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Im aware that there have been several posts concerning competitive Sisters, but I dont really want to practice threadromancy. I see that sisters have recently been praised as having major improvements in V5 and are now considered 'top tier' or higher ranked as a list. I had a few army selection questions and any help or advice in these would be appreciated.

The pros I see are: massed flamers and meltas, book of lucius, unstoppable acts of faith, 3+ save and low (or fair) basic points costs, decent troop unit, move and shoot exorcists, no real penalty anymore for eviscerators being 2h...

Cons: minimal cc capability, minimal long ranged anti armor without exorcists or allies, need to run alot or mechanized to take objectives

Any more pros or cons?

So my question is:

In 1750, with the current knowledge about the new marines and with V5 changes, which Sisters build is considered the most powerful or competitive in a tournament environment?

1) Mech sisters?
A) If so, go full exorcists or no exorcists? (have seen people saying both)
B) Immolators-Are these recommended, how many in a 1750 list, and multimelta or flamer?
C) How many rhinoed battle sisters squads should be used in 1750? Is three too few? Should I mix melta and flamer or go either melta or flamer?
C) Should Dominions w/4 (or 5 w/vss) flamers be used? Seem extremely powerful now with new template and wounding rules
D) Should I bother with one or two Battle Sister vss with Eviscerators, or just go all shooting?

2) All Infantry Sisters?
A) 3 full ret squads w/hb seem decent, any reason not to use them?
B) What have been people's experience with orbital strikes? Worth taking instead of Rets? (i know it requires an inquisitor) Melta or lance?


3) Hybrid infantry Sisters/Allies
A) Should guard be used for lascannons/plasma guns, or does kill points make this less attractive now?
B) Any other sisters with allies combos worth mentioning?

Is there any other list type that is more competitive that hasnt been mentioned here?

Also, how are people equipping their Sister ICs while mechanized? Should they be using eviscerators?

Thanks for the help!

Having played mech SOBs for years, I think mech is the strongest build. That said in 5th you quickly run into a KP issue. If you go mech SOBs always run 3 exorcists. They are just way to good not too and require not faith.

The tougher question is whether you run a retnue at the cost of giving up another troop squad. Thus far I say yes. I've also been screwing around with a Landraider too recently.

Finally, you probably want to consider a deepstriking celestian squad for tank hunting. It fills a huge hole.

If you build infantry you have to start thinking faith conservation. 20 man squads are much more efficient than 10 man squads, and retributors burn ALOT of faith so you probably need to run batteries (ie 5 man celestian squads with a hvy bolters) Or faith piniata's (cannoness made to die to get a bunch of faith).

There is also the hvy immolator build, which I've never liked. You basically ignore faith which I think it really important for dealing with MEQ. Also in 5th you have a serious KP issue.

When you go hybrid It depends on a lot of personal preferences. A lot of people run mass SOBs and then a couple counter assault rhino base squads to punish encroachers. Also check out Zealots, they are ridiculously good for SOBs.

I think if you go mixed you use IG as the parent list and ally SOBs to it. Units like 50 conscripts with a book are brutal, and hell hounds, lemans, and rough riders all work really well with mounted SOBs. Plus you can just deep strike the the platoon squads, or give them camoline and hide them in terrain as a supportive element.

You shoudl also consider Black templar with SOBs. I alot of synergy here, and they really compliment each other.

I might have missed it, but how do Celestians deep strike again? You mean Seraphim?

Sorry. I meant Serephim. They really help with that long range AV 14 or basalisk that has terrain to hide behind.

Pete

Sorry. I meant Serephim. They really help with that long range AV 14 or basalisk that has terrain to hide behind.

Pete

those tanks are rarely standing there alone, and you're probably losing your seraphim unit next turn...

Who cares. They are a throw away unit. If you pop or even stun or distract the tank for a turn that might one more turn your mech sisters rhino lives. The whole list lives and dies by rhinos.

That's why I think a land raider would be so powerful. You are very likely to get across the board and you can hid a bunch of rhino's behind it it you run it up the board sideways.

Pete

Pdeflorio wrote:Who cares. They are a throw away unit. If you pop or even stun or distract the tank for a turn that might one more turn your mech sisters rhino lives. The whole list lives and dies by rhinos.

That's why I think a land raider would be so powerful. You are very likely to get across the board and you can hid a bunch of rhino's behind it it you run it up the board sideways.

Pete

Doing the land raider slide always just seemed wierd to me.
"Sir, what's that comming our way? It looks like a land raider...only its driving sideways."
Heck, why not just model your land raider to look like a Winabego with wing.

Lol. I've actually considered modeling a land raider side ways becasue it looks so slowed running it as configured.

