Forum adverts like this one are shown to any user who is not logged in. Join us by filling out a tiny 3 field form and you will get your own, free, dakka user account which gives a good range of benefits to you: No adverts like this in the forums anymore. Times and dates in your local timezone. Full tracking of what you have read so you can skip to your first unread post, easily see what has changed since you last logged in, and easily see what is new at a glance. Email notifications for threads you want to watch closely. Being a part of the oldest wargaming community on the net. If you are already a member then feel free to login now.

junior officer company banner 3x flamer
3x sentinels 3x multi-lasers

junior officer 4x meltas
infantry squad plasma gun autocannon
infantry squad plasma gun autocannon

junior officer 4x meltas
infantry squad plasma gun autocannon
infantry squad plasma gun autocannon

junior officer 4x meltas
infantry squad plasma gun autocannon
infantry squad plasma gun autocannon

hellhound rough terrain mod
hellhound rough terrain mod
hellhound rough terrain mod

leman russ heavy bolter
leman russ heavy bolter
leman russ heavy bolter

doctrines:
drop troops
close order drill

Pretty self explanatory strategy. Shoot things....

any thoughts?

thanks

How are you going to kill tanks without Lascannons? 3 units of dropping Meltas won't help you enough, and you'll lose their leadership ability.

What are the Sentinels for?

This army has anti-infantry firepower. All the Sentinels give you is an easy extra KP that your enemy can steal.

And you've only got 60 men. That's what I'd bring to a 1200 point game, let alone a 1750 game. It's not enough.

215 points is what you get back by dropping the 3rd Platoon HQ and the 4 Sentinels. Take away the 60 points you need to make those Autocannons into Lascannons and you have 155 left. Amazingly this gives you enough for two units of dropping H-Vets w/Meltas, and you have 5 points to spare.

Next you ditch the Flamers in the CHQ (they shouldn't be there), and you've got 23 points left over. Now we kill the 80 points worth of Meltaguns in the other PHQ's. Now you've got 103 points.

You need 15 of that to give your Officers Iron Discipline, and that fact that you didn't take that as your first Doctrine choice is actually an offence against the Emperor, punishable by death (just FYI).

Leaves you just enough points for another Infantry squad w/Lascannon. No plasma though. You'd have to drop the RTM's on the Hellhounds to get that.

BYE

Thanks for the reply....

Lascannons have been absolutely terrible in my many 5th edition games. I have to make sure we don't fall too much into theory when talking about what to shoot lascannons at. Single shot 25 point BS3 lascannons into armor 14, let alone armor 14 with a cover save, doesn't have the yield that their cost demands. Lets say there are 4 main armor 14 targets to consider. Leman Russ. The Leman Russ doesn't hurt me. I'll ignore them. Monolith. Monolith are a slight problem but they exist in an unpopular and almost unplayable army. Battlewagons will have 4+ cover without fail. Shooting 6-8 over-costed 'hail mary' shots into that has been unproductive for me. The land raider is an important target for me to kill, and I think my meltas will do fine at it.

Armor 13 is the sweet spot for lascannons. I won't deny the effectiveness of the lascannon against that armor value. There are really only 3 semi-serious threats to me. I see a tongue soul grinder, a tri-las predator and a hammerhead as the only armor 13 tanks that I would worry about. Not incredibly popular tanks, with the exception of the hammerhead, which has the 4+ cover save for all shots outside of 12". I'm not excited about putting expensive low density shots into that.

Once you get to armor 12, the math swings over to the autocannons. So we don't need to discuss that. The autocannons help in all other non-tank situations as well. A great match with the plasma gun for light vehicle kill.

I respect your opinion, and appreciate your position pertaining to lascannons, but my play experience has proven them (to me) to be a sub-par choice for infantry squads. And my 12 melta-guns will have to suffice for tank kill. It's been a frustration of mine, but a 5th edition adjustment I have made, and I am confident in.

The sentinels I'm a lot more open for discussion on. Currently I have been flank marching them to charge lootas who deploy near short edges. In many games they have been able to emerge and charge an entirely strength 3 unit. I play a lot of games against orks. I originally ran them with heavy flamers, but found that I rarely did any flaming with them. When I had the swarms/rangers/lootas in cover in range, I'd charge them, and ultimately run them down in combat.

However, the 'trick' is counterable, unpredictable, and more effective against opponents with lower play skill.

