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Ok, so after a couple days writing, getting feedback, and re-writing the IG codex, I'm going to post it here, its in the thread attachment.

Inside this 49 page document is a collection of what I've seen IG players express as their wishes to see included in an IG coded re-write, and is without a doubt more ambitious than GW's release will be in terms of whats available in the codex (I included most Forgeworld units, except for Superheavies, and a couple *really* old units like the Rapier laser destroyer)

I tried to keep most of the doctrines available as unit upgrades in some form or another.

Anyway, let me know what you think!

EDIT: newest update.

Update!

I'd simplify Kill Points to only count the Command / Platoon Command squad - Infantry squads don't give up KPs. And half KPs? Please, no.

Cameoline, Carapace, and Cyber should be 10 pts, because you buy it for *every* squad in the Platoon, not squad by squad.

Advisors are kinda pricey. Battle Psyker is completely, totally unplayable at 100 pts - 100 pts is a Space Marine Librarian or Chaos Sorceror! Disciplined Mind isn't bad, tho.

Ogryns still kinda lack punch, tho the PW on the Sgt isn't terrible, aside from the points.

Battlefield Engineers is kinda cool. But probably abusable. I'd definitely take the 24" Minefield. Also, The points are way funky: Servitors aren't worth 15 pts. Try 10. And the Techpriest isn't 15 pts, either. Try 30-50 pts.

I'm pretty sure that making 3 flavors of RT-era Artillery available as Elites pretty much kills any other alternative being taken, especially with non-LOS guns.

BTW, why do your Storms "go to 11"? Are your fortifications only 1/12 scale?

And what's up with S3 Hellguns? How about S4 Hellguns, which would be actually useful in fanning down light vehicles and wounding things?

4 pt Guardsmen are too cheap, IMO.

OK, Doctrines - how are these costed? Can you simplify that to a flat +15 or +20 pts per squad? Also, can you simplify them to a single effect, rather than combining them, or forcing modeling of urban / jungle / forest / whatever?

Chimera is OK, but bumping the Turret guns above the model is undesirable. Maybe save the FW for Command Chimeras?

...

OK, this is just too much kitchen sink with every FW model added to the mix (I think). I gotta stop. If you can boil it down a bit, that would be great.

JohnHwangDD wrote:I'd simplify Kill Points to only count the Command / Platoon Command squad - Infantry squads don't give up KPs. And half KPs? Please, no.

The problem with the "kill the command squad" option is that its not hard to focus fire on 5 T3 W1 models and kill them, even if hidden, and then just sit back the rest of the game. the half KP thing was the fairest thing I could come up with, but it is messy, however I've yet to see another solution that I think is as equitable to both players and still keeps IG kill points below 18-20 in most games.

Cameoline, Carapace, and Cyber should be 10 pts, because you buy it for *every* squad in the Platoon, not squad by squad.

mmm good point.

Advisors are kinda pricey. Battle Psyker is completely, totally unplayable at 100 pts - 100 pts is a Space Marine Librarian or Chaos Sorceror!

I think he's a bit pricey too, however with him I'm trying to make it a very powerful, if physically weak model, basically having horrific pyschic powers at the expense of physical toughness. Any suggestions on how to make it worth its cost would be appreciated

Ogryns still kinda lack punch, tho the PW on the Sgt isn't terrible, aside from the points.

I'm hoping the base T5 and S6 make up for a lot, maybe give them Carapace armor?

Battlefield Engineers is kinda cool. But probably abusable. I'd definitely take the 24" Minefield.

its an 18sqr" minefield (unless I mis-wrote it, I'll double check), however I'm trying to make it a unit that basically adds a lot to the army without necessarily having to sit there and shoot the whole game, a unit that can give most of its benefit at the beginning and spend the rest of the time fixing stuff if it wants to.

Also, The points are way funky: Servitors aren't worth 15 pts. Try 10.

