carnifex [barbed strangler, t.l. deathspitters]: 120
Carnifex [barbed strangler, t.l. deathspitters]: 120

Zoanthrope [synapse + warp blast] x2: 130

2000 points
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Questions:

Is there enough stealers to be an decent stealer shock list? Too many gaunts?

Does giving every warrior a lashwhip count as tarpit-overkill?

Does the list blow? Why does it blow?

kultur2k8 wrote:Does giving every warrior a lashwhip count as tarpit-overkill?

I don't know of too many models you'd really benefit giving -6 attacks to, outside of Abaddon, the new SM version of Abaddon, Eldar Avatars, Demon Princes, and other TMCs. I'd generally stop at two, maybe three whips. With -2 attacks, things like orks and assault marines are very sad people, bringing down their only advantage in combat against 'nids: overwhelming number of attacks, especially on the charge/counter-charge. It's your call, but you might be better served replacing some of those whips with talons. This is, of course, without a codex in front of me, but I'm pretty sure you can give only two or three warriors the whips and the others the talons or rending claws if you prefer.

kultur2k8 wrote:
Broodlord [feeder tendrils]: 73
+ Genestealers [acid maw] x10: 200

I'd personally give the Broodlord Implant Attack over tendrils, and give my stealers the tendrils instead of acid maw. Acid maw is a very expensive upgrade at four times the cost of tendrils per model (I think. Again, no codex with me). By shaving off those points from acid maw, you might consider taking scything talons with the Lord's retinue. Talons + Tendrils is only one point more per model than Acid Maw alone, and you get many more chances to rend for the tradeoff. Five attacks on the charge from the Broodlord, four attacks on the charge from each genestealer, that's a nasty 45 attacks from this squad, all rerolling misses. I know it's cheaper to give the Broodlord the tendrils than it is to give every genestealer tendrils, but having a beast of an assault character dishing out double wounds against other people's multi-wound models is not something they expect, and it makes short work of MCs, ICs, and other tasty targets.

However, if you don't generally run into MCs or multi-wound ICs, then this is not an issue and you were fine with the tendrils being on the lord to save points. I'd still rather have talons instead of acid maw for the points on the genestealers. They do far more damage with more chances to rend and volume of non-rending attacks than they would with just rerolling wounds.

Kirbinator wrote: By shaving off those points from acid maw, you might consider taking scything talons with the Lord's retinue. Talons + Tendrils is only one point more per model than Acid Maw alone, and you get many more chances to rend for the tradeoff.

Now there's a thought. I also like the idea of making all my genestealers squid-faced.

Playing from experience, Acid Maw is awesome. You're going to see more and more resilient troops hit the field (plague marines, wraithguard, etc). Couple that with the tendrils from the broodlord and that is a very nasty combination. Really, I'd leave them as-is.

One thing I did with a scuttler list is bring a couple lictors. I was able to control when my scuttlers came in a bit. Yes, the lictor will have to take a dangerous terrain test when he shows up, though it's a 1-in-6 chance for taking a wound (has has 2!). Of course it's only an idea and definitely not game-breaking if you go with or without him.

Really though, I'd leave acid maw. You'll love it.

Lormax wrote:Playing from experience, Acid Maw is awesome. You're going to see more and more resilient troops hit the field (plague marines, wraithguard, etc). Couple that with the tendrils from the broodlord and that is a very nasty combination. Really, I'd leave them as-is.

It's true, tendrils from the lord coupled with acid maws for every stealer is a nasty combination. You get even more chances to rend as tendriled genestealers without talons. Let's pull up some quick mathhammer against T4, T5, and T6 (Marine, Plague, and Wraithguard/MC) to compare tendril+maw vs. tendril+talons. Obviously tendril+maw will always be better than tendrils alone, but we're comparing biomorph cost vs. efficiency.

We'll take your ten-man retinue for our example, basing it on attacks on the charge/counter-charge. TM: Tendrils/Maw, TT: Tendrils/Talons

T4
TM: 30 attacks, 26.6 hit (after rerolling), 20 wounds (again, after rerolls), 6.6 of them rend. 4.5 dead marines from the other 13.4 wounds. Not too shabby, 11.1 dead marines on the charge. Especially since the largest marine squad is 10 (except for Space Wolves newbie brigades). Instantly claim an objective someone thought a tactical/assault team could hold.