The sentinels are 'for' long range objective blocking, and long range shooting unit blocking. I assume side armor with strength 6 shots followed by str 5 attacks on rear armor could come up. But that opportunity has not presented itself.

The fact that I have 60 men doesn't seem to really affect my ability to score in loot and take and hold missions. I've got higher priority targets. Basic guardsmen are overcosted and low rate of fire high cost guns have been nerfed by our new edition.

The flamers on the command squad are shockingly good... Really? These three flamers have killed 12 orks in a salvo before. Orks charge infantry squad, infantry squad disappears, orks consolidate, get flamed. 18 points to kill 8 or 9 orks consistently after a consolidate.

Iron discipline is good, but i just didn't have the 5 points... I would never put it on a drop JO with 4 melta guns, because, I've just never seen them somehow not get totally wiped out by shooting or assault. This won't come up in shooting unless I fail a leadership 9 test... in close combat, I have to not get swept, get away, get further than 6" from them, then test to regroup? For the line squads I've got an unmodified leadership 8 with a re-roll. That seems to pass plenty in my play experience. If I write a list that comes up 5 short, I'll buy it for my flag officer.

I appreciate you taking the time to add your input, most of the "non-standard" guard choices I've made have come as decisions I've made after playing dozens of games of 5th. Lascannons have fallen flat big time against the killa kans and battle wagons under KFF and hammerheads with disruptor beacons I've faced. And infantry squad spam has gotten so much harder to deploy tactically without giving your targets cover saves, that I'll mitigate that with a low unit count until we get our 'platoon drill' at which point I'll go back to 120+ guardsmen, which is my first love. The existence of the sentinels has been suspect, and I'm open to removing or changing them to something else.

I hate the army list posts where the OP comes back and refutes all the help he has been given, sorry this turned into one of those.

You don't have to convince me of the worth of the Autocannon. I know full well just what a fantastic weapon it is. In light of that, I hadn't considered the fact that Lascannons cannot destroy on a glance any more, so they have to:

Hit on a 4+. Get past a 4+ save. Roll a 6. Then roll a 4+ again.

So that's 48 Lascannon shots to take out a single AV14 target in cover. It'll take 8 Lascannons 6 turns to do that.


Ok, not good. You're right. Lascannons don't work.



Ok, so, ditch the Sentinels to free up some points. As I said, this army has enough anti-infantry firepower, the Sentinels don't add anything.

Next, ditch one lot of 4 Meltas to gather together another 40 points. You now have 175 points.

150 for two units of H-Vets. 25 left. 10 points on Iron Discipline (CHQ + the PHQ without the Meltas. 15 points left. Drop the Flamers from the CHQ. 33 points left. 4 Flamers in the PHQ w/Iron Discipline. 9 points left. 3 sets of Smoke Launchers for the Hellhounds. 0 points left.

BYE

H.B.M.C. wrote:
Hit on a 4+. Get past a 4+ save. Roll a 6. Then roll a 4+ again.

Actually that's 4+ to hit, 6+ to penetrate, 4+ cover save, and 5+ to wreck/explode

Sushicaddy wrote:Actually that's 4+ to hit, 6+ to penetrate, 4+ cover save, and 5+ to wreck/explode

Ok, so even worse than I suspected.

12 Lascannons over 6 turns. Wow. GW really has turned vehicles back into bunkers rather than actual tanks. Why would you ever leave cover?

BYE

H.B.M.C. wrote:
Ok, so, ditch the Sentinels to free up some points. As I said, this army has enough anti-infantry firepower, the Sentinels don't add anything.

Next, ditch one lot of 4 Meltas to gather together another 40 points. You now have 175 points.

150 for two units of H-Vets. 25 left. 10 points on Iron Discipline (CHQ + the PHQ without the Meltas. 15 points left. Drop the Flamers from the CHQ. 33 points left. 4 Flamers in the PHQ w/Iron Discipline. 9 points left. 3 sets of Smoke Launchers for the Hellhounds. 0 points left.

BYE

now there's a thought... I don't know if I'll apply these changes point for point, but dropping those sentinels and moving things around for two veteran units with meltas sounds kinda fantastic... thanks!

Trust me on the Iron Discipline though. You need it, and you need a backup. The ability to regroup under 50% will be very useful when trying to hold objectives.

And it can't hurt to give your Hellhounds a 4+ save for a turn if they're out of range.

