Forum adverts like this one are shown to any user who is not logged in. Join us by filling out a tiny 3 field form and you will get your own, free, dakka user account which gives a good range of benefits to you: No adverts like this in the forums anymore. Times and dates in your local timezone. Full tracking of what you have read so you can skip to your first unread post, easily see what has changed since you last logged in, and easily see what is new at a glance. Email notifications for threads you want to watch closely. Being a part of the oldest wargaming community on the net. If you are already a member then feel free to login now.

Doctrines
Chem Inhalers
Camo Cloak
Light Infantry
Priests
Hardened Fighters

Doctrines and Fluff Reasons
The Vostroyan regiments are extremely devote to the Imperium and the Emperor. Like the Russian Orthodox religion in support of the Soviet Union in 1941, the Vostroyans belief in the Emperor is so strong that they believe he will always protect them from harm and lead them to victory over those who don't accept Him. This belief is like a drug (Chem Inhalers) to all Vostroyans, so that they continue to push and fight even against all odds, and against all those who oppose the Emperor. The wargear of Vostroyans is ornate and extremely ceremonial and even out of battle is as an homage to the to the One True Emperor. It specifically allows them to circulate the pungent sacred incense through their ranks and across their bodies so that even as they spread his word through cleansing fire to alien worlds, they are always surrounded by His Word. At times the surroundings of the Vostroyan warriors is so thick with incense that it tricks and confuses their enemies (Camo Cloaks). The Vostroyans believe that even these instances are the direct result of the Emperor's influence and His actions.

During the heat of battle the Vostroyans would look to the actions and inspired words of the Archimandrite (Priests), driving them into a fervor, striking fear into their enemies that knew such emotions. The inspirational readings from the Archimandrites echoing throughout their ranks help to indoctrinate the Vostroyan warriors with such sound determination that they are able to throw themselves, (Hardened Fighters), into any tactical situation. This determination and sound martial skill has made them excellent and the Vostroyan Combined Arms approach allows their warriors the ability to quickly outflank or scout ahead of their enemies(Light Infantry) all the while hitting them with saturated heavy arms fire.

HQ
Command HQ - 7 Members
General-Poruchik Vladimir Golovko - 110pts
Chem Inhaler, Camo Cloak, Hardened Fighters
Power Weapon, Lasguns w/ bayonet (Laspistol+CCW)

Yevgeniy Archimandrite - 45pts
Power Weapon

Komissar Ivan - 60pts

Troops
Reiter Command I - 7 Members
Sotnik Borislav Khristich - 102pts
Chem Inhaler, Camo Cloak, Light, Hardened Fighter
Honorifica, Power Weapon, 2x Flamer, Lasguns w/ bayonet (Laspistol+CCW)

Sergei Archimandrite - 45pts
Power Weapon

Komissar Sasha - 60pts
Power Fist

Reiter Squad I - 10 Members - 105pts
Chem Inhaler, Camo Cloak, Light Infantry
Sniper Rifle, Plasma Gun

Reiter Squad II - 10 Members - 105pts
Chem Inhaler, Camo Cloak, Light Infantry
Sniper Rifle, Plasma Gun

Reiter Command II - 7 Members
Poruchik Vasily Vostokov - 80pts
Chem Inhaler, Camo Cloak, Hardened Fighters
Power Weapon, Lasguns w/ bayonet (Laspistol+CCW)

Viktor Archimandrite - 45pts
Power Weapon

Komissar Grigoriy - 45pts
Power Weapon

Reiter Squad III - 10 Members - 105pts
Chem Inhaler, Camo Cloak
Lascannon

Reiter Squad IV - 10 Members - 105pts
Chem Inhaler, Camo Cloak
Lascannon

Reiter Command III - 7 Members
Poruchik Nicolai Zhukovksy - 80pts
Chem Inhaler, Camo Cloak, Hardened Fighters
Power Weapon

