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hey I recently took a look at the new chaos marines dex , and it inspired me to get my old chaos army back into a functional army. The plan is to use a firebase of various cult troops with a squad of oblits for antitank, and a pair of winged lash princes to pull enemy squads into the killzone or push away pesky assault squads. But im wondering what to put in my other two HS slots. I know i want to use vehicles for them, and ive got it down to vindicators or defilers (mainly because i like pie). And was wondering which of the two would be best for the style of play i want to use. Any advice is much appreciated.

Definately Defiler, because then you have massive shooting power and close combat nastiness.

I second the use of Defilers.

On the other hand, vindies are smaller (and so easier to get into cover), tougher to kill by shooting and pack a bigger punch with their pie plates.

I thought that the defilers are better.Vindies are popular among SM armies,but maybe the most obivious reason is ... they cannot take defilers.

If a vindicator suffered a [weapon destroyed],it is nothing.If a defiler suffered a [weapon destroyed],it is ...still a dreadnought.

Defilers. Bigger=scarier=fire magnet, which protects your troops. I'd say to magnetize the weapons to get the most out of them.

How about neither? They are both less effective than another squad of oblits. If I had to choose one of the two bad choices, I would pick the vindi and give it demonic possession.

Darrian makes the obvious point that Oblits are pretty much the superior choice in HS, but I don't think you're totally crippling yourself by trying out the pie plates. Here are my two best suggestions while using pie.

Option 1: Two vindicators. Av13 is much superior to AV12, and they are VASTLY easier to get 4+ cover for, given that half of the model needs to be completely hidden for a vehicle to get a save. So it’s almost impossible to get cover for a defiler unless it’s behind a big building.

Option 2: A second squad of oblits and a single vindicator hiding as best it can, ready to move out and pounce once the enemy gets close.

I don’t think I’d take a defiler unless I was taking two vindicators or two more defilers AS WELL, plus Rhinos, plus daemon princes, to really divide up my opponent’s antitank firepower.

Oh, and Possession is indeed a great upgrade for vindicators.

I'd have to second Manny on all the points raised. In essence vindis have superior ordnance and armor. A defiler looks cool, but armor 12 is mediocre. Run it down the road and it wastes the ordnance weapon.

I will agree that the obliterators are likely the supperior choice, however, if you're really wanting to run either the Defiler or Vindicator I wouldn't say that either of them are "bad". Personally, I own some number of all three of the above and use them all in various combinations. Which one(s) I use just depends on what the rest of the army list looks like.

I would say run the defiler if your army has other semi-hard targets in it as their AV 12 is just not going to cut it if they're the only vehicles in your army. Their large profile makes it very hard to get a cover save so they have a tendancy to die quickly. I do, however, like their ability to fleet of foot and run with a pack of rhino mounted squads. When I do use defilers that is how I use them, running with lots of rhinoes.

Otherwise I think I would run the vindicators. Armor value 13 combined with a smaller profile makes them much more resilient. Throw in Demonic Possession and you've really got a tough nut to crack. Also, the extra point of AP on the template will occasionally come in handy.

Both of the above will work nicely with the lash princes (but so do the obliterators).

The Defiler is superior in combat to both the Vindicator and to a squad of Obliterators. It also has a longer ranged weapon than the Vindicator, and costs about two thirds as much as a full squad of Obliterators (same with the Vindicator, after the addition of Daemonic Possession). Another advantage of the Defiler over the Vindicator is, as mentioned, that the Defiler has many more weapons to lose before it is disarmed, and that means it can take many more glancing hits before it is wrecked (disarmed and immobilized).

In particular, the Defiler, given its close combat ability, can advance more successfully than either Obliterators or Vindicators. Pop smoke, charge into close combat, win close combat, and then have cover to protect you until either another charge or a Battlecannon salvo.

If you have more vehicles as part of your troop choices, then I think you should take the Vindicators. If you have fewer vehicles, then I think you should take the Defiler, since you can protect it in combat with a near 18" assault under smoke. As for Obliterators? You're just going to get eaten by the opposing AP2 weapons such as Plasma Cannons.

Nurglitch wrote:

In particular, the Defiler, given its close combat ability, can advance more successfully than either Obliterators or Vindicators. Pop smoke, charge into close combat, win close combat, and then have cover to protect you until either another charge or a Battlecannon salvo.

A couple of thoughts on this.

1. I, for the most part, agree with this. I like to equip mine with the full allotment of close combat weapons for the full 5 attacks. This makes your defiler very resilient to weapon destroyed results. Unlike a dreadnought it is hard to knock off the close combat weapon and thus neuter it in close combat. However...

2. A word of caution. Keep in mind that the defiler is weapon skill and initiative 3 (I may be wrong on initiative since I don't have my book in front of me). This may not seem like a big deal but it makes you very vulnerable in close combat to things such as dreadnoughts and wraithlords who will both hit you on 3+ in close combat and go first. It also means that you are very vulnerable in close combat to hidden powerfists. Weapon skill 3 means that they are usually hitting you on 3+ and with 5 attacks at WS 3 you are never going to do enough casualties to take out the hidden power fists before they swing.

