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Hi there, I mostly play fantasy but I dabble in 40k now and then.

As I'm re-learning the rules (and learning the new 5E ones) anyway, I'm starting a new army- the eponymous CSM.

I'm not seeing specific rules anymore for the subgroups like World Eaters or the Thousand Suns, and summoned demons in general appear to have been reduced to one statline for GDs, and one for everything else, so it's feeling a lot more "vanilla" than the last time I checked them out, which seems strange to have gone away, since I've heard the Imperials get rules for creating their own specialized Marine chapters. Am I missing something, or have my 'nids just spoiled me for variety?

More to the point, I've searched through the last couple pages of the forum and haven't seen this addressed: As a newcomer to the army, relatively unfamiliar with 40k (especially 5E), what should I know to avoid, and what should I be sure to pick up?

yes the chaos marines are more vanilla and that still hurts
avoid possesed to much points for being radom avoid defiler
dreads alot of people will tell you to avoid dreads but they can work
the cult marines are all good depending on how you use them
please dont run a lash list there are way to many of them

Obliterators are a must have. Don't take basic CSMs, they aren't as good as the cultists. Dreads suck, Chosen suck, Havocs suck, possessed suck, Lords suck, all the special characters suck barring a few exceptions but still stick to Sorcs or DPs. The codex was really cut down.

Stelek wrote out a tactica article for CSMs that is pretty good, although I feel he is underestimating Sorcerers. I use them as Lash batteries.

I'd say in 5th edition, the best troops choice in the codex is a pretty solid tie between Plague Marines and Noise Marines. Lashes are good on DPs or Sorcs. Obliterators are a must, you'll either be running them and winning or not running them and struggling with your anti-tank with vehicles that get one shotted off the board pretty easily.

Pyromaniac wrote:yes the chaos marines are more vanilla and that still hurts
avoid possesed to much points for being radom avoid defiler
dreads alot of people will tell you to avoid dreads but they can work
the cult marines are all good depending on how you use them
please dont run a lash list there are way to many of them

The reason there are so many lash lists is that Lash is the last good/competitive psychic power left to CSMs. And all the good HQs either must have (sorcerers) or can have (DPs) psychic powers. And if your running a DP he better have powers. I forgot to mention defilers sucking too. Don't run CSM vehicles unless they are rhinos.

"Suck" is such a harsh term. Most of those units can still be used effectively, I'd think. Squads that can infiltrate and have lots of special weapons can be quite useful, especially with outflank. Havocs have their place, and often have more bodies to suck up wounds than Obliterators do. Basic CSMs aren't as good as the cultists, but are cheaper, and are more versatile than their Loyalist counterparts (what SMurf wouldn't love to have bp, ccw, and bolter?).

Just because tanks aren't as tough as say Eldar skimmers doesn't mean they suck and can't be used - in a heavy mech list taking lots of vehicles can be beneficial. As always, everything counts in large amounts. The problem with Lords is that for the points cost, Princes are much deadlier, and not as easy to kill - however, they can't hide in squads like Lords can, and can be shot much easier.

As for the only good psychic power, I'll agree that it's maybe the only "broken" power, but not the only good one. Warptime and Wind of Chaos definitely have their place. Also, if you're short on points, a simple winged prince is still a nasty problem for a lot of armies and can't simply be ignored, yet isn't a large investment of points.

I agree that dreads and possessed, as well as spawn and to a lesser extent lesser daemons, are probably the most difficult units to use and probably not worth their points, but they have their places in a fun army. Same goes for most of the special characters.

The current Codex: Chaos Marines is just a lot closer to the 3E Rulebook list, and follows a WFB-like design split between Daemons, Mortals, and Beasts. In terms of Legions, they're just as varied as the Eldar Craftworlds, except Chaos can still do more specialized things while jumping through fewer hoops along the way.

Bottom line: CSM is a solid book, and you can make some very solid armies with it. It's just no longer brokenly good, and you'll need to let go of some preconceived notions about what a CSM army must look like to have more fun with what CSM army could look like.

Oh, yeah, in terms of what to take, I like Daemon Princes for HQs, along with Plague Marines and Noise Marines for Troops. Basic CSM aren't bad as a budget pick, and Mech Berzerkers should do fine in a vehicle heavy list. Chosen & Termies are strong contenders as Elites picks, as are Raptors and Havocs, respectively. Dreads are nicely thematic. Daemons are just cheap non-shooting CSM that Deep Strike - I don't see any problem with them.

I see the strength of Chaos in its Cult Troops as they are way better than basic CSM and you pack in 6-9 oblits and you got enough anti-tank/infantry to hold off hordes.