Pete

So everyone is of the agreement that mech sisters is the way to go in 1750? Anyone else have any advice as per the selection questions for mech sisters?

Raon wrote:1) Mech sisters?
A) If so, go full exorcists or no exorcists? (have seen people saying both)
B) Immolators-Are these recommended, how many in a 1750 list, and multimelta or flamer?
C) How many rhinoed battle sisters squads should be used in 1750? Is three too few? Should I mix melta and flamer or go either melta or flamer?
D) Should Dominions w/4 (or 5 w/vss) flamers be used? Seem extremely powerful now with new template and wounding rules
E) Should I bother with one or two Battle Sister vss with Eviscerators, or just go all shooting?

I haven't ran a full mech sisters list since early-mid 4th ed.

A) At that time exorcist spam was compulsory. In 5th ed, you might want to consider the usefulness of Retributors. They can also take immolators as a transport so you wont have to waste a heavy support slot on just an immolator. In my eyes, retributors may become even more commonly used than exorcists were.
B) Now that any unit can use transports, immolators are going to be a lot more useful now. Heavy flamer prefferably, but a justice pattern (multimelta) is not a bad option to have one of. Especially if you opt to not use exorcists.
C) I would say 5 transports bare minimum. Rhinos or immolators.
D) These could be a better unit now than in 5th, but I think that they are still quite expensive. Seraphim should still be considered first and foremost.
E) In general, I would say just remain shooty, but depending on how you outfit a unit, they are really a nice addition at times. I wouldn't go overboard with them though.

I usually run a power armor horde with 2 exorcists for support. Generally something like this:

1 Cannoness, 2+ save, blessed weapon, inferno pistol.
Elite inq with sages, 2 HB and 1 PC servitor.
Callidus
2x 10 Sisters, VSS melta, flamer, sometimes Evisc
1x 13 Sisters, VSS 3xstorm bolters
6 Retrib w/3 HB
2 Exorcists
6 Seraphim with Vet, Evisc and 2 flamers
7 Seraphim with vet, power weapon and flamers.

Generally it changes a little to accomodate 1500-2000 points, but that is basically the gist of it. Now, I haven't played it much in 5th, but for 4th it actually worked pretty well, with enough faith to really work the invulnerable saves, and fire off divine guidance when needed. I am a bit more optimistic with 5th given the ability to run (since the girls generally don't shoot much turn 1).

Now, one could probably cram more power armor in there, especially since the Callidus is not as exciting as she used to be, but for me at least it worked out pretty well.

I was looking at something to similar to this tonight actually.

Trying to decide which way to go.

I was gonna go with 3 rhinos, and then probably 2 immolator's. Not sure if it's good to mix and match though.

Add to this 2 exorcists and there's 7 tanks bringing the pain.

I'll draw up a rough mech list later

immolators are really a waste of points...

some armies get rhazorbacks for less! with better weapons :(

if you are looking for tanks go rhino transports and exorcists.

I have nothing valuable to add to the conversation, I just thought the idea of a land raider showing up to a drift race would be awesome.

Those same armies that get razorbacks cheaper also get rhinos cheaper, by that reasoning does that mean you stop using rhinos as well? Why are immolators a waste of points, as its 15 points more for a twin linked 12" move heavy flamer...?

I run a list that's like your option #3.

Lots of sisters, with two armored fist squads (las/plas, autocannon turret chimera) and a russ.

The Chimerae act as transports for the sisters squads as needed while the immolators are used with Dominion squads.

cannoness with book and bolter, 5 celestian retinue, 2 melta, immolator 197p

9 sisters, 2 melta, vss, book, rhino x2 396p

6 celestians, 2 melta, immolator x3 450p

5 dominions(retributors? whichever is the fast attack slot), vss, book, 4 melta, immolator x3 627p

1668 points, 10 faith, 62 sisters, 9 tanks, 7 immolators. A bunch of points left over to bulk up the cannoness, give the vehicles smoke, distribute wargear, do what you like.

List has everything you need, plenty of bolter fire and flamer templates (7 12" move heavy flamer templates!) and enough melta to make pretty much every tank that gets close (which you'll always want to be anyway) instantly, instantly die or become worthless.

The only thing you have to worry about is cc but with all that faith at 1750, you can cheese your way out with a few inv. save faith tests, plus the book of st lucious pretty much invalidates the way new combat resolution works.

sisters are very, very scary at 1750, even without exorcists.

That is the immolator heavy sisters list.

I wrote up a 1500 list earlier, focussing more on sister squads in rhinos. Both have their advantages.

I think about 9-10 tanks is a good aim for 1750.

Raon wrote:Those same armies that get razorbacks cheaper also get rhinos cheaper, by that reasoning does that mean you stop using rhinos as well? Why are immolators a waste of points, as its 15 points more for a twin linked 12" move heavy flamer...?

