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I need some suggestions for an IG Army that can handle both Orks and Plague Marines and the occasional renegade IG Army so far. I have not played 40k since the late 90s...so I missed most of 3rd edition, all of 4th edition and am only now getting back into it with the new 5th edition. The games I've seen our group play so far have been between 500 to 1500 points level armies, but most tend to fall in the 1000 point range. Although they have done a few very large scale Armegeddon style battles with plague towers, soul grinders, shock attack guns, battlewagons, gargants, killa kanz, baneblades, LRTs, chimeras, sentinels and everything under the sun for troops on a 4x8 board with one player playing orks vs one playing plague marines and one playing IG allied to the plague marine forces (the traitorous heretics!).

I need to put together a base army for IG that can handle the Orks and Nurgle players, and have no idea where to go with all the changes I am reading about. I have a good size Praetorian Guard Army that has the following models available for use......
95 generic lasgun troopers
13 meltagun troopers
10 flamer troopers
8 grenade launcher troopers
7 autocannon teams
9 heavy bolter teams
14 lascannon teams
12 mortar teams
8 missile launcher teams
3 PG sentinels (and 3 non PG sentinels, all 6 are the old school version of the model)
1 standard bearer
2 bugle players
7 officers (all with chainswords)
21 sergeants (9 with power swords, 12 with chainswords)

and i also have the following vehicles all in various paint schemes...
6 hellhounds
10 chimeras
7 Standard LRTs
5 Demolisher LRTs
4 Basilisks
3 Griffons
Oh, I also have 3 very oldschool termites.

In addition to my PG stuff, I have about two-thirds of the above troops in Catachan models, and about half of the above troops in each of the Tallarn and the Valhallans, although I have more plasma special weapons and less meltas in these armies, but GW didnt make a PG plasma gun model and I never got around to doing any conversions of them. And to top that all off I have about a thousand or so necromunda gang models of various gangs that i could use as conscript forces if need be.

So can anyone help me figure out what kind fo base army to put together with these new 4th and 5th edition rules so i dont look like a complete idiot when i take the field in 3 weeks for the first time in almost 10 years?

~Bart

added the ssergeants, officers, standard bearer and buglers to the above list that i somehow missed when i first posted it.

I also have 1 Praetorian Guard Commisar and 4 regular commisar. I even have 1 of the rare female commissar models as well.

OK, here is a basic list I came up with. Please post any and all suggestions as I still am trying to wrap my brain around all the changes in the last several years.........

**goes off into the game room in the basement muttering something about finding his sustained fire dice being useless now**

Command Platoon (413 points total)
Command Squad (158 points)
Junior Officer with plasma pistol and power sword, frag and krak grenades, an Honorifica Imperialis and a Refractor Field. This gives me 58 points of wargear, but this is my senior officer on the field of play. So is he still considered only a "junior officer" and subject to the 50 point limit on wargear, or because he is my unit commander would he be eligible to have 100 points of wargear for being my most senior officer? If he is only still a "junior officer" then I was thinking of dropping the plasma pistol down to a bolt pistol.
1 Standard Bearer with Company Standard, frag and krak grenades.
1 Bugler (Master Vox-Caster guardsman) with frag and krak grenades
2 Guardsmen with Flamers, frag and krak grenades
Fire Support Squad (95 points)
3 Autocannon teams
Fire Support Squad (80 points)
3 Heavy Bolter teams
Mortar Support Squad (80 points)


1st Infantry Platoon (214 points total)
Command Squad (82 points)
Junior Officer with laspistol and ccw, frag and krak grenades
1 Guardsman with vox caster, frag and krak greandes
2 Guardsmen with Flamers, frag and krak grenades
1 Guardsman with Meltagun, frag and krak grenades if having 2 different types of special weapons in the same command squad is illegal, then change this meltagun to a third flamer.
1st Squad (66 points)
Sergeant with las pistol and ccw, frag and krak grenades
1 Guardsman with Flamer
8 Guardsmen with lasguns
2nd Squad (66 points)
Sergeant with laspistol and ccw, frag and krak grenades
1 Guardsman with Flamer
8 Guardsmen with lasguns