Anatoliy Archimandrite - 45pts
Power Weapon

Komissar Kolya - 45pts
Power Weapon

Reiter Squad V - 10 Members - 105pts
Chem Inhaler, Camo Cloak, Light Infantry
Sniper Rifle, Plasma Gun

Reiter Squad VI - 10 Members - 105pts
Chem Inhaler, Camo Cloak, Light Infantry
Sniper Rifle, Plasma Gun

Heavy
Demolisher Slava - 165
Hull Lascannon

Demolisher Petr - 165
Hull Lascannon

1747 points total
90 Models
80 Troops
A whopping 16 Kill Points
4x Sniper Rifles
4x Plasma
4x Lascanon
2x Flamer
2x Demolisher Templates
10x Power weapons
2x Power Fists

On to the thoughts behind this list.
I wanted to put together a list that I felt represented Russia circa 1939 transposed into rhe 41st millenia.

I've spent a lot of ablative points on doctrines(300pts) and characters(400) to create a list normally propagated with lots of heavy weapons. I did this for a couple of different reasons:
1. Including the models listed I only have about 20 more vostroyan models of which are mostly grenade, flamer, heavy bolter, mortar models
2. Removing guards typical weakness, Leadership (no negative modifiers ever), Armor (3+ in cover), hand to hand (hardened fighters + priests) though the last has yet to be seen should make for an interesting and fun play style.
3. Sniper rifles - I have the models, they look great, and the rending rule made want to have them, coupled with light infantry i have a very tactically flexible army that is able to get into positions quickly and still have a moderate amount of anti infantry fire power.
4. Rather than hand out Kill points with my command squads I've tried to make them counter assault units that have the ability to sit back and go to ground with a 2+ cover save to keep LD 10 all around. When the enemy hits the front lines their are intended to charge forward with Rerollable power weapon/fist attacks at WS4&5. The new combat rules means that even if I lose combat... I will take an unmodified leadership test @ LD10. This should allow my units to not get wiped out as easily even in Hand to Hand.

The list has some serious flaws against armies that are stand and shoot. I simply don't have the fire power to push back, so i am hoping the improved cover saves coupled with the high leadership is enough for me to win a war of attrition. I'm relying fairly heavily on the demolishers for damage output and against Tau/Eldar they will be able to put a stop to that fairly quickly. 5th made armor 14 even nastier and I have always liked running the set up i have on the demolisher for moving anti tank and big blobs of troops.

The thought I have right now is to drop priests(kills my fluff), the power fists, and take COD to get I5 WS5 attackas with the command squads. Instead I would be able to add 2x meltas, 2 plasma guns, a hellhound, and a sentinel with lascannon.

Thoughts?

paidinfull wrote:Priests
Hardened Fighters

Doctrines and Fluff Reasons...

It doesn't matter what your reasons are as there is never a reason to take Hardened Fighters. It ranks up there with Cybernetic Enhancements for the 'worse Doctrine ever' award.

And Priests? A unit that doesn't fit with any unit it joins, and has to join units that don't want it first. Priests mightn't suck if not for the Advisors rule. But the rule is there, so they suck. End of story.


I'm all for fluff and theme - I've written thousands of words of background material for our campaigns - but Hardened Fighters is something you should not take.


I think I sum it up nicley in my Doctrine Tactica:

Hardened Fighters
Another completely useless Doctrine, Hardened Fighters is the best example of 'throwing points at a weakness so that it'll go away' I can think of.

One should always play towards their Guard army's strengths (shooting) and never try to make up for its weaknesses (HTH) by paying points for marginal increases in HTH ability. Lemme just find what I wrote about Hardened Fighters the other day at Dakka so I don't have to retype this.

'You're not giving them a chance by taking Hardened Fighters, you're just making the squad 15 points more expensive for not much gain. In order for the unit to have a chance it has to be able to swing before the unit is completely gutted. COD does that, giving them I4. It won't help against Aspect Warriors or Super-Gaunts, but against most Marines it's enough to give you 10 or 11 WS3 S3 I4 attacks whenever you get charged. And, most importantly, this ability doesn't cost you a single point.