Lets start with the rhino comment. Yes they get the rhino cheaper... but they pay alot more for extra armor and smoke. As a matter of fact when they buy these upgrades they come out to almost if not the same cost as our rhinos? No loss in efficiency.

Heavy flamer on tanks?
How about the fact that you need to start the flamer at the gun so it doesn't always get as many models as you can get with a regular sister with a heavy flamer? This is the reason a heavy flamer sponson is a horrible idea! and you need to be an inch away also...

Ok... its twin linked... but you only get 3-4 models under that template and if your opponent knows they could get flamed the next turn that becomes 2-3 if they are good. Lets do this vs marines... you flamer and wound all 3 marines you hit. 2 saves one wound... you've killed a 15 point marine.... good job. Opponents turn? they shoot you with a melta gun, or any anti tank weapon then assault your rear armor with a fist... There goes your 65pt immolator... that stinks...
Mind you it can cover more! so lets do that math. 8 marines hit since they all jumped out of a rhino last turn.... lets just say you wound ALL of them. 5.5 of the marines make saves. So thats 2.5 wounds. We will round up for the case of the marines and say you killed 3 Marines.... next turn again your expensive immolator dies. They aren't going to fall back most of the time with their Leadership 9...

Its just not as point efficient as the Unit of sisters shooting with a Heavy flamer melta gun and 8 bolters and Divine guidance.

You now may be thinking I missed the sisters in the Immolator! well... there are only 6 of them... and they get a heavy flamer and melta and.. 4 bolters.... no divine guidance on average. If the Immolator is using its flamer to get the max number of hits your squads flamer isn't getting the max number of hits either on average.

They are ok tanks, don't get me wrong. But they are not efficient enough to use.
Just my 2 cents on immolators.

I know its theoryhammer but....

5 Dominions can get 4 flamers and a vss with one shot flamer for 115 points.
For 80 points you can get a Sister IC w/ book of auto passing Divine Guidance and one shot flamer, thats 6 divine guidance flamers...6 sisters can still be lethal...

But with the inch loss from turret, and the inch away from the enemy I do see your point of the loss of efficiency from the heavy flamer. I guess I am still used to my hellhounds...I think the idea of the immolator proponents is more the inclination to still try to be useful after they dropped off their cargo of sisters, or attack two targets from one vehicle.

I been going with Mech because Exorcists are just that good. Exorcists can be inconsistent at times but other times they really rack up the kills.

Immolators aren't so good. In theory if you run a dual melta scelestian squad inside you can hop out with the dual melta celestian squad pop a tank and then burn the guys who hop out with the immolators flamers. However this is pretty difficult to position just right so you maximize the use of the flamer and most vehicles have multiple exit points so the enemy can get out at an exit point where your flamer might not hit so many guys. Immolators also only hold 6 sisters which means you can't use divine guidance on that squad if you want to shoot infantry. I guess you could run a multimelta immolator but it still only holds 6 sisters which is not so hot unless running small 2 melta celestian squads or multiple flamer domions.

I think you should have at least 3 scoring Rhino Squads of Sisters at 1750 if not 4.

Problem with a all flamer dominion squad is it is only useful against infantry. 2 Flamer 2 Melta might be the way to go but meltas for dominions are expensive.

I don't think Eviscerators are worth it except for Seraphim where you can assault and hit and run.

Raon wrote:I know its theoryhammer but....

5 Dominions can get 4 flamers and a vss with one shot flamer for 115 points.
For 80 points you can get a Sister IC w/ book of auto passing Divine Guidance and one shot flamer, thats 6 divine guidance flamers...6 sisters can still be lethal...

But with the inch loss from turret, and the inch away from the enemy I do see your point of the loss of efficiency from the heavy flamer. I guess I am still used to my hellhounds...I think the idea of the immolator proponents is more the inclination to still try to be useful after they dropped off their cargo of sisters, or attack two targets from one vehicle.

Hell hounds are nice.... I wish we counld get them in a sisters army... It wound be fluffy... or if the Immolator worked the same way as a hell hound!

yea... it is def theory hammer since your never going to be able to position the squad and the immolator to hit well at the same time. If you want the 5-6 flamers in a squad to all hit to make max use of DG then the immolator that dropped them off isn't hitting the squad.