And this is really my big gripe with the defiler. For 150 points you are getting something that just isn't all that good at anything that it does. Balistic Skill three means you can't count on your non-template weapons to do anything so you are pushed towards tooling it up for close combat. But then in close combat you have fairly sub-par stats in the areas that matter. Yes, you have a lot high strength attacks but what good do they do you if they don't hit or if you get killed before you have a chance to use them?

For 150 points I can either get a defiler that isn't all that good at anything (but admittedly looks really cool) or I can get 2 Obliterators who are very good at shooting. From a purely competitive standpoint I don't think there is much competition between the two with the sole exception being the type of army list that I mentioned in my post above.

Keep in mind though that if you are wanting to run the defiler just because you like the model, like the fluff, think it's cool, etc. Then go for it! The defiler certainly isn't "bad" there are just generally stronger choices in my opinion.

AV12 is too fragile for such a large model that will have a hard time finding cover.

I've found, using Chaos Dreadnoughts and Defilers, that you don't try to take units on alone with them, given the usual business with Power Fists. Instead, you throw them in there alongside a unit of troops who will add quantity to the quality of the Dreadnought Close Combat Weapons. A unit of Raptors is ideal for this because they can keep up with Defilers, and are fast enough to co-ordinate with Chaos Dreadnoughts, and still have a butt-load of S4 attacks.

So yeah, if you just throw them into combat without co-ordinating with the rest of your force then those 5 or 6 S10 Power Weapon attacks won't do much except on certain specialized targets (such as Obliterators...). But if you co-ordinate with your assault units, the Defiler is a great Heavy Support choice.

For the same price you can get better anti-tank firepower out of two Obliterators. Obliterators are also more vulnerable: a measly T4 W2 Sv2+/5+ means that they can be taken down by Lasgun fire, ripped up by Plasma Weapons, zapped by Lascannons, or blasted by Demolishers. A Predator Annihilator can eat a unit a turn.

That's one of the ridiculous weaknesses of taking two Daemon Princes and 3-9 Obliterators: The anti-tank weapons that are ideal for taking them down are ideal for mangling the rest of the Chaos Space Marine force, and they're vulnerable to anti-personal weapons as well.

In combat Obliterators are armed with Power Fists, and so get murdered by anything with a Power Weapon, Rending, or simply lots of attacks. And they're vulnerable to No Retreat!, which Defilers are not.

Whitedragon: It can make its own cover. Defilers have Smoke Launchers.

I suggest the Defilers, because:
1. Very cool model. *Lots* of possibilities
2. Unique to CSM. SM can't have Defilers.
3. HtH capable - Dread with Fleet, extra CCWs, and no Crazy.

Now Vindicators? Those belong in a Black Templars army!

you have 2 HS slots use a vindicator and a defiler.

i would mainly suggest vindicators cuz armor 13 isnt really easy to crack. but id take defilers over dreads

*waits for someone to suggest lash*

One note. If you're going to take defilers I'd strongly suggest using a derivation of the Soulgrinder mini. Its effectively WYSIWYG and oh, so choice.

JohnHwangDD:

Speaking of the most important considerations (i.e.: aesthetic considerations), if you're like me and have a dual-purpose SM/CSM army, then Vindicators are a good idea because you can use them in both versions of the army!

well you should be taking oblits, if you your really really REALLY dont want to then vindicators.

defilers will die on your first turn, almost guaranteed. they are scary but you cant hide 50% of a model that big, so it wont get its 4+ cover save, so it will get shot to peices by autocannon. in combat, with 4 DCC weapons they will cause 2.5 wound on something most of the time. that means that if they are in a possition to be tarpitted then it makes the model basically useless. it will probably get one shotted by a fist or MC in combat anyway, so its not that good.

a vindicators requires a lot more fire power to kill it, because on turn one it will have a 4+ cover save (because you put it behind terrain like a good little traitor marine). the shorter range on its gun is meaningless as most games critical events happen in a very small area. it also has the advantage of being AP2 so it can easily kill terminators and TMCs, something a battlecannon cannot. you can drive away from combat so you will never be tarpitted by a unit of guard or grots. finally, when given demonic possession, it comes in at 5pts cheaper than a defiler.

having said all that, 2 obliterators are better than both.

I'm actually building 2 separate armies that will coordinate.

Defiler is chaos only, and makes a great center piece in anygame. Yeah, your tau or SM buddy obliterates your entire army, but watching your giant crab-demon-beast scuttle around the field makes the game fun no matter what.

Vindicators are flat. They move up, they shoot. Repeat. Boring. They remind me of necron armies; no depth.

The world is ending. I agree with Nurglitch. He made sense. The end is near. Make your peace!