The tech servitors cost includes the ability to buy more terrain cover save upgrades and minefields (at least thats what I was trying to do)

And the Techpriest isn't 15 pts, either. Try 30-50 pts.

true, I'm thinking I want the unit to end up being roughly 85-100 points, but not quite sure exactly how to allocate that.

I'm pretty sure that making 3 flavors of RT-era Artillery available as Elites pretty much kills any other alternative being taken, especially with non-LOS guns.

Well, only 2 are non-LOS, and they are already available if your group allows you to use IA:5 rules. That said, I'm hoping that the Stormies, when not taken as Troops, are highly desireable for these slots, and would like the Ogryns to be as well. I think the ST's are there, but the Ogryns may need some work still. The Artillery and Rapier is also extremely vulnerable to pretty much any attack, and very static, which will cut down on its lifespan, making them a little less awesome than what one may initially think.

BTW, why do your Storms "go to 11"? Are your fortifications only 1/12 scale?

forgive me, I don't understand what you mean by this (need sleep)

And what's up with S3 Hellguns? How about S4 Hellguns, which would be actually useful in fanning down light vehicles and wounding things?

Basically I wanted to stay with something that was still a "lasgun" but with an equivalent wound output to an S4 weapon. Making them S4 Assault 2 18" would work too if its felt that its needed.

4 pt Guardsmen are too cheap, IMO.

Comparing their likely inflicted/suffered wounds, mobility and abilities to Dire Avengers, Chaos Marines, Space Marines (using the rules for the upcoming codex which include free weapons for the same or similar cost to the DA squads) and Orks (especially those amazingly cost efficient Shoota Boyz, which point for point outshoot and outfight CSM's), I found this to be about right. 5pts was still a bit much, 6 wayyyy too much.

OK, Doctrines - how are these costed? Can you simplify that to a flat +15 or +20 pts per squad?

Taking any increases the cost of an infantry squad by 20pts, and a heavy/special/command squad by 15 points.

Also, can you simplify them to a single effect, rather than combining them, or forcing modeling of urban / jungle / forest / whatever?

Thats only for one doctrine, which was based off the current Jungle Fighters. My problem with making it apply to any terrain is that it would need to be toned down, and I'd have to come up with a new name, I'll try and do that though to make it more universally useful.

Chimera is OK, but bumping the Turret guns above the model is undesirable. Maybe save the FW for Command Chimeras?

I figured that it wouldn't hurt to include an Autocannon option, its not a huge deal and it really shouldn't cost any more than a multilaser (extra shot versus slightly higher S and AP, of which the multilaser is the more versatile anti-infantry and anti-AV10 weapon)

OK, this is just too much kitchen sink with every FW model added to the mix (I think). I gotta stop. If you can boil it down a bit, that would be great.

What I'm thinking I'm going to do is condense the Chimera variant tanks to a single FA option like the current Leman Russ's are, that should eliminate several FA entries.

Kill Points are never going to be "fair", but 1 KP per FOC slot is a good baseline metric, and tying that KP to the command element at least has some strategic concept behind it. Hence my suggestion that 1 Platoon = 1 KP, only pay attention to command.

If you look at the Elite Inquisitor, he starts at 20 pts, and you add from there. I'd use him as the baseline for Advisors, so if the Sanctioned Psyker can be 10-15 as today, then I'd try to keep the Battle Psyker below 50 pts and have him slot well below a SM Librarian stat-wise *and* power-wise. To make him worth 100 pts, he needs to be WS4 BS4 S4 T4 I4 A3+ Sv3+ with a Force Weapon...

The minefield is 6" wide per 2 models, so I'd take 8 models for a 24" wide minefield. But the problem I was pointing out is that you're really forcing the Guard into stand-and-shoot mode.

Make the Servitors simple at 10 pts each, like in Hunters. Cost the powers into the Techpriest. I think he costs the same as current, and let the points fall where they may.

