Forum adverts like this one are shown to any user who is not logged in. Join us by filling out a tiny 3 field form and you will get your own, free, dakka user account which gives a good range of benefits to you: No adverts like this in the forums anymore. Times and dates in your local timezone. Full tracking of what you have read so you can skip to your first unread post, easily see what has changed since you last logged in, and easily see what is new at a glance. Email notifications for threads you want to watch closely. Being a part of the oldest wargaming community on the net. If you are already a member then feel free to login now.

If you have a piece of area terrain that is a woods, and if you completely fill the woods template that is marking the area of woods with trees and brush so that there is no LOS possible through it, then are models on the other side blocked due to true LOS or can they still be seen but receive a 4+ cover save? I ask this because there seems to be a bit of contention regarding this in the group I play with. Some say since tournaments aren't going to have a lot of woods templates with lots of trees that block LOS that they are going to play as though all woods can be seen through, even if one can't draw LOS through the woods.

I say that one tree, not in area terrain, can block LOS to a model if it is big enough, and that if you put several trees together they can block LOS to several models, without calling it "area terrain." For example, you could have a "wall" of trees that block LOS, but isn't considered area terrain. But others say that if you place those same trees on a template to represent area terrain, then even if that template is completely filled with trees and brush, then suddenly they no longer block LOS because they are treated as area terrain now.

Your thoughts?

"If you can see it you can shoot it"

That's the basic RAW. As far as "house rules" do whatever your gaming group agrees to.

Red_Lives wrote:"If you can see it you can shoot it"

That's the basic RAW. As far as "house rules" do whatever your gaming group agrees to.

That's exactly what I was thinking. I see nothing in the rules that states area terrain doesn't block LOS. I think where some of the confusion is coming in is due to the "exceptions" listed in the cover saves rules about firing through the gaps of certain elements of area terrain, and the picture example given in the rulebook. If there are no gaps to fire through in a piece of area terrain, then obviously there is no LOS.

Lord_Mortis wrote:

That's exactly what I was thinking. I see nothing in the rules that states area terrain doesn't block LOS. I think where some of the confusion is coming in is due to the "exceptions" listed in the cover saves rules about firing through the gaps of certain elements of area terrain, and the picture example given in the rulebook. If there are no gaps to fire through in a piece of area terrain, then obviously there is no LOS.

You are completely correct. The only thing the rules allow to ignore when drawing LOS is models in the firing unit. Everything else in the game, models and terrain block line of sight exactly as they are.

Now, if you made a forest completely full of trees, you probably wouldn't want to classify it as area terrain anymore (it's really up to the players ultimately) but doing so wouldn't change the fact that what blocks physical LOS blocks LOS.

Gone are the days of a kidney shaped area with a tree on it that completely blocks LOS to everything (its size or smaller) behind it.

If you can see things through the woods, they can be shot. That's how TLOS works. In order for area terrain to block LOS in the way it used to, it must now physically do so.

I made up some new terrain pieces for my club (to replace older stuff that really needed replacing). I started with a foam hill that was 1" tall, on a 3mm mdf base.

Trees ring the periphery (1 and a bit inches between them) leaving enough space in the middle to fit 8-10 regular infantry 25mm bases or two 60mm bases. Finally, shrubbery was attached (coloured lichen) around the outside of the trees, to bring the top level of the hill up to 35mm or so.

Most regular infantry can hid behind these pieces completely (as it blocks LOS to them completely), and it blocks LOS to the hull of a Rhino based vehicle as well.

Of course, one could just accept the fact that ordinary woods do not block LOS, they just confer a cover save. For blocking LOS you can shift to bldgs, walls, rock formations and the like.

The main problem with area terrain in 4th was that (it seems) very few people knew how to play it properly. Only ruins and woods were "area terrain", everything else was supposed to be TLOS terrain. A lot of people in my area, tended to declare ALL terrain as area, size 3 (even hills).

Walls block TLOS quite well. So do buildngs.

I'm going to be putting a few new buildings together for my club, using the new rules for buildings and fire points.
We'll then have terrain that can block TLOS to titans, as well (there's a Revenant and Warhound in the club).