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Back around one year ago there was a lot of speculation Space Marines would get hit with the nerf bat as happened to the Dark Angels. Now that a lot of information/rumors are forthcoming in regards to the new Space Marine codex just the opposite sounds like it will happen. I feel certain that if Jervis Johnson could still have his way Space Marines would get hit with the nerf bat and I do not mean that in a bad way at all. What I am wondering is what caused the GW powers to be to apparently change horses midstream. My gut feeling is that the top brass never intended to ever hit Space Marines with a nerf bat as the almighty dollar is the bottom line after all.

The thing about the speculation about marines getting nerfed back then was due to everything else getting nerfed. And things weren't really getting 'nerfed' more like toned down so they could just spiral up the crazy crap they can put into a codex and make it seem awesome. Now that many lists have been toned down and SMs are getting toned up they are probably going to be either very good or on par.

Have we seen point costs on new marines yet? Do you know they weren't hit with the bat?

The whining and complaining happens every time they release a new Sm codex. Then after a couple other codices are released and a few faq updates, everyone forgets about SMs until the next time the codex is set to be released. In other words this is nothing new and the hype will go away after the next few things come on line.

So my advice is to just let it go and not worry about it. Everything will be ok again and you'll forget all about any "issues" you had with the SM codex being too powerful.

I can tell you without a doubt Space Marines will get their cake and can eat it too. Point costs will be comparable to what you see now. Its only fair... eldar, Tyranids, Tau and Orks all got great rules. Its a real shame to listen to some eldar players whine about the falcon nerf - we all knew it would happen - and eldar is still an awesome codex.

Sometimes it is amusing to read people ranting about Space Marines then later saying it was in good fun.

As good as Space Marines will be I wonder how many veteran tourney players will field them seeing the stigma.

G

You honestly cannot equate anything that occurred in the past to what is about to occur in the future. It doesn't make sense. Sure it has happened like this before in the past but this could be the one time they step way out of line with something. I'm not saying they are going too or already have.

But if the new SMs are better than CSMs then my chaos marines will be proxies and enjoying the hell out of stomping people just like all those damned loyalists.

A full 10 man squad of marines in the dex is 10% more expensive than it was (but includes a free flamer and multi-melta, heavy bolter or missile launcher). Overall, slightly cheaper. OK, so you have to take the 10 men to get access to special or heavy weapons (bye bye 6 man las-plas), and there's wasted pts if you if you take either/or (my squads ted to take a heavy or a special) - however, with combat squads as well, it's not so bad.

I don't think the marines have been nerfed at all. Buffed, certainly. The chapters that don't necessarily follow codex:Astartes to the letter have been restricted, but there are supposed to be more FAQs coming out for marines when th codex is released (saying who, if any, get access to what new stuff, and how ).

Chromedog - Don't forget that the cost of the 10-man marine squad is increased by the amount that the Veteran sergeant upgrade costs for SMs, which they ALSO get, on top of the heavy/special weapons.

Meaning the flamer, and missile/multi-melta/heavy bolter ARE free.

If the rumours turn out to be true.

They often are.

I don't see anything that indicates marines are getting better as a codex. I see better options than what people currently use, but I don't see anything better than the power tools they are most likely losing:
All infiltrate
6 devastator squads
6 man las/plas (arguably out-dated in 5th)
11 apothecaries
LD10 for the entire army
24" infiltrating fear of the darkness
6 venerable dread w/drop-pod
Twin fury of the ancients librarian (arguably out-dated in 5th)
9 assault cannon speeders
2 assault cannon per termies

I mean, great you've got a landraider with good flamers stuck on either side of it. Or space marines that can assault after deepstriking close enough to the enemy to risk a bad scatter and lose the whole squad. Termies with 3+ inv save and combat tactics sound pretty good though.

Typeline wrote:You honestly cannot equate anything that occurred in the past to what is about to occur in the future. It doesn't make sense. Sure it has happened like this before in the past but this could be the one time they step way out of line with something. I'm not saying they are going too or already have.

But if the new SMs are better than CSMs then my chaos marines will be proxies and enjoying the hell out of stomping people just like all those damned loyalists.

Seriously, why do you think we study history? Those who do not study the past are doomed to repeat it. In this case it's GW and they actually have a buisness model in place that causes them to continuously repeat this cycle. It only stands to reason that this time will just be a repeat of the same old cycle that has been going on for 25 years. Precedence in this case does matter.

speculation of anykind is a two edged sword. you can cut yourself with either edge.

In otherwords, right or wrong, someone gets hurt from it..

Typeline wrote:
You honestly cannot equate anything that occurred in the past to what is about to occur in the future. It doesn't make sense. Sure it has happened like this before in the past but this could be the one time they step way out of line with something. I'm not saying they are going too or already have.

Nothing could be further from the truth. The past has a big impact on the future. Not sure what you meant really.