BYE

Why are hellhounds going into rough terrain? I'm confused, don't they want to start 12" in and move 6" then fire 24"? That's how they work best, before they get shot off the table anyway. For a cover save? They won't really save your hellhounds, everyone will kill them immediately anyway.

I never try to put my hounds in terrain. At least on my table at home there is terrain all over the place anyway. I always deploy them out 12" move 6" and fire on turn 1. But it seems like many times I end up having to drive that 6" in terrain, unlike the leman russes, if I get immobilized I can't reach anyone with my flamer, the '1' result is basically a weapon destroyed and immobilized result all rolled into one.

So to answer, they aren't going into terrain for a save, they are just going into terrain when necessary to get as close to the enemy lootas as possible, it just seems to always be in terrain, and I seem to always find at least one '1' for every set of three I roll.

I worked up a new version.... please take a look...

leman russ heavy bolter
leman russ heavy bolter
leman russ heavy bolter

hellhound
hellhound
hellhound

5x veterans with 3x meltas
5x veterans with 3x meltas
5x veterans with 3x meltas

junior officer with flag and 3x flamers

junior officer with 4x flamers
infantry squad with plasma gun and autocannons
infantry squad with plasma gun and autocannons
infantry squad with plasma gun and autocannons

junior officer with 4x flamers
infantry squad with plasma gun and autocannons
infantry squad with plasma gun and autocannons
infantry squad with plasma gun and autocannons

doctrines:
drop troops
veterans
close order drill
iron discipline

this list is 38 points short. Stelek, if you pop back over here, how would you spend those points? remnants with a special weapon, iron discipline and vehicle upgrades?

Thanks guys...

Hmmm I'd drop the plasmaguns and get some more firepower.

Probably drop 2 inf squads, the plasmaguns, and get some Sisters.

Sisters + IG = 5E win.

IG + no Sisters = 5E loss.

Assault armies like the fact you have 60 guys on the table, fyi. Gives them some meat to latch on to.

Remember, turn 2 assaults...not a rare thing anymore!

i love using sisters with IG- the power armour and bolters will ussually throw off an opponent expecting flack armoured lasguns.

Stelek wrote:

Assault armies like the fact you have 60 guys on the table, fyi. Gives them some meat to latch on to.

Remember, turn 2 assaults...not a rare thing anymore!

You are aware that you can no longer consolidate into close combat, right?

Back OT to the OP. I like the second list a bit better - I kinda like the multilaser sentinels flanking on - gives you rear / side armor shots probably without cover - if you can find a way to fit them in it might work out.

Of course you can't.

When 50 marines hit your lines, why do they need to consolidate into close combat?

YOU'RE DEAD!

And a single squad of sisters will stop that? Also, I am assuming that Shep isn't an idiot and will not deploy at the forward edge of his deployment zone. Who knows, he may even use a squad or two sacrificially.

Well no they won't stop it.

They can however sit in front of your army and block the assault, get annihilated, and allow you a 2nd round of effective shooting.

2 rounds of heavy fire from a gunline, really hurts marines bad.

1 round, not so much.

However if you have alot of extra guys (aka lascannon squads) you can sit those in front of your Sisters, and behind your Sisters is the rest of your army.

So they'll run or stay pretty much as you want them to...that's what the Sisters are for, really. The Sisters also execute small marine squads so very very well.

Shep isn't an idiot, but the math doesn't require idiot play.

12" Deploy. 12" move. D6" run. 12" move. 6" assault.

Where are you hiding, exactly? On the board edge, in a long line? Well, if he makes it to you--you're dead since you'll flee right off the board. Better to cushion it with some sacrificial squads.

I sacrifice my Sisters all the time in my DH army.

So you are talking assault marines? land raiders? I can't figure out where you get that 12" move each turn.

I really don't see how a bunch of girls w/power armour and bolters are going to significantly enhance the abilities of a Guard army.

Besides, Guard don't need anyone other than Guard to see them throgh. Everything else is just toys or gimmicks.

BYE

Sushicaddy wrote:

H.B.M.C. wrote:
Hit on a 4+. Get past a 4+ save. Roll a 6. Then roll a 4+ again.

