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"Ok, not good. You're right. Lascannons don't work."

that was a quote from HBMC in the 40k Army List for "1750 Imperial Guard Tourney List"

i realized that one of the signs of the end times was here when i saw that HBMC advised

a IG player to NOT take lascannons.

but seriously, it got me to thinking. which is better for the 5ed. IG player lascannons or

drop meltas? are all guard lists going to have to include DT as a doctrine to take out armor?

with 5th giving a lascannon HW squad a chance to be decent with them receiveing a possible

cover save now, is potentially not worth it because the lascannon "aint what it used to be"?

thanks for any input.

Good question. I try to address it here.

http://www.dakkadakka.com/wiki/en/Tank_Hunting_for_the_Imperial_Guard

alarmingrick wrote:i realized that one of the signs of the end times was here when i saw that HBMC advised a IG player to NOT take lascannons.

You think it worried you? Think how I feel. The staple of Las/Plas isn't a staple any more!

You basically need to use Meltaguns. I'm not even sure that the Autocannon will be much good any more - the math presented in that nice article seems to indicate that.

The Holy Trinity of Guard is falling...

BYE

Well, we do have to take the total game perspective.

Does Treble's analysis indicate that lascannons are poor performers for guard alone, or for everyone in general?

The only weapons worth a damn against vehicles with AV13-14 seem to be meltaguns and railguns. Lascannons are just as good for Guard as they are for Chaos and Marines. The problem is 'how good is that?' is now 'not very good'.

Is it even worth taking heavy weapons anymore? I'm kind of up in the air on this one. Dumping all the heavy weapons in a list for, say, plasmaguns, frees up quite a few points to put more guys on the board. Avoiding kill point scenarios, it really seems that taking more men and killing troops is the better option.

It looks like the IG need at least the vanquisher back into the codex.
It's a shame GW cancelled the vanquisher and the exterminator from the current.

There's also melta bombs. Six rough riders (squad size chosen entirely to simplify calculating number of hits) with melta bombs cost 72 points before other upgrades. Against a stationary vehicle that's six hits, 3 on a moving one, and 1 on a cruising one. Against AV 14 a sixth of all hits kill, and even if you don't score a kill there's a good chance the vehicle will be unable to move away next turn, leaving the unit free to try again. If you manage to get the attack off you only need a little luck to take out a land raider. Doesn't help against a monolith, though.

The look on the other guy's face if you charge a tank on horseback and win should be priceless.

"Good question. I try to address it here."

cool and i try to address it here.

seriously though, great article.

I've also come to the same conclusions regarding anti-tank for IG, here are some other things that I've considered.

Dropping Vets with meltas are good vs Main Battle Tanks (Hammerheads, Predator, Leman Russ) because although they'll arrive on turn two or later, they'll still neutralize the target once they arrive.

Dropping Vets with meltas and meltas in general, however, are bad against transports (Trukk, Rhino, Falcon, Land Raider Crusader) because by the time they become available, the transport has already done it's job. I thought, ok, I'll still bring Lascannons for the transports (which are statistically better at destroying AV11-12 than autocannons and still have AP2 for Termies, 2+ Tyrants and 'Fexes) so I can stop the transports at long range. The problem with this, however, is the Land Raider Crusader, Wave Serpent, and to a lesser extent, the Falcon. The Lascannon will simply not stop these vehicles reliably enough at range, where we need them to be stopped.

So what do we do? A mechanized assault army will hit IG gunlines en masse. Do we forgo the long range shooting that defines Guard and attempt to be a horde short range shooting army with tons of Flamers and Meltas? Starts to sound a lot like horde Sisters without Exorcists (which outperform Guard triple Lascannon Teams against anything except AV14) which seems poor.

What I'm currently working on is switching to a hybrid Sisters w/ Guard list with Heavy Bolter/Flamers for the line squads and meltas for the command squads. Exorcist for the anti-Transport duty with Quad melta teams in Rhinos or Guard Chimeras (with Smoke Launchers that still downgrade pens to glances) for anti-Main Battle tank duty.