G

16 pnt a marien is oke

Moz wrote:I don't see anything that indicates marines are getting better as a codex. I see better options than what people currently use, but I don't see anything better than the power tools they are most likely losing:
All infiltrate
6 devastator squads
6 man las/plas (arguably out-dated in 5th)
11 apothecaries
LD10 for the entire army
24" infiltrating fear of the darkness
6 venerable dread w/drop-pod
Twin fury of the ancients librarian (arguably out-dated in 5th)
9 assault cannon speeders
2 assault cannon per termies

I mean, great you've got a landraider with good flamers stuck on either side of it. Or space marines that can assault after deepstriking close enough to the enemy to risk a bad scatter and lose the whole squad. Termies with 3+ inv save and combat tactics sound pretty good though.

I'd add Whirlwind minefields and Drop Podding Tigurius FotD to the list, too...

Not that you see many people playing a full Whirlie minefield list, but damn they're vicious in game, even if they're a complete pain in the ass to play with or against.

Sure, the list is going to be strong, all of the recent lists have been at least good, but I'm just not seeing anything game-breaking. Salamander flamer/melta spam is going to be good, and the Redeemer with the new PotMS is going to be good. Sternguard are nice, but expensive and reliant on transport. Vanguard are either very risky or require aid from a scout squad to work best.

But honestly, nothing in the new 'dex looks half as good as Tiggy with Fear of the Darkness.

My understanding from reliable sources is 17 point marines.

Wasnt the codex at LA GD? someone had to see it?

Darkness wrote:My understanding from reliable sources is 17 point marines.

Wasnt the codex at LA GD? someone had to see it?

Yeah, sorry I didn't think to look at the basic point cost of a marine.

Green Blow Fly wrote:Back around one year ago there was a lot of speculation Space Marines would get hit with the nerf bat as happened to the Dark Angels. Now that a lot of information/rumors are forthcoming in regards to the new Space Marine codex just the opposite sounds like it will happen. I feel certain that if Jervis Johnson could still have his way Space Marines would get hit with the nerf bat and I do not mean that in a bad way at all. What I am wondering is what caused the GW powers to be to apparently change horses midstream. My gut feeling is that the top brass never intended to ever hit Space Marines with a nerf bat as the almighty dollar is the bottom line after all.

The thing is, for all the toys and tricks the new marines have all the things that were supposed to be nerfed in the new codex *are* nerfed in the new codex, in line with what they did with BA/DA. The squad sizes are now rigid along with the ability to take heavy/special weapons. Castellian minefields are gone as are the current broken psychic powers and the ability to take most vet skills.

What did change was that they gave them all sorts of new interesting options and toys to make up for it, that the BA/DAs aren't going to get.


So I think the ability to play 'dirty' marines as you can now has indeed been nerfed. But there are all sorts of new dirty tricks to try out. Only time will tell whether the new dirty tricks are worse than the old dirty tricks.

But I can tell you that after reading the new codex a bit I'm more interested in facing these new marine armies compared to the current ones just because I think marines will now fight in a more distinct way.

yakface wrote:What did change was that they gave them all sorts of new interesting options and toys in order to sell the new model kits, that the BA/DAs aren't going to get.

Sorry Yak, just had to edit the bit above to make it fit with reality.


Come to think of it though, wouldn't they want DA and BA players to buy the new stuff as well? Pretty good case for an update if you ask me.

Updated Codex = Shiny new model for DA/BA players to buy!!

BYE

Come on HBMC, that's the way it's always been.

Personally I believe the balance bat hit the marine codex, and the nerf bat hit the game system as far as all marines place in it.

A true Codex Astartes.

For better (Space Marines) or worse (Dark Angels).

I think the BA are fine now but are a little...one sided, and 'obvious'. Same with the DA, who I think can make semi-competitive lists but in a year when everyone is pounding out 60 shots a turn the Termies in a DA army will be in a far far better place.

Meh.

Yak there is something I need to get off my chest and I don't mean to come across as rude... I am a real live wire why are people so insane? G

Green Blow Fly wrote:Yak there is something I need to get off my chest and I don't mean to come across as rude... I am a real live wire why are people so insane? G

What insanity are you speaking of?

(Feel free to PM me if you'd like instead).

yakface wrote:What insanity are you speaking of?

Probably me.

I've never really considered myself insane though... but I guess that's kinda the point.

Either that or Bloater thinks that anyone with a differing opinion to his altruistic, happy-land, 'let's all be friends', Beef-esque point of view is 'insane'.

Yeah ok I'll stop now.

(/ )

BYE

I meant inane. I am having some growing pains learning how to use my touch screen activated keypad on my new cell phone when posting in the evenings. G

'I am a real live wire' was a reference to the song Psycho Killer' by the Talking Heads. G

Green Blow Fly wrote:I meant inane. I am having some growing pains learning how to use my touch screen activated keypad on my new cell phone when posting in the evenings. G

Oh! Right. Sorry. Inane. You must've been talking about Jonny Boy then.

Boy do I feel stupid.



BYE

H.M.B.C. you are far from stupid. That is a term I would use to describe Stelek.

Anyways now that I am on a keyboard I have to say I found the term 'dirty Marines' a total LOL + ROFLMAO experience. This is a very dirty world so get used to it. G