Spending 15 points per squad to make yourself slightly harder to hit (remember HF doesn't improve your combat ability, it only slightly hampers theirs) is a bad idea.

Guard should not be fighting in HTH combat, and any points spent on improving your HTH ability is extra VPs your enemy can claim. Always remember, play to your armies strengths, not your weaknesses (that's your opponent's job). Don't spend points in a feeble attempt to plug up a weakness, spend those 15 points a squad on more guns (a strength). Yes you're going to get into HTH eventually, but your opponent is going to find it much harder to make back his points against 60 points + equipment squads than against 75 points + equipment squads.

HF is just making the squad 25% more expensive for no real gain. When your Guard fight in assault their aim is not to beat the enemy but to stall the enemy, either by allowing the rest of your troops to get away or giving you time to swarm an enemy unit with a few extra squads. Spending 15 points a squad for no real gain just means you have less warm bodies on the table, less ability to swarm, and each squad gives the enemy more VPs.

Also keep in mind that Guardsmen are expendable, and wars of attrition vs high-class (and low number) assault troops can often go your way. You should have 90+ of them on the table in a normal game (1500+ points) and losing 80% of them isn't a big deal if you complete your objectives. Points from Guard armies come from Command units and the bigger non-troop units, not from the infantry units. If his 180 point Marine squad kills a 85 point Guard squad, who really cares? He's still got to kill another 85-point Guard unit + another 5 points to break even! In the meantime you've charged 30 Guardsmen at his squad, netting you 20-21 attacks per squad (let's just say 60 total), at Initiative 4, giving you 3 and a bit Marines, 4 with what you killed the turn before, and that's 60 points you've killed - the cost of a full Guard squad before weapons - and you've only killed 4 of his models!

What's his remaining 6 or so Marines going to do against 30+ Guardsmen who are all swinging at the same time? Not much.

I'll say it again:

Play to your strengths, not your weaknesses. Your strength is shooting, so put your points into that. Don't try and make up for deficiencies in your army by throwing points at the problems. Pandering to your weaknesses in assault by giving up on more models and more guns just for a slight increase to WS is not to the way to deal with enemy assaulters.

Hardened Fighters is a complete waste of a Doctrine Point. It is one of the worst Doctrines in the Codex.

As I said, whatever your reasons for taking it, if they're fluff based then change your fluff. If they're game based, then whatever your opinion of HF is, it's wrong. Yes I'm being brutally blunt about this, but there's no other way to be when dealing with hopeless Doctrines like HF.

Do not take it. You army will be worse for it.

BYE

DISCLAIMER: Obviously the talk of Victory Points isn't as important in 5th Ed, but the rational is still sound - play to your strengths, not your weaknesses. HF is, and always will be a method of throwing points at a weakness in the pathetic hope that that weakness will simply 'go away'.

Thanks for the input mate.
B)
Just a heads up... the HF in the Command squad actually makes the commissars/Officers WS5, and i only took it on the command squads not on anything else. I just wanted to point that out as your comments seem based on the whole army taking it.

Do you have any comments about the list otherwise?

Don Mondo(another great IG player) and I play quite a bit, and everything you've said is exactly what his comments have been in the past.

I agree about the priests. I've used them to moderate success in a previous list but they would be much more powerful if you could just throw them in a conscript squad.

Based on your input HBMC
I made some slight changes to the list
I removed Chem Inhalers from the army and added Iron Discipline instead
A difference of 80 pts.

With the 80 pts I gave my HSO and JO + Honorifica Powerfists, giving my 4 PF total.
I know I know.
Stay away from the weakness of HTH.
So why do it? With 5th the IC can't be picked out. I am going to go after most armies anyways... so why not give the attacks that much more punch? If I charge, something that should happen quite a bit with the new consolidation rules, I get 7 WS5 rerollable S6 powerfist attacks. This is also good for assaulting vehicles as now attacks will be going against the rear. Sure it's no meltabomb, but against skimmers and transports it should be enough.