I'd like to make something similar work for and IG army, but the Exorcist provides a lot of what IG is lacking.

Given the cost and ineffectiveness... does this make missile launchers a viable alternative? Sure, they're less good against vehicles, but with the new blast rules they're much better against infantry, and they don't waste any AP to cover saves.

A heavy bolter shakes out to roughly 1/2 a dead ork a turn (3 shots * 1/2 to hit * 2/3 to wound * 1/2 cover), or 2/3 a dead ork if it's just a KFF.

Looking at the missile launcher, to kill 2/3 of an ork you need to wound 1 ork (with a 5++) which means hitting 2 orks with the blast template. Given the way ork hordes operate, I'm not so sure that's that tough. Sure, the scatter can be cruel, but a good hit can hit 4, 5 or more!

I'm also less worried about Land Raiders in 5th. In 4th, if a land raider and it's cargo hit my lines on turn 2, the game was usually over. He could roll up my line, and score with the raider. Now? The raider can only contest, not hold. He can't consolodate, and lets face it, any unit ridining in a land raider is going to wipe out an IG squad.

If I go first, I deploy conservatively, and shoot the land raiders as best I can on turn 1. IME, it's a little harder to get cover than people think for a vehicle that big. If I go second, I rope a dope. I see his deployment, I give him a squad for each land raider to eat, and I spend my turn 1 shooting at any support he has. His turn two he wipes out my sacraficial squads, but then I move up with the rest of my army, including melta vets for the land raiders and flamers/plasma/battle cannons for the cargo.

It'll be taut, but I think IG can actually dance longer than they could in 4th edition with a land raider force.

I updated the article to add rough riders. I also added a conclusions section.

This guide is for Imperial Guard but the ideas could be applied to any army.

The improved cover saves for vehicles has helped them. The important change is removing destroyed results for penetrating hits except for AP 1 weapons. The only AP 1 weapon, melta, also has an additional d6 armour penetration at half range making them clear winners.

The other important change is that vehicle assaults are resolved against the rear armour.

kadun wrote:Dropping Vets with meltas and meltas in general, however, are bad against transports

My friend's Land Raider Crusader is what got me started on all of this.

does this make missile launchers a viable alternative?

A Blast is not a Template. They both use Markers. Assume a blast over three Orks.

Cover 1/2 * Scatter 1/2 * Wound 1/2 = 1/8

There is an inaccuracy in your article. Ratlings cannot take sharpshooters.

If everyone stops taking lascannons, my Monoliths will be very happy indeed.

Aduro wrote:If everyone stops taking lascannons, my Monoliths will be very happy indeed.

Which brings up another good point, what does IG do against Monoliths.

Lets assume no cover, what does a Guard Lascannon do:

1 shot x 1/2 chance to hit x 1/6 chance to pen x 2/3 chance to destroy = 1/18.

Not as bad as I thought with cover gone, as long as you're bringing 15 or so Lascannons. Is that a better skeleton for gunline Guard now? Say 5 triple Lascannon teams with Cameleoline to help keep 6 T3 Guardsman alive? The rest of the army line squads with Heavy Bolter/Flamer?

Edit: Whoops thats only a 1/3 chance to destroy so total would be 1/36. A lot worse.

Not Lascannons, Meltaguns. Multiple Veterans or Command Squads.

But that's the thing, it's changing the fundamentals of how guard armies work. Before it was a gunline with a ridiculous number of heavy weapons...now those heavy weapons are nerfed. Drop Troops isn't gimmicky anymore, it's essential.

That being said....new holy trinity being Heavy Bolter, Plasma Rifle, and Spam Meltaguns/Flamers ?

wow, we've gone from the lascannon or missle launcher debate, to autocannon or heavy bolter.

the downside to the suicidal melta/plasma squads could be they're a one shot and done. odds are they will die

a horrible and tragic death after their breif (and hopefully sucessful) appearance. the possible 10 wound lascannon

was a little more durable. IMHO anyway.

and seriously, how often would a IG player face an Armored Co. with 7 - 8 (more or less) Russes?