2nd Infantry Platoon (216 total)
Command Squad (84 points)
Junior Officer with laspistol and ccw, frag and krak grenades
1 Guardsman with vox caster, frag and krak greandes
3 Guardsmen with Grenade Launchers, frag and krak grenades
1st Squad (66 points)
Sergeant with las pistol and ccw, frag and krak grenades
1 Guardsman with Flamer
8 Guardsmen with lasguns
2nd Squad (66 points)
Sergeant with laspistol and ccw, frag and krak grenades
1 Guardsman with Flamer
8 Guardsmen with lasguns


1 Leman Russ Battle Tank (155 points)
with hull-mounted Heavy Bolter and side sponson armed with Heavy Bolters


TOTAL POINTS: 998 points


I'd love to hear any suggestions or positive constructive criticism on this first attempt at making a 5th edition list.

~Bart

in 2nd you could throw grenades. In 4th and 5th grenades other than meltabombs have no purpose in a guard army.

I would suggest get rid of all of them
Vox casters while great models cost too much for a static army that doesn't need to move much out of a 12" Leadership bubble. I would recover those points
Heavy weapons are best in squads first as if you have all your heavy weapons in one area if I take out that one area you have none left.

at such low points anything but honorifica is too much. humans die in hand to hand... they just aren't as durable as aliens.

Fill out your line squads with more lascanons and heavy weapons and you should have a good starting static guard force.

I think your list is off to a good start. Follow paidinfull's recommendations. What you have is a strong core force, for higher point games squeeze in some more vehicles. Leman Russ' you can never go wrong with so add one more if you get into a 1500pt game, a Hellhound will also help deter assault units. You really have a large enough army to do whatever army configuration for IG you want, so you probably want to play a couple games and see what units work for you best.

I sure hope when the IG get their codex redone the Griffons get back in there. I used to play a pair of those, with a Leman Russ back in third.

paidinfull wrote:in 2nd you could throw grenades. In 4th and 5th grenades other than meltabombs have no purpose in a guard army.

OMG!!! I didnt even realize you couldnt throw grenades anymore....well what the hell is the point of having a grenade if you cant throw it? And who is the crack smoking fool who decided on that slowed rule change?

OK, so I'll drop them immediately. Will tinker and tweek the other things, although i resisted putting heavy weapons in the line squads simply because although IG are great in a static defense role, it seems like the games I've watched my local group play in, you still need to move some of your squads out from behind the fortifications to take objectives.....and a heavy weapon when moved still appearrs to be just a great big paperweight the weapon crew is hauling around and not shooting. I'll sleep on it and repost a newly tweeked list.

If anyone else has any suggestions I'm all ears. Also, can i have more than one type of special weapon in the same command squad...flamers and meltas for instance?

~Bart

Also, if my command platoon's command squad only has a junior officer, and he is the highest ranking officer of my army.....is he still restricted to 50 points of wargear? Or since he is the senior officer on the field does he get the higher 100 point cap?

Barthonis wrote:OMG!!! I didnt even realize you couldnt throw grenades anymore....well what the hell is the point of having a grenade if you cant throw it? And who is the crack smoking fool who decided on that slowed rule change?

Wow. You sound just like me a number of years back.

I skipped the start of 3rd Ed and had no idea of the compelte and utter paradigm shift the game went through as it made the transition from 2nd to 3rd. If you liked 2nd Ed, you're going to hate the current vehicle rules.

I'll take a closer look at this when I get home later today, but for the moment - welcome to 40K as it is now.

BYE

P.S. No, if a JO is your main HQ in the army (as in your Command Headquarters Platoon is lead by a JO), he's still stuck with 50 points of Wargear. Don't worry though. There's nothing in the Wargear list you should be taking anyway besides the Honorifica Imperialis, so it's not an issue.

OK, newly updated list. i ditched the grenades, and the other wargear from the JO except for his HI. I also got rid of the vox-casters and grenades from all of my other units. Added another mortar support squad to my command platoon (gotta love template weapons for the Guard) and went to 2 flamers and 2 meltas in my 1st Inf Platoon Command Squad and then went to 2 Grenade Launchers and 1 Heavy Bolter Team in my 2nd Inf Platoon Command Squad since they were more likely to stayput in one place. I also added a hunter killer missile to my LRBT.