The Artillery being Elite makes IA:5 standard for all players and opponents. Storms are available from the Inquistion or as Grenadiers, so they don't compete. That leaves Ogryns & Ratlings. Ratlings over a Mole Mortar or Rapier? No way. Only the 24" Minefield competes. You put the minefield at the edge of the DZ, the Artillery behind, and encircle with throwaway Troops. No problem.

Your Storms are Sergeant +5, +5 more = 11 models. So you "go to 11", like Spinal Tap.

It's not a "lasgun" - it's a "Hellgun". So it doesn't need to suck. My favorite is R24" S4 AP6 Rapid-Fire - just a hair worse than a Bolter, and only in certain situations.

I still like Guardsmen at 5 pts. It feels better. But the suggestion to start at 60 pts and include one "free" option isn't a bad one. The problem is, at 40 pts per squad, with inexpensive weapons, you overly encourage (undesirable) gunline Guard. Which doesn't need any encouragement. Marginally cheaper Guard, with *substantially* cheaper Transport (and cheaper Special Weapons) encourages (more desirable) mobility for Objectives.

Either Doctrines are good, and worth a flat 20 pts, or they're not so good, and only worth a flat 15 pts regardless of whether they go on Command or line squads.

The point is that the rule is overly complicated. Make it simple or pull it from the list?

R48" S7 Autocannon is *clearly* superior to an R36" S6 Multilaser. Given the choice, I will *always* take Autocannons. Autocannons and twin HB are worth at least 5 pts more, probably 10 pts more as they encourage shooty play.

____


Also, WRT balance, if you've got the whole sink here, why are you picking at my Eldar list, which is far less challenged in this regard?

JohnHwangDD wrote:Kill Points are never going to be "fair", but 1 KP per FOC slot is a good baseline metric, and tying that KP to the command element at least has some strategic concept behind it. Hence my suggestion that 1 Platoon = 1 KP, only pay attention to command.

The problem with 1 KP for 1 platoon is that to kill off a full sized platoon, you'd need to chew through 55 models, and thus IG would then be put at the completely opposite end of the spectrum, with a very low KP total and *tons* of tiny units.

It's an aggravating problem that simply further highlights the lack of thought and forsight that Alessio showed when designing 5th Edition (that and "Troops Only Scoring" coupled with "Scoring and Contesting to the last") I really wish GW would can him already, I haven't found anything he has been involved in to be up to par.

If you look at the Elite Inquisitor, he starts at 20 pts, and you add from there. I'd use him as the baseline for Advisors, so if the Sanctioned Psyker can be 10-15 as today, then I'd try to keep the Battle Psyker below 50 pts and have him slot well below a SM Librarian stat-wise *and* power-wise. To make him worth 100 pts, he needs to be WS4 BS4 S4 T4 I4 A3+ Sv3+ with a Force Weapon...

Well, Librarians aren't the most powerful psykers out there, they are tougher and better fighters than most, but what I was trying to do with the Primaris was make a psyker that wasn't all that deadly in CC, but that had some ridiculous Psychic powers to compensate

The minefield is 6" wide per 2 models, so I'd take 8 models for a 24" wide minefield.

mmm good point, I'll re-work that. But the problem I was pointing out is that you're really forcing the Guard into stand-and-shoot mode.

nice

Perhaps you misunderstood: 1 Platoon = 1 KP, because you only score a KP for the Command Squad. Kill 5 T3 guys (plus any Advisors) and collect a cookie. The rest of the Guard are throwaway from a KP standpoint, which should suit you just fine.

GW did a fine job with KP, when you understand that it gets away from making unnecessarily complicated VPs a mandatory part of GW gaming. That is, if you have the premise that it is at all desirable to keep track of mindless indiscriminate destruction of enemy units, then KPs are clearly better than VPs. What KPs really lay bare is the pointlessness of scoring VPs at all. GW isn't done here, and we'll see another revamp in 5 years, when 6th rolls around.