Lash is more of a defensive/utility power than offensive as most of the time I see it to bunch squads up or to move them out of cover or away from possible assaults. Warptime does have its merits along with wind of chaos.

your nids have spoiled you for veriety

though i think you still can use the old leigon rules

Pick a Cult Legion and start from it. E.g., pick Noise Marines as your main troops. Add heavy support units and an HQ. This easily gives you a 1000 pts army, ready to start play testing.

OK here are two questions.. er three questions


1 can chosen get termi armor?

2 can all chosen still choose wargear?

3 does the kai gun still exist?

If it does, and this is what my friend would do against my beautiful SMs, pack about 10 chosen with termi armor and kai guns at heavy 2 str6 ap3.... death, destruction, and carnage is what became of my SMs with them being able to move and shoot, mixed with a 4x4 board with never enough cover... i lost an entirer 1850 points worth of army cause I left my las and plas in the cupboard.

I believe the answer to all of those is no. But you could do instead is get 10 Terminators with combi-plasmas.

So basically, this is another army where "functional" doesn't include "fun." Here I was looking forward to modeling up some possessed, and the defiler just plain looks cool. *mutters* Guess I need to decide whether I want to enjoy building the army, or using it...

Dustmonger wrote:So basically, this is another army where "functional" doesn't include "fun." Here I was looking forward to modeling up some possessed, and the defiler just plain looks cool. *mutters* Guess I need to decide whether I want to enjoy building the army, or using it...

I really wouldn't bother with the possessed if you want something competitive. They're just too many points for something way too random. Even if you could roll for their ability before you deployed them I don't know if I'd use them at the current points cost.

As for the defiler it's certainly not the best (it is somewhere between a shooting platform and a hand to hand monster and not particularly good at either job) but it is better than the possesed. If you can make your list sufficiently target rich (lots of other vehicles and big stuff) then I would think that you could get decent use out of them but it is tricky.

Edit: Also defilers compete for heavy support slots with obliterators and that is usually a losing battle.

I would also recommend never ever using dreadnoughts, the fire frenzy rule makes them completely unplayable. I don't remember seeing many dreadnoughts in 3rd ed. Chaos lists when fire frenzy was a much milder drawback so I'm not sure why they felt the need to make it even worse.

Possessed and Dreadnoughts aren't any more random than anything else in the game. As players with access to the rules, we know what they'll do in which situations, and thus we can plan accordingly.

Dreadnoughts are a great idea, particularly if you're short on points and have Elite spots otherwise un-occupied. They can run and launch smoke at the same time, have the ability to address enemies with twice their usual firepower, and aren't affected by the No Retreat! rule.

Same with Defilers: advance towards the enemy, and once within 15" use Fleet to charge in and stomp your enemies in close combat. Daemonic Possession makes them ludicrously tough, while Smoke Launchers and extra close combat weapons can allow the beast to close even more quickly and safely.

Nurglitch: I don't know that I'd classify Defilers as "ludicrously tough" even when paired with possession. While ignoring stunned and shaken results is great, AV12 is still middling, and easily penetrated by any serious AT fire. IMO, their "kill me" factor combined with AV12 makes Dreads and Defilers a non-starter in any army which is not heavily mechanized.

Nurglitch wrote:Possessed and Dreadnoughts aren't any more random than anything else in the game.

They are by definition more random, in that they have an additional die roll (ability roll, crazed roll) that "anything else in the game" does not.

keezus:

Yeah, AV12 ain't great, particularly with Dreadnoughts where they can, if you position them poorly, end up mooning the enemy. But it goes quite nicely with a cover save, either from smoke grenades, intervening Rhinos, or buildings. Not to mention that AT fire hitting them is AT fire that isn't going towards your troops and their transports.

Dreadnoughts in particular work well for flooding the board with vehicle targets, because they're an Elites slot. Of course, if they're going to be some of the only vehicles in the army, then that's going to be a problem, but that's a problem for any unit taken in isolation.

Democratus:

That extra roll doesn't make them any more random. It's not as if you don't know the combinations that you might work with for Possessed, or the possible actions of a Dreadnought. It's just like any other unit in the game: you don't know what the dice are going to roll, but you can plan for what they might roll and act accordingly.

If I want to fire on an enemy across the board with an imperial dreadnought, it just happens. I then roll to hit and go with the results.

If I want to do the same with a chaos dread, it must roll a dice to see if it can even happen. Only with the correct result on the 'crazed' roll am I allowed to continue and roll to hit.