Any suggestions for Doctrines? Thats a completely foreign concept to me and I'm still reading up on them.




Command Platoon (444 points total)
Command Squad (109 points)
Junior Officer with plasma pistol and power sword, and Honorifica Imperialis.
1 Standard Bearer with Company Standard.
3 Guardsmen with flamers
Fire Support Squad (95 points)
3 Autocannon teams
Fire Support Squad (80 points)
3 Heavy Bolter teams
Mortar Support Squad (80 points)
Mortar Support Squad (80 points)


1st Infantry Platoon (198 points total)
Command Squad (72 points)
Junior Officer with laspistol and ccw
2 Guardsmen with Flamers
2 Guardsman with Meltaguns
1st Squad (63 points)
Sergeant with las pistol and ccw
1 Guardsman with Flamer
8 Guardsmen with lasguns
2nd Squad (63 points)
Sergeant with laspistol and ccw
1 Guardsman with Flamer
8 Guardsmen with lasguns


2nd Infantry Platoon (192 total)
Command Squad (66 points)
Junior Officer with laspistol and ccw
2 Guardsmen with Grenade Launchers
1 Heavy Bolter weapons team
1st Squad (63 points)
Sergeant with las pistol and ccw
1 Guardsman with Flamer
8 Guardsmen with lasguns
2nd Squad (63 points)
Sergeant with laspistol and ccw
1 Guardsman with Flamer
8 Guardsmen with lasguns


1 Leman Russ Battle Tank (165 points)
with hull-mounted Heavy Bolter, side sponsons armed with Heavy Bolters, and a hunter killer missile +25 points


TOTAL POINTS: 999 points

~Bart

Well you don't have points left and I think your list is good. Take "Close Order Drills" thats free and will give you some bonuses if you decide to assault your opponent when they get close before they can get you.

Iron Discipline is good if you can find 5 points for each office.

Sharpshooters is also good but you'll need an extra 10 pts per squad.

As I said you have a good army as is so you don't want to compromise to much to get Doctrines. In moderate to low point games I've seen many IG players kill themselves by loading up on doctrines they don't really need.

what are your thoughts on finding 5 points a platoon for my line platoons and taking the xeno-fighters vs orks for when i fight the ork players armies? Seems like i could use all the help i can muster for when he gets whats left of his orks that survive my barrages and heavy weapons and flamers into close combat with my line squads. The guy in whos basement we play has a huge ork army that he's been playing every week. so i know if i had a 2nd slightly modified list with xeno-fighters on it for when i play him i could do that.

if you dont think the 5 points are worth it then i'll just stick with COD.

Thanks for all the input everyone.

~Bart

Xeno-fighter is good, its just one of those thing where some overly strict players actually expect you to model your miniatures to represent the specific "xeno" they fight. That creates an army that looks great but kinda a waste against all other armies. If your friends will let you without the modeling go for it. It'll help against the waves of orks.

Yeah its pretty much a friendly game atmosphere, although my competitive streak says to heck with that....win the damn game. Thats why we keep score, right?

As far as doctrines go, i have a game mechanics question. The codex says concerning using doctrines....

If you want to use doctrines, the procedure is quite simple:

You are allowed FIVE Doctrine points to define your regiment's specialisations. You do not have to use all five but there is no benefit to using less.

I would interpret that to mean that a player can select up to 5 doctrines, and that the "doctrine points" are seperate from the army points. Saying you have 5 doctrine points is a somewhat confusing way of saying you can pick 5 doctrines. Am I correct on this?

Guard Infantry
In several of the following Doctrine descriptions, the term Guard Infantry unit is used. In this context, the definition includes any command squad along with its Officer and any attached advisors, Anti-Tank squads, Fire Support squads, Special Weapon squads (if the regiment may use them), Mortar Squads, Hardened Veteran Squads, normal infantry Platoon squads and Armored Fist Squads.