IMO, only Troops Scoring, coupled with all-or-nothing was a masterstroke of brilliance. It finally made Troops important, and I love the side effect this has in gaming. Also, faulting the base rules is odd, because 5th definitely plays better than 4th. It is *much* clearer and smoother.

Minefields discourage enemy movement. That means that the Guard don't need to move. Ergo, static shooting. That is why the new SM are rumored to lose their Whirlwind Minelayer option.

I still don't think Artillery belongs as Elite. Heavy, sure, OK.

OK, why are Guard not allowed to take Platoons and Stormtroopers and Conscripts together? Those kind of restrictions are obsolete in 5th Edition Codex design. Just let the player take what they want.

Somehow, my mind just automatically inserted the Mole Mortar in the list. Wierd how that works, eh?

Having the Rapier being fragile isn't a bad start. But it's going to get at least a 4+ from being in cover. And it won't be the only thing for the enemy to shoot at.

So the Minefield is less effective against 1 army (ignore Tau, as they don't do Assault): Eldar Assault? No problem, as there *should* be a way to negate it. The scary Eldar Aspects are 200+ pts for the unit + 100+ pts for the Tank. And to make a credible assault, they're going to need at least 3 units. So that's 900+ pts dedicated this way. Or you've got a Tau player ferrying Kroot in his Devilfish Tranports. So what's the problem again?

S3 actually *is* worse than S4 by itself. And Imperials characteristically use Rapid-Fire weapons, so it should be Rapid Fire. Leave the massed multi-shot Assault weapons to the Eldar, please. And don't change Storms to become Dire Avengers. That's not the army you're working on. The only way that you can make the Hellgun work as S3 is to make it AP3, and without "gets hot".

Yes, gunline is a valid playstyle. But it shouldn't be enouraged in any way, shape, or form.

A basic Guardsman with integral Vox and mass access to appropriately cheap Chimeras is worth 5 pts.

Carapace is worth *far* more per-model on a 5-man Command Squad than on a 10-man line squad. That line squad can lose 8 guys before anybody cares (save the Heavy & Special for last). The Command squad can only lose a couple guys before important guys (Heavy, Special, or LD) start dying. And with 5th wound allocation, survival is even more important, as the 10-man squad can distribute 8 hits before even testing on the Heavies or Specials. That is why the Doctrines are worth more on smaller squads. Cameoline is even better, as it's not too difficult to drop 5 guys, so getting a 5+ (or better) go-to-ground is very powerful.

48" range on an Autocannon can give you an extra turn of shooting over a multi-laser, and being able to score Penetrating hits vs Glancing is also important with the new damage chart.

I see Multi-Laser as like a Heavy Bolter. I see Autocannon as better than Heavy Bolter. Hence the slight price bump.
____

Given the cost of those infiltrating Troops, I don't see the problem. They're not obviously worse than BA Assault Marines or Deathwing Assault Terminator Deep Strike. You pay a lot, like CSM Cult Marines, and you get a strong unit. That's fair. The other thing is, nobody else is going to take the T3 Assault Role, so it has to be Eldar.

JohnHwangDD wrote:Perhaps you misunderstood: 1 Platoon = 1 KP, because you only score a KP for the Command Squad. Kill 5 T3 guys (plus any Advisors) and collect a cookie. The rest of the Guard are throwaway from a KP standpoint, which should suit you just fine.

Good point.

GW did a fine job with KP, when you understand that it gets away from making unnecessarily complicated VPs a mandatory part of GW gaming.

I never saw what was wrong with VP's. Both sides come to the table with the same potential number of VP's, with the same potential gain. With KP's, one side can have 19 (seen often in IG/Tau armies) and the other side may only have 9 (not uncommon for MEQ armies) and thus the MEQ army could have one guy on the board, and the Tau army may still have 7 KP's left and a couple dozen dudes and a tank, but still lose.