Actually that's 4+ to hit, 6+ to penetrate, 4+ cover save, and 5+ to wreck/explode

oh god i feel sick... this makes me want to just convert all my lascannons into heavy bolters and be done with them all together i have fought three lith lists and the tau 4+ ignore your shots lists and have yet to do anything but immobilize a single one of them.. i am seriously thinking about reducing to HB and add in an extra 3 HB with the gravy points.

sorry for the hijack

I'm not sure how








is significantly worse than




If the Sisters die in one turn anyway, how much does it matter what unit you use to take the charge?

Somnicide wrote:So you are talking assault marines? land raiders? I can't figure out where you get that 12" move each turn.

Assault marines move 12"...so do LR but I was talking about Assault marines.

H.B.M.C. wrote:I really don't see how a bunch of girls w/power armour and bolters are going to significantly enhance the abilities of a Guard army.

Besides, Guard don't need anyone other than Guard to see them throgh. Everything else is just toys or gimmicks.

BYE

Guard don't come with 'stand in the open and have saves' units.

Guard cannot use terrain or even each other without either giving the enemy cover saves (bad) or eating templates (really bad).

Since 5E is moving all of you to running torrent of fire weapons, and not AP2 weapons...that means Sisters can sit in front of a guard army, and give the guard a nice cover save, while out in the open.

Sisters also allow you to tarpit the enemy by negating the LD modifiers for CC.

See the joy for yourself, I guess.

MarvinGayeIsMyDaddy wrote:I'm not sure how








is significantly worse than




If the Sisters die in one turn anyway, how much does it matter what unit you use to take the charge?

You can reverse the formation, to this:






During your turn, you can tarpit him with guardsmen who stay in CC on LD9 (no matter what).

Then during his turn, you turn off the prayer book and bam, you get to shoot him again.

Then, rinse and repeat as necessary.

A full Sisters squad is more durable in 5E (and is a troops unit that hurts!) than a Canoness.

Ok?

H.B.M.C. wrote:Ok, not good. You're right. Lascannons don't work.

You are shooting at a Land Raider, discounting glancing shots and only taking destroyed results.

Shep wrote:Once you get to armor 12, the math swings over to the autocannons. So we don't need to discuss that.

An equal number of Lascannons will still give you more bang at armour 12. They are 10 points more expensive but you only have so many squads. Unfortunately, the Melta Veterans seem to be the way to deal with any Armour. You could take Sharpshooter for them. Cameoline is also nice giving a 3+ save in cover.

Stelek wrote:Probably drop 2 inf squads, the plasmaguns, and get some Sisters.

How do you get a second detachment in 1750 points? Is this a special GT rule?

Stelek wrote:They can however sit in front of your army and block the assault, get annihilated, and allow you a 2nd round of effective shooting. ... Sisters also allow you to tarpit the enemy by negating the LD modifiers for CC.

A guard unit could do that also and would lose more reliably. Tarpit just means that they will die on the guard's turn and the Marines can assault again on their turn.

If you want the guard unit to assault the Marines, it would be moving up to 18 inches towards the enemy and the sisters would have to follow. No one would be in range for Rapid Fire.

MajorTreble wrote:You are shooting at a Land Raider, discounting glancing shots and only taking destroyed results.

Yes, because usually when one wants to discuss the probability of destroying a tank, using the destroyed results is the way to go about doing that, considering that all the other results aren't destroyed results. But thanks for pointing that out. I'll be sure to include 'stunned' results when I'm working out how many shot it takes to kill a vehicle in cover next time.

And there's more than one AV14 vehicle in this game.

BYE

Sisters can be taken as allies.

Guard lose more reliably? I guess people don't understand, so I'll post it in the tactics section.

MajorTreble wrote:
How do you get a second detachment in 1750 points? Is this a special GT rule?

The Witch Hunter's Codex allows you to take Witch Hunter units as allies to Space Marine and Imperial Guard armies. It also allows you to take Space Marine or Imperial Guard allies in a Witch Hunter army with certain restrictions. Demonhunter codex is the same way.

In fact it is legal to have Demonhunters, Witch Hunters, and Imperial Guard in the same army. My Witch Hunters army is currently doing this.

The reason Sister's can tarpit is because they can get 3+ invulnerable saves and take leadership tests with no negative modifiers.

Hey kadun can I see your list?

I'm probably doing the inverse of your list, but I'd like to see.

Post it separately, will you please?

Oh and I put the tactic I was thinking of, into the Article section:

http://www.dakkadakka.com/wiki/en/Tarpitting_with_Sisters_and_IG