So, since according to the doctrine description for Xeno-fighter.....Any Guard Infantry unit or Sentinel Squadron may be upgraded to Xeno-fighters at a cost of +5 points per infantry unit or Sentinel......It would cost me 5 points for the whole command platoon, 5 points for my first infantry platoon, and 5 points for my second infantry platoon. Am I correct there as well? If so thats a nice, and cheap way (15 points total for all 3 platoons!) to help my grunts out when his mob/horde finally makes it to my lines.

~Bart

Barthonis wrote:So, since according to the doctrine description for Xeno-fighter.....Any Guard Infantry unit or Sentinel Squadron may be upgraded to Xeno-fighters at a cost of +5 points per infantry unit or Sentinel......It would cost me 5 points for the whole command platoon, 5 points for my first infantry platoon, and 5 points for my second infantry platoon. Am I correct there as well? If so thats a nice, and cheap way (15 points total for all 3 platoons!) to help my grunts out when his mob/horde finally makes it to my lines.

~Bart

Incorrect. It's five points per squad. Wherever anything says unit it means squad, not platoon. I hadn't noticed that confusing bit of the Guard Infantry definition before. "Any command squad along with its Officer and any attached advisors" is meant to be a discrete list entry, not "any attached advisors, anti-tank squads, fire support squads..."

Anyway, as for the doctrine itself, on an infantry squad the difference it makes is letting you slap the charging orks on the wrist seven times instead of five. If you give it to your whole army and then the whole things gets completely destroyed in assault it should get you a half dozen extra dead orks. Doesn't really stand a chance of being worth it unless you're actually charging the orks for some reason.

Barthonis wrote:

If you want to use doctrines, the procedure is quite simple:

You are allowed FIVE Doctrine points to define your regiment's specialisations. You do not have to use all five but there is no benefit to using less.

I would interpret that to mean that a player can select up to 5 doctrines, and that the "doctrine points" are seperate from the army points. Saying you have 5 doctrine points is a somewhat confusing way of saying you can pick 5 doctrines. Am I correct on this?

I think i get what you are saying... and i think the answer is yes. You can have 5 doctrines per army. You can choose to have less- but you can have up to 5. (what are army points?)

Barthonis wrote:

Guard Infantry
In several of the following Doctrine descriptions, the term Guard Infantry unit is used. In this context, the definition includes any command squad along with its Officer and any attached advisors, Anti-Tank squads, Fire Support squads, Special Weapon squads (if the regiment may use them), Mortar Squads, Hardened Veteran Squads, normal infantry Platoon squads and Armored Fist Squads.

So, since according to the doctrine description for Xeno-fighter.....Any Guard Infantry unit or Sentinel Squadron may be upgraded to Xeno-fighters at a cost of +5 points per infantry unit or Sentinel......It would cost me 5 points for the whole command platoon, 5 points for my first infantry platoon, and 5 points for my second infantry platoon. Am I correct there as well? If so thats a nice, and cheap way (15 points total for all 3 platoons!) to help my grunts out when his mob/horde finally makes it to my lines.

~Bart

That is incorrect- you pay 5 for command, then 5 per every squad. It's not a requirement for every squad in a platoon to take the same doctrine.

also- against the ork mob- you can increase your survivability by getting the charge on them- It gives you extra attacks, denies him furious charge.

Furious charge makes him +1 initiative +1 str on the charge. When you charge him- you strike first- and then he needs fours to wound. You have a much higher chance of success.

When using that tactic- watch out for orks consolidating close to your lines, then charging next turn.

paidinfull wrote:in 2nd you could throw grenades. In 4th and 5th grenades other than meltabombs have no purpose in a guard army.

I would suggest get rid of all of them
Vox casters while great models cost too much for a static army that doesn't need to move much out of a 12" Leadership bubble. I would recover those points
Heavy weapons are best in squads first as if you have all your heavy weapons in one area if I take out that one area you have none left.

at such low points anything but honorifica is too much. humans die in hand to hand... they just aren't as durable as aliens.