HSO - 151
ID, Cloak, HF
Power Fist, Vet Standard, 2x Melta
Priest - 45
Power Weapon
Commissar - 60
Powerfist

2x HWT - 90
Cloak
Heavy Bolter

JO - 155
ID, Light, Cloak, HF
Power Fist, Honorifica, 3x Melta
Priest - 45
Power Weapon
Commissar - 60
Power Fist

2x JO - 95
ID, Cloak, HF
Power Weapon, 3x Flamer

4x Squad - 95
Cloak, Light
Sniper, Plasma

2x Squad - 95
Cloak
Lascannon

2x Demolisher - 165
Lascannon


The list now has-
5 infiltrating squads

6x Flamers
5x Meltas
4x Snipers
4x Plasma
4x Lascannon
6x Heavy Bolters
2x Demo Templates

4x Powerfist
4x Powerweapons

Why is your CHQ in combat to begin with? He provides Leadership. That's all he does.

Spend more points on more guns. That's your strength.

BYE

Sorry, I'm not being very helpful. I actually have to make suggestions, not just criticise. I apologise.

Ok, now if I'm reading your formatting correctly, you have:

HSO + Priest etc.
JO w/Honorifica + Priest etc.
2 JO's w/Power Weapons?

If that's correct, these 24 models work out to be 496 points. 1 CHQ and 3 PHQ's should cost 288 points (assuming you give all three PHQ's 4 Flamers each). What that means is that you've got 208 points wasted on HTH upgrades, needless Doctrines, waste-of-space Advisors and Meltaguns (why are they there).

I think many players would love to take on a Guard army that's pumped a good third of his points into HTH units. It doesn't matter if you've got 7 re-rollable WS5 S6 power fist attacks. Who cares about power fist attacks in a Guard army? Guns are your strength. Spent the 208 points you've wasted on a few power fists on more guns.

I also notice that you've taken Light Infantry and given the squdas Sniper Rifles. Why? Sniper Rifles are pathetic weapons that need to be in batteries of 10 to make any difference.

So this is a Guard army, filled to the gills with upgrades, made even more expensive with the addition of Cameleoline, and then it goes and spends 500 points on HTH fighting units.

I'm sorry, this list is terrible.

But on the bright side, at least you didn't take any Voxes.

BYE

Captain Communism approves, fluffwise.

Hrmm i think its interesting.. throw some dice play a few proxy games and see where it takes you.

My fluffy list has evolved considerably including removing 2 techpriest because the codex is nerfed by only letting servitors and the techpriest utilize its signum instead of any squad he groups with...

Oh and the IC can be picked out both in CC and shooting by simply shooting you enough or engaging him in base to base.. and if he is not engaged in base to base he isn't fighting...

Thanks for the comments and input.
It's definitely not a traditional gun line and a lot of my choices were made from fluff.

odinsspear45
The HSO and JO while in a command squad in 5th Edition can not be picked out, the same i believe with the techpriest, i will have to check this though.

The FINAL List

Command
HSO - 149
ID, Cloak, HF
Powerfist, Vet Standard, 3x Flamer
Priest - 45
Power Weapon
Commissar - 60
Power fist

2x Heavy Bolter Squad - 90
Cloak

TROOPS
JO - 133
ID, Cloak, HF
Powerfist, Honorifica, 3x Flamers
Priest - 45
Power Weapon
Commissar - 60
Power Fist

4x Squad - 95
Cloak, Light
Sniper, Plasma

JO - 90
ID, Light, Cloak
Meltabomb, 2x Melta

2x Squad - 95
Cloak, Lascannon

ELITES
Hardened Vets - 90
Cloak
3x Melta, Meltabomb

HEAVY
2x Demolisher - 165
Lascannon