TT: 40 attacks, 35.6 hit (after rerolling), 17.8 wounds with no re-rolls, 5.93 rend. 3.95 dead marines from other wounds. Just shy of 8 dead marines. You'll get to stay in combat through their turn, but you'll suffer casualties.

I'm not going to bother with T5 and T6, as there will be a combination of more wounds and rends even more in favor of Tendril/Maw combination.

For my own sake, let's roll the numbers for attacks not on the charge.

20 attacks, 17.8 hit, 13.35 wound, 4.45 rend.
30 attacks, 26.7 hit, 13.35 wound, 4.45 rend.

Again, this is against T4. The difference would be even larger against T5 and T6.

Well, I stand corrected! Acid maw is indeed better for all T4+ applications (since stealers like to charge things). T3, the scything talons would probably pull ahead by the same margin acid maw pulls ahead on T4. I guess at this point ask yourself which you fight more: Marines and other Genestealers, or IG/SoB/Eldar/Tau? I know around here it's pretty darn Marine-heavy, so I'll be going with Lormax's suggestion and taking Acid Maw.

Giving up implant attacks on the Broodlord doesn't seem so bad now, and you save a fair amount of points.

Nice mathhammering Kirbinator, now I don't have to do it myself.

Putting in a lictor for pheromone trail is an interesting idea. Thing is, I really wasn't planning on putting any of the troops in reserve -- just the broodlord+stealers. Of course the option is always there, but I figured with a gaunt screen I wouldn't lose too many stealers.

Would outflanking troops be nastier?

kultur2k8 wrote:Putting in a lictor for pheromone trail is an interesting idea. Thing is, I really wasn't planning on putting any of the troops in reserve -- just the broodlord+stealers.

Unless I stand corrected, Broodlord does not give the unit Scout, only scuttler upgrades do. Even if you upgrade the retinue with it, since the Broodlord doesn't have it, the whole unit can't scout. Broodlord does, however, give them infiltrate. Though, personally I run with double Lictors in my 1500 list just because I think they're a ton of fun and they scare the heck out of my opponents. They make incredible supplementary force when assaulting in combination with the Broodlord and retinue.

I've yet to test out scuttler's at all, though. Having a 2/3 chance to come in at the table edge you want isn't too terrible, but this is assuming people crowd up near an edge. Otherwise, the turns spent in reserves could've been spent walking up the field in a strategic manner. Further, if you somehow fail to assault the turn they come in, anyone with half a brain will erase that squad from the board during their next shooting phase. These thoughts combined with the sheer point cost of the upgrade make me leery of it, but I will likely give it a playtest or three before I make any real decisions. It seems it would be totally useless against drop pod or mechanized armies, except when they crowd near an edge of course.

Kirbinator wrote:
Unless I stand corrected, Broodlord does not give the unit Scout, only scuttler upgrades do. Even if you upgrade the retinue with it, since the Broodlord doesn't have it, the whole unit can't scout. Broodlord does, however, give them infiltrate.

Right. Don't forget that units with infiltrate can outflank as well.

I'm thinking that the option of outflanking with more troops than just the lord might be best decided on an individual basis. I agree that it would be weaksauce against drop pod and mechanized lists, but then you don't have to actually use it that battle. In that case, skuttlers is still not a complete waste; The extra 6" move helps to get your units in cover or in deepstrike defense or w/e.

I'm wondering about what the best option is against a more balanced list. I originally planned to outflank with just the broodlord&retinue but maybe I should outflank with more...?

Warriors should be CC, or shooty. TL those weapons.

1 Zoanthrope does little. The elite fex is another solo. Bring another gunfex instead.

You might want a 'without number' spinegaunt unit to hold your own objective.

Termagants are crap. Replace them with something else. Rippers come to mind.

Stelek wrote:1 Zoanthrope does little. The elite fex is another solo. Bring another gunfex instead.

I actually have 2 zoanthropes... I guess I didn't make that very clear. Whoops.

I really want to keep an elite fex to hold the line, and I'd have to cut the zoanthropes for the heavy support slot. In hindsight I think a dakkafex would be better than CC, right?

Stelek wrote:Termagants are crap. Replace them with something else. Rippers come to mind.

I'm uncomfortable with rippers because they:
i. can't scuttle
ii. are vulnerable to templates
iii. can be insta-killed with synapse
iv. can only contest objectives

Why are termagants crap? I was thinking they would do better than spinegaunts against T4 units.