That is, if you have the premise that it is at all desirable to keep track of mindless indiscriminate destruction of enemy units, then KPs are clearly better than VPs. What KPs really lay bare is the pointlessness of scoring VPs at all. GW isn't done here, and we'll see another revamp in 5 years, when 6th rolls around.

However the current system I think is inherently broken, and doesn't accurately portray what an annihilation missions should be, once all is said and done. The fact that an army can still be roughly 50% intact with a single enemy dude sitting the the back corner and *lose* doesn't accurately portray an annihilation mission in any realistic sense and certainly isn't balanced.

IMO, only Troops Scoring, coupled with all-or-nothing was a masterstroke of brilliance. It finally made Troops important, and I love the side effect this has in gaming.

I don't think it was "brilliant", especially not with the current metagame. If every army was designed to rely on its troops in the same manner, that would be one thing, but some armies are clearly designed and play better with 50 or 60% troops, some not so much. The all-or-nothing means that you can have 40 marines on an objective, and have it contested by a single jetbike (saw this in an Apoc game where an objective building was held by 4 squads of Chaos marines, and a Necron Destroyer hopped on it turn 6)

[qutoe] Also, faulting the base rules is odd, because 5th definitely plays better than 4th. It is *much* clearer and smoother.

allrighty, here's the new list, there's a fair number of new changes.

Now I put in a change for IG tanks that I'm iffy on, but also am thinking it may (or may not be) appropriate given that IG tanks count S5 weapons as defensive.
IG tanks with the Heavy Platform rule only can move 5"/10", but can fire S5 weapons as defensive. I would like feedback on this. On one hand it does make IG tanks a bit slower (which according to fluff they are *very* slow, especially the Russ) but it makes them much more effective on the move as well and gives some justification for IG tanks moving and firing multiple S5 weapons when other, arguably more advanced vehicles cannot. Feedback on this would be appreciated.

Also a couple changes to other units:
Ogryn Ripper guns now give Frag Grenades and downgrade opponents Initiative by 1 on the turn they charge

Rapier now downgrades cover saves by 1, but has been increased in cost.

Hellhounds/Salamanders/Hydras have been consolidated into a single "Medium tank" category under FA. If none are taken as FA, they may be taken as Elites instead.

Xeno Riders are in (dunno if that was in the last update)

Sentinels now have all IA armaments, and a DCCW option (power lifter)

Stormtroopers may not Outflank if taken as Troops.


probably a few other changes I forgot.

I've just played 2 small games using this codex, vs orks and marines. On the whole we found the list to be excellent, although some of it seems to be slightly overpowered.

Stormtroopers: We thought these guys were too cheap. We didn't have a problem with the assault 3 hellguns, but we thought the special weapons were too much of a bargain, for BS4. You could add +5 (or even double!) the cost of special weapons for Stormies and veterans, this would make a unit that is awesome in comparison to the normal Guard, but one that you will have to think harder about how you equip.

We tried out some orgyns. We loved the ogryns. The T5 finally gives them the statline described in their fluff. But again, they are probably a bit too effective now. I would suggest reducing their strength and initiative by 1.

I could see what you were trying to do with the Psykers, but they do come off as being naked librarians. I think you should add the special rule that a psyker can only be bought for a unit that already includes a commissar (to keep an eye out for possible heresy!).


I liked your Stormtrooper Company roster option. Have you read the Bell of Lost Soul's Macharian Campaign book? They have rules for Light Cavalry companies which you could include to make cool rough rider armies.

Darth Fugly wrote:

I've just played 2 small games using this codex, vs orks and marines. On the whole we found the list to be excellent, although some of it seems to be slightly overpowered.

Sweet, lets see it!

Stormtroopers: We thought these guys were too cheap. We didn't have a problem with the assault 3 hellguns, but we thought the special weapons were too much of a bargain, for BS4. You could add +5 (or even double!) the cost of special weapons for Stormies and veterans, this would make a unit that is awesome in comparison to the normal Guard, but one that you will have to think harder about how you equip.