Also this is a big waste of a cannoness. I would much rather hit them with a rhino squad and then have the cannoness assault to finish off the remnants. (146 for the cannoness I run, 209 for the rino squad) vs (80 for the immolator with armor and promethium 80 for the cannoness that is useless after she uses her litanies and one shot flamer and 115 for the squad)

Thats
355pts of useful stuff that is hard to kill and is useful against all opponents vs 275 pts of a one trick pony that needs ALOT of Luck to get good positioning and is only good in a rare case

Immolators are alot more fun tho

immolators are to be run with smoke and armor, no holy promethium
and they are to be run in great numbers, that is at least 6 mounted squads, plus 2 more mounted squads on rhinos

they are great because they're a rhinos that move 12 AND fire a powerful flamer
and they carry 4 bolters and 2 meltas inside

when you've got 6 or 7 of them, they start to make a difference

and doing the math on MEQs is of course bad for the immolators, but it's not unexpected since flamers were never meant to shine for their elite models killing capability

Immolators destroy marines.

I am not sure who is actually playing Sisters currently, but man foot or mech Sisters have always been my favorite army (right above the Dark Eldar and Legion of the Damned).

They aren't unbeatable by any means, but they are...incredibly powerful even run poorly.

frgsinwntr wrote:yea... it is def theory hammer since your never going to be able to position the squad and the immolator to hit well at the same time. If you want the 5-6 flamers in a squad to all hit to make max use of DG then the immolator that dropped them off isn't hitting the squad.

Also this is a big waste of a cannoness. I would much rather hit them with a rhino squad and then have the cannoness assault to finish off the remnants. (146 for the cannoness I run, 209 for the rino squad) vs (80 for the immolator with armor and promethium 80 for the cannoness that is useless after she uses her litanies and one shot flamer and 115 for the squad)

Thats
355pts of useful stuff that is hard to kill and is useful against all opponents vs 275 pts of a one trick pony that needs ALOT of Luck to get good positioning and is only good in a rare case

If you run:
1. a dominion squad WITHOUT a VSS and only go with 3 flamers and 1 bolter,
2. include a Palatine with only Litanies and the Book instead of a Canoness to ride in the immolator with them,

then it is not that big a point sink. Yes it is a one trick pony and yes the immolator probably won't be able to use its flamer the same turn the squad unloads, but in my experience it is the perfect tool for decimating larger MEQ squads. Perhaps I've just been lucky but I've always been able to use my other two immolators has cover for this unit and I've always found it a useful unit in every game (well, except for that game when I rolled 22 dice against a squad of Bezerkers but didn't get a single 4, 5, or 6).

randyc9999 wrote:

frgsinwntr wrote:yea... it is def theory hammer since your never going to be able to position the squad and the immolator to hit well at the same time. If you want the 5-6 flamers in a squad to all hit to make max use of DG then the immolator that dropped them off isn't hitting the squad.

Also this is a big waste of a cannoness. I would much rather hit them with a rhino squad and then have the cannoness assault to finish off the remnants. (146 for the cannoness I run, 209 for the rino squad) vs (80 for the immolator with armor and promethium 80 for the cannoness that is useless after she uses her litanies and one shot flamer and 115 for the squad)

Thats
355pts of useful stuff that is hard to kill and is useful against all opponents vs 275 pts of a one trick pony that needs ALOT of Luck to get good positioning and is only good in a rare case

If you run:
1. a dominion squad WITHOUT a VSS and only go with 3 flamers and 1 bolter,
2. include a Palatine with only Litanies and the Book instead of a Canoness to ride in the immolator with them,

then it is not that big a point sink. Yes it is a one trick pony and yes the immolator probably won't be able to use its flamer the same turn the squad unloads, but in my experience it is the perfect tool for decimating larger MEQ squads. Perhaps I've just been lucky but I've always been able to use my other two immolators has cover for this unit and I've always found it a useful unit in every game (well, except for that game when I rolled 22 dice against a squad of Bezerkers but didn't get a single 4, 5, or 6).

yea....
1) take a regular sisters squad with a Heavy flamer, flamer and combi flamer instead... if you want 3 flamers
2) Palatine? wtf? why would you not take the cannoness ever? 1 extra faith for 10 pts an extra wound and a whole bunch of other goodies....

Stelek wrote:Immolators destroy marines.

I am not sure who is actually playing Sisters currently, but man foot or mech Sisters have always been my favorite army (right above the Dark Eldar and Legion of the Damned).

They aren't unbeatable by any means, but they are...incredibly powerful even run poorly.

I agree. They are a very fun army to play as. Very strong... but if the player manages faith poorly or rushes forwards to meat the enemy assault units they are going to lose.

I've always been a fan of mixed. 2 squads of 12ish sisters deployed on foot loaded out with stormbolters and 2-3 mounted regular squads, 2 seraphim and the rest on retributors and exorcists has served me well in 4th edition. Though i've yet to try it in 5th 2 sisters squads to hold objectives while the rest of the army ventures out or holds as needed means you can react to any force and make most enemies react to you. Plus 12 sisters w/faith points isn't easy to move off an objective. Just my 2 cents.