Fill out your line squads with more lascanons and heavy weapons and you should have a good starting static guard force.

a) frag are not that effective but have their moments krak are decent agenst light- med vehicles melta bombs not all guard can take and are expensive.
b)vox casters work well if you dont want their whole army to gang up on 1 position.
c)I agree with the hw statment but I would leave the mortar squad.
d)Lascannons they are much too expensive, and only have afew uses, auto cannons are useful all around guns with 2 shots, missile launcher can be decent anti infantry and anti tank gun, and heavy bolters can be very usefull against orks. IMHO

thank you all for the critics and suggestions....I'd welcome any more input any of you have for me.

~Bart

anyone at all?

I think I've got a handle for playing this army against the orks player.........any suggeestions for fighting a Plague Marine army? I know he has a Soul Grinder and some other figs that can change what weapon they use each turn as they desire, and of course nurglings and basic plague marines.

Does the above list look OK there or should I taylor it differently?

Are you fully aware of the squad restrictions that come from using doctrines? You may very well be, but I didn't see you mention it and it is worth noting. If you were buying new models I would advise you to wait for the new codex, but as long as you are just messing around with models you already have there's no reason to wait for it.

Something else to mention, someone else said to drop the mortars, I wouldn't put it that drastically, but I have found mortars to be terribly useless, although I haven't got a chance to use them in 5th ed with no Partials, they may have increased in usefulness. A better idea for fighting off orks than doctrines is something I read at this very forum, having a two-line defence, because winners of a combat can't sweeping advance/consolidate into combat anymore, you should get a chance to shoot with your second line once the first has been thoroughly butchered, especially if you load up the second line with flamers. Close-Order Drill is probably a good idea, and I think was written with Praetorians in mind (didn't they used to have a special rule similar to COD for Praetorians?). And I never go to battle with IG without two Leman Russ Tanks, but maybe that's just me...

Ok, I'm not sure about your use of lots of flamers in your squads - they're not going to be much use against a Plaguemarine army, and you're going to have to get up close to use them, which you REALLY don't want to do with your guard. I can see your point about having mobile guard units with no heavy, but I don't think you should do this to ALL your base squads. Also, you're running quite low on tank-killing weapons. I also think the mixing of special weapons is a big nono.

I would do the following...

In platoon 2, swap the flamers in the squads for plasmaguns, and put in missile launcher teams. This gives you a static, versatile, fire support platoon against both PM and orks. You currently don't have many things that ignore the 3+ save of the Plaguemarines.

In platoon 1, arm the CHQ with either entirely flamers or entirely meltaguns. It's a small unit, and since it has to get close either way you arm them, it WILL die. But hopefully it can do something useful before it does.

In platoon 1, give the squads vox casters. They're gonna lose their platoon HQ unit, so they need to keep in touch with that master vox.

I've never found a use for it, and it tends to be generally derided, but you might think about taking the Jungle Fighters doctrine for Platoon 1. If you're intent on them being the close up, flamer-armed, objective seizing platoon, then you might like to take the Heavy Flamers that this doctrine allows you. Heavy Flamers are assault weapons, so you could move and fire them as well as your general flamers. You could use some of those spare flamers you'll have lying around

In the Command HQ, if your junior officer is going to hang back to bolster the LD of your Heavy Weapon squads, I'd give him some heavy weapons too.

Hellhounds are widely considered FANTASTIC. I'd take one if you can find the points.

Also, you might condsider making up your Valhallans as a Mechanised IG army with all those chimeras! You've proabably got just the right amount of Valhallan troop models for one.

Of course, all that stuff costs points, which I wan't really taking into account. See what you can do, though...

Hell, step up to 1500 and fill in the remaining bits with all those tanks you've got left over

Played my first test game with this army. It was against Plague Marines and didnt go well...not at all.

Will post more info but I was forced to the realization that while that list would probably do good against ork/horde type armies....it is woefully inadequate against armies that have decent armor saves. I definitely need more "punch" factor. I'll post a revised list in the next few days, right after I offer up a sacrifice to the dice gods, since they also have some sort of apparent grudge against me the way I was rolling last night.

~Bart

sorry about the lag in battle report / new list. will get it posted either tonight or tomorrow.

~Bart