This is more random, as there is an additional random element (dice roll) for the chaos dread than the non-chaos dread. QED

If I have unit A), which will never shoot my own guys, or unit B), which might, on a random die roll, unit B fits most folks’ definition of “more random”.

John Hwang and many of the others are right that there is still a decent number of viable units. There are a few stinkers (possessed and spawn, notably), and the codex as a whole (aside from Lash) has been de-cheesed from the last one, but overall it’s certainly a playable list, though can struggle against certain opponents.

As for some more opinions on different units…

HQ: Daemon Princes are good with wings, and some kind of psychic power. Sorcerers with Lash (or warp time or wind of chaos, especially if you give them a bike. Greater Daemons are good as long as you have a way to get an aspiring champion nice and close. Lords are generally the weakest option, but can be okay if you give them a mobility upgrade (flight or preferably a bike for the T5) and some way to wound more reliably. Which means either no mark and take the S5 daemon weapon, or Lightning Claws (which combo well with mark of khorne).

Elites: Chosen are good, as they can take lots of special weapons and can infiltrate. In 7th this means that they can also Outflank WITH a Rhino, driving on from a side table edge for a nice rapidfire surprise. Terminators are cheap and good. They can take 5pt combi-weapons too. You can take disposable squads as small as 3 (I like 120pts with one chainfist, one heavy flamer, and two combi-plasma), or big durable squads of up to 10. Nice.

Troops: Noise Marines are good. Plague Marines are good (were REALLY good before 7th made Feel No Pain not work against AP1 and AP2 weapons). Thousand Sons are okay; 4+ invulnerable and AP3 bolters can be nasty, but they’re expensive. Berserkers are great if they can get the charge. Four WS5 S5 I5 attacks per model is nasty. Regular CSMs aren’t outstanding, but are cheap and flexible. Every model coming standard with bolt pistol, CCW, bolter, frag and krak grenades is nice. I use them with the Icon of Chaos Glory for morale re-rolls and to summon daemons, and as teleport homers for my termies (and oblits if I decide to deep strike them for some reason). Lesser daemons are okay. You want big squads of at least 8- maybe more like 10-12. They have no anti-vehicle capacity, but can throw a lot of S4 attacks on the turn they arrive, and can really add weight of attacks where you need it as long as you have a good number of icons in your army.

Fast: Raptors are very good for the points.

Heavy: Oblits are great, primarily due to their flexibility and their ability to move and fire without penalty. Being able to fire lascannons or plasmacannons (the latter in combination with Lash for extra nastiness), or twin-linked plasmaguns or meltaguns at short range gives them great utility, and better anti-tank capabilities than pretty much anything else in the army. NON-lascannon Predators are good for the points, but lack the anti-tank firepower the oblits bring. Vindicators, particularly with Possession, are quite good. Defilers are betrayed by their Av12 and huge profile which makes it almost impossible for them to get Obscured and earn a 4+ cover save. Still, if used in concert with several other vehicles (Vindicators, for example), they can survive and do some good damage.

Democratus:

Actually, first you have to check to see whether you have a line of sight, and then you have to check for range, and then you get to roll to hit.

If you want to do the same with a Chaos Dreadnought as with an Imperial Dreadnought, then you go through the same motions becaused Crazed is rolled for at the beginning of the turn. It's not like you roll an extra die when you shoot and pick the lowest result, thus making the possible hits less likely and thus more random. The Chaos Dreadnought either shoots like normal or does not.

If you're positioning it like an Imperial Dreadnought, then of course it'll seem more random because it won't be in a position to take advantage of Crazed!

I'm sorry are you arguing that chaos dreadnoughts are no more random then imperial troops?

*You do in fact, have to roll, to see what the chaos dreadnought is going to do.

*Indeed, that roll may result in the chaos dreanought attacking his own troops.

How is that less random again?

Mannahnin wrote:Plague Marines are good (were REALLY good before 7th made Feel No Pain not work against AP1 and AP2 weapons).

So 6th is going to go back to 4th, and 7th will go back to 5th? Hoo, boy!

But yeah, I generally agree with your assessment.

Except I don't like TS for 5E. AP3 and Sv4+??? So what? The enemy will generally take their Sv4+ Cover Saves and/or the TS will generally have 4+ cover saves. So they're paying for AP and Sv++ that they don't really need. I think I'd rather have ordinary CSM and/or Lesser Daemons for the numbers.

jfrazell:

I've explained why rolling for Crazed! doesn't make a Chaos Dreadnought random. It's not random if you know what you're going to get, regardless of the likelihood of any possible result. If that roll results in the Dreadnought attacking its own comrades, then that's a fault of the player badly positioning it. You knew it could happen. It's not like the model spontaneously combusts on occasion.

