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I think that the new dex should have some sort of template that allows the user, not only to take special skills for certain squads, but allows for the creation of squads unique to the new chapter. Basically, it would be like chapter traits but limited to one squad. The squad would probably cost more points, but would provide A: cool new models, B: specialized squads that epitomize the traits of the chapter, and would make newly founded chapters better in every way.

Am I way too biased in my love of 3" ceramite armor?

Would this make marines way too good?

Or is this just a stupid fantasy, dreamed up by blah blah blah you get the picture.

Opinions. Please. .

I think its a good idea. When you look at how a lot of the more unique chapters were originally presented they almost always had some unique unit. Your rules would allow a player to have something as simple as extra sneeky assault veteran to spikey freakish mutation because of attempts to modify the geneseed.

My recommendation is to find and old White Dwarf article on the cursed founding chapters with some rules for them, they give examples of some interesting marines that might give you a starting point for some of the stranger possibilities.

Also look at Deathwatch, Sternguard, Vanguard for an idea of where you should be shooting for in terms of cost and capabilities. Look at the Exorcists and Reviler chapters as additional example of unique units.

i like it

Isn't that what Sternguard / Vanguard Veterans do, more-or-less?

But really, Marines are spoiled for choice, with BA, BT, DA, SW, CSM (w/ Chosen, Possessed, MoK, MoN, MoS, MoT) variants.

There comes a time at which every little tweak and option for the sake of options really isn't helping. We saw that with the Wargear / Armoury and I have the sense that your tweaks would head down the same road.

Also, being able to duplicate Death Company / whatever necessarily dilutes the point of having marines of different colors and spikiness.

i love this idea.
just a rough concept, but certain chapters specialize in infiltration right?

then why not a spin off of the tau steath suits?
a space marine holo-suit allowing him to camo. himself into surroundings, equipped with some form of bolt pistol acting as a short range sniper, easy to conceal and carry, but can fire it without drawing attention.

I'm of two minds when it comes to this. On one side, I like to have a customizable army. On the other side, I think one of the inherent flaws with the marines is supposed to be their inflexability to codex traditions.

In game terms, I think that anything like this would have to be done on a point based system. Aka, you buy "customizable marines" for whatever base price marines are and then you can give them extra abilities and equipment on a per model basis. Sort of like how you buy stuff for nids. In any case, this should probably be limited to one squad in the army so it doesn't get out of hand.

if they were to do it then it could be done like the mutatable genius in the old tyranid dex, that would work pretty well.

JohnHwangDD wrote:Isn't that what Sternguard / Vanguard Veterans do, more-or-less?

But really, Marines are spoiled for choice, with BA, BT, DA, SW, CSM (w/ Chosen, Possessed, MoK, MoN, MoS, MoT) variants.

There comes a time at which every little tweak and option for the sake of options really isn't helping. We saw that with the Wargear / Armoury and I have the sense that your tweaks would head down the same road.

Also, being able to duplicate Death Company / whatever necessarily dilutes the point of having marines of different colors and spikiness.

Its just another tool to represent the fact that lots of Space marines have a different sense of what veteran units should be like. It seems like this would be to represent chapters whose image of veterans are not Sternguard or Vanguard; potentially cursed foundings. This is not an attempt to replicate any pre-existing armies' elite choice but a way to build something equivalent in a couple of different ways to add flavor and provide an avenue for that individual flavor in a game.

The problem with analyzing the marines in the above way is that by approaching them as one large homogeneous armylist that has all these options in one list it ignores the inherent flaws each army list has to cope with. They're each variation on a theme. It might not be the best thing that they all exist, I think much could be consolidated into fewer books to allow the same options, but the simple economics are that space marines sell and that every new marine army economically shows an increase in the overall appeal.

There is a trade off to the different marine codices; each codex has such a generally narrow concept that its much more restrictive than other armies in different ways. One reason I believe GW doesn't update the DA and BA codex with the new stuff from the new codex is to preserve that narrow concepts self standing integrity. There would likely be a trade off to using this unit.

I see this playing out like a cross of possessed CSM options and the traits system of the 4th ed Marine Codex that applies only to this unit. Maybe where you specifically have 4 or 5 options where each gives a bonus but a downside as well. That would cut down on people min-maxing the unit.

I think it could totally work. You could choose a base structure that would let you know how your HQ was going to function. Give them both positives and negatives. That way you don't have a cookie cutter army list appearing all over. I think it would be very cool. SM are perfect for this with all of the different chapters that used to exist.

aka_mythos wrote:

JohnHwangDD wrote:Isn't that what Sternguard / Vanguard Veterans do, more-or-less?

Its just another tool to represent the fact that lots of Space marines have a different sense of what veteran units should be like.

The problem with analyzing the marines in the above way is that by approaching them as one large homogeneous armylist that has all these options in one list it ignores the inherent flaws each army list has to cope with. They're each variation on a theme.

There is a trade off to the different marine codices; each codex has such a generally narrow concept that its much more restrictive than other armies in different ways.

There would likely be a trade off to using this unit.

I see this playing out like a cross of possessed CSM options and the traits system of the 4th ed Marine Codex that applies only to this unit. Maybe where you specifically have 4 or 5 options where each gives a bonus but a downside as well. That would cut down on people min-maxing the unit.

When you start with the notion of special Veterans, there are only four major options to work with: Shooty, Fighty, Tough, and Fast. Sternguard & Chosen & MoS & MoT cover Shooty. BT & MoK are Fighty. Necrons & MoN are Tough. Vanguard & BA DC / HG are Fast.

I say force the player to get off the pot and just pick one. With nearly a dozen choices to pick from, the idea that this isn't possible is rather laugable when you consider how limited the non-MEQ options are by contrast.

If not, the question I ask is: What 4 or 5 options are you thinking of that these new mix-and-match Veterans would have that makes them unique, that doesn't tread heavily on any other MEQ "Veteran" alternative? As it is, we've got 2 or 3 very similar units in each category, and you want to add another (distinct, different) option to compete with the others in each category?