OMG, I got mentioned in an article.

The main reason I specifically mentioned Rough Riders was their mobility. 12" charge range plus the run move makes them the longest ranged melta effect available to the Guard. Getting applied en masse to rear armor is a bonus. Other units (Stormtroopers, special weapons squads) can get melta bombs but as with melta guns they have to get within 6".

Shame I don't like rough riders. They look like a very lethal counter assault unit.

take this with a grain of salt a I have not been able to play 5th yet as i am out of the country, however, my gaurd army was all drop troops and the suicide droop squads are more survivable than you may think.

the key is to take a ton of them, if you overload your opponant with squads, he cant kill them all in one round of shooting, and now with assault units unable to consolidate into another squad, your boys have an even better chance of getting off another turn of shooting. combine that with the fact that you can always deep strike now, and i see good times ahead for drop troop gaurd.

my favorite combo was infantry squads with drop troops and jungle fighters to take a heavy flamer and flamer. this allowed me to put a hurting on infantry and to have a decent shot at rear armor on tanks as the flamers auto hit.

then i would spam command squads, vets and special weapon squads for anti tank or heavy infantry.

the thing is, when you have 12 to 15 units dropping in in a single turn, your opponant usually wont physically have enough units to shoot them all, so some of them survive for another turn of shooting. and, youhit him so hard the turn you drop in, he has trouble hittin gyou back. the new deep strike rules could screw this up a bit though, but i wouldnt know yet from personal experience.

i took a bunch of tanks too, if you went with less armor you could really overwhelm your opponant with targets.

anyway, that is my two cents on the matter, hope it helped.

Today I dumped lascannons completely and played 2 games with only drop troops with plasma and drop vets with melta (that could also outflank if I felt it the better choice). I opted to go second twice because it gave me the option of dropping in or outflanking.

I found I didn't miss lascannons at all. 3 squads of drop vets were sufficient for taking out tanks and dreadnoughts, and afterwards they could run around and pick off the odd transport that was attempting to contest. By also dropping in 6 more squads of infantry with plasma guns, I kept the vet squads alive for a very long time by providing too many targets to mop up easily.

In the odd occasion, a LRBT shot against side armor was effective enough long range anti tank to keep things pretty well shut down. I absolutely obliterated a solid black templar army and did very well in a 2v2 team game against IG and Marines.

I cant believe I'm gonna say this, but here goes.....

I may actually finish putting those roughrider boxsets and blisters i bought almost 10 years ago together and paint them....

wow, that just felt wierd saying that. lol

~Bart

Here is something that I am thinking of...

The fact that Sentinels can come on from flanks make them a very tasty option. Have a drop troop army with plasma in line squads, and melta toting command and vets. Combine that with about 4-6 autocannon armed sentinels coming on from the flanks and you should eb able to take out any enemy armour.

Just an idea

does the apparent need for massed meltas make the doctrine Sharpshooter suddenly worth a second look?

spending that 10 points on 1 lascannon in a line squad didn't seem worth it. but in a squad that has 3-4 meltas

in it almost seems like a good use of 40 - 60 points. and since i'm not going to need 9 lascannons @ 25 pt. ea.

i'll have a few extra points!

thoughts?

alarmingrick wrote:does the apparent need for massed meltas make the doctrine Sharpshooter suddenly worth a second look?

spending that 10 points on 1 lascannon in a line squad didn't seem worth it. but in a squad that has 3-4 meltas

in it almost seems like a good use of 40 - 60 points. and since i'm not going to need 9 lascannons @ 25 pt. ea.

i'll have a few extra points!

thoughts?

I believe Stelek uses Sharpshooters exactly as you've described in his drop Guard lists successfully.