I find this attitude quite bizarre. Players that wouldn't bat an eyelash rolling buckets of dice not knowing whether an attack will hit or miss, but roll a dice to see if you shoot the enemy twice as much or close half a turn faster and it's "Ooooooh, random!".

I mean, sure, there's a chart you have to roll on and you don't know which result is going to come up. That's pretty random if you squint, I suppose. If there was a chart you have to roll on and you don't know if a result is going to come up, then I'd agree.

But since you know the results in advance, if not the specific result, you can plan for it. That's not random; that's predictable.

If by predictable you mean a randomized chance using dice, then I would agree with you.

Agreed risk: Use of chaos dreads requires an additional risk that available shooting/charging options are unavailable to you.

Agreed risk: Unlike Imperial dreads, chaos dreads may in fact attack your own units if they are positioned in a similar manner.

Option Choice: accept the more limited viability of the dreads based on coolness or other efficacies or choose not to utilize a dreadnought choice.

I think that nurglitch is saying that while yes its random, the player can easily do things that will minimize the bad effects, but maximize the good ones.

And dust monger... there is nothing funnier than watching 5+ tonnes of cursed metal with a dubiously cognizant pilot, screaming at the top of its Mr. Roboto voice shooting at anything that moves, and some things that don't like... buildings, plants, and innocent garden gnomes

Edit: Rereading that it does sound very hostile. Sorry about that Nurglitch. Let me rephrase. (I'm just gonna hide it for now, as I don't believe in full censorship.)

This question comes up here quite a bit for some reason. But when it does there are usually two camps, one who is trying to talk about the merits of the competitive worthy lists and the other is trying to tell you that not all models should be rated by their worthyness in trounies. They are saying that those units, while not as good as others have their place in fun and modeling and can still be useful on the table.

Nurglitch just happens to be the fastest and loudest one in the modeling/fun/still useful camp. While I'm more of the member of the tournament advocater's scene.

Edit2: while I advocate for competitive lists I don't actually play in tournaments, my gaming group is just really cut throat. I do run a Chaos Dread from time to time. Never had a fire frenzy, had a few forced assaults, but it turned out ok. I'd rather it had been able to fire it's weapons though. It has been kind of random and I do get nervous when I roll that crazed die. I've never run possessed but we have someone in our group who does. They usually end up being ineffective though as they are kind of wonky with their ability. It happens after you place them. They would be miles better if you could roll for the ability before placement, even more miles better if they were cheaper and lightyears better if you could purchase their now random abilities. But I am going to be buying a few boxes of them just because the models are so awesome. I'll be using them for Chosen and the wings for Sorcs but still... lovely models.

Careful there, Typeline. That sounded a lot like a personal attack.

Typeline wrote:

Spoiler:

Anytime anyone asks any questions about CSM Nurglitch will jump into the fray and advocate for the worst units in the codex as if they are worth their weight in gold on the table.

Don't believe him they aren't really good. They are random as hell and will end up getting you a lose in a tourney, but I find mine fun in casual games.

I'm liking him, to be honest. Fantasy, one of my primary armies is Tzeentch daemons. I was playing them in (Fantasy) 5E when they were Khorne and Nurgle's embarrassing little brother, and in 6E before Storrm of Chaos brought us Tzeentch's Flying Circus. Now I pull them out, and everyone groans and accuses me of only playing them because they're overpowered. Underpowered/overpowered is a matter of opinion, and is subject to change with every FAQ, much less every codex/edition. Of course, being underestimated is an advantage all its own...

So, I'm eagerly absorbing all of the opinions and tactics being discussed, now that things have moved past the vaguaries of "Unit X sucks, don't take them!"

Typeline:

My current favourite army is Chaos Space Marines and I've found that around these parts (i.e.: Dakka Dakka) that the advice on these boards concerning tactics and strategy tends to be bad. So I put my oar in and give a dissenting opinion. Indeed, I am of the opinion that there are no bad units in the Chaos Space Marine army, and that any unit can be put to good use (even great use if you're a good player).

That's not to say that some units are somewhat opaque in their strategic use, in what combination of units they will perform best, and tactically challenging to handle, but the fact that these units can be 'unlocked' by players is, for me, one of the attractions of 4th and 5th edition 40k, that the game rewards a problem-solving approach.

Still, since you've given such a compelling argument to the contrary, and clearly shown the evidence to support your conclusions, I guess I should stop trying to encourage audacity and ingenuity, throw my army away, and invest in nine Obliterators, two Daemon Princes, and six squads of Noise Marines.

I guess I should, but I like winning as much as I like playing a fun game.