Mmm, that seems like a fair point, I may do that.

We tried out some orgyns. We loved the ogryns. The T5 finally gives them the statline described in their fluff. But again, they are probably a bit too effective now. I would suggest reducing their strength and initiative by 1.

My problem with reducing their init to two is that they will strike ahead of only powerfists, and they really aren't that slow, as soon as I get a chance to playtest these myself (since I don't actually own any but the other IG player here does) I'll see what should be done. maybe removing the flak armor?

I could see what you were trying to do with the Psykers, but they do come off as being naked librarians. I think you should add the special rule that a psyker can only be bought for a unit that already includes a commissar (to keep an eye out for possible heresy!).

The issue with that is it makes them much more expensive as one would *have* to take the Commissars to get any sort of psychic defense unit which IG desperately need. Did you find them too powerful? Basically I was trying to make them very powerful psychically but very weak in terms of physical combat ability.

I liked your Stormtrooper Company roster option. Have you read the Bell of Lost Soul's Macharian Campaign book? They have rules for Light Cavalry companies which you could include to make cool rough rider armies.

I'll go take a look at it, I know IA:5 has an option for a RR command squad, I'll work on putting that in.

In general- I thought it was wonderful.

A few things of note-
Ratling runts should "go to ground" not be "pinned"

The ability to add 6 storm troops to a squad of five, gives 11 man squad. Any reason for that?

I love the new chimera- exactly what it needed.

I like the Medium tank option.

The heavy tanks- you might want to be careful with. Reducing the cost and raising the rear armour may be too much of a jump. Me personally- i think its great- but i play with them, and not against them.

Kill Points- I like the above plan of only the command being worth KP

Iboshi2 wrote:In general- I thought it was wonderful.

thanks

A few things of note-
Ratling runts should "go to ground" not be "pinned"

Good idea, I was just copying their current rule, but that fits much better.

The ability to add 6 storm troops to a squad of five, gives 11 man squad. Any reason for that?

I need to fix that, for some reason when I wrote it I wasn't thinking clearly and should have fixed it in the last writeup.

The heavy tanks- you might want to be careful with. Reducing the cost and raising the rear armour may be too much of a jump. Me personally- i think its great- but i play with them, and not against them.

I was thinking sort of the same thing, but then I saw the new SM codex where an AC/HB predator is 85pts and a BS4 Vindi that auto-passes terrain tests is only 115. Looking at how GW is costing such vehicles further and further downward, I don't think it would be too bad. I'd be in favor of also giving Predators, Hammerheads and Battlewagons all rear AV11, it doesn't make sense that heavy battle tanks should have the same paper thin armor as lighter vehicles.

Kill Points- I like the above plan of only the command being worth KP

The idea is growing on me, however I still have some reservations about it, and am trying to find a solution that I like, however I'm considering it more and more.

Ok- I definetly agree with you- I recently got a peek into a marine dex (new one) and you're completly correct. The cost is very justified based on the boosts that other tanks seem to be getting.

OK, one quick question that I overlooked previously:

If I take a Support Weapons Platoon, outfit everybody with Plasma, then I can take Sharpshooters and be effectively immune to Gets Hot?

Iboshi2 wrote:Ok- I definetly agree with you- I recently got a peek into a marine dex (new one) and you're completly correct. The cost is very justified based on the boosts that other tanks seem to be getting.

Yeah, the new SM codex made it really easy for me not to feel too bad about the tank costs. My head exploded when I saw that a BS4 AV13/11/10 tank with two heavy bolters and a turret autocannon that came with smoke launchers and a searchlight was the same price as my poor Imperial Guard Chimera.

JohnHwangDD wrote:OK, one quick question that I overlooked previously:

If I take a Support Weapons Platoon, outfit everybody with Plasma, then I can take Sharpshooters and be effectively immune to Gets Hot?

Good point. I'll do what should have been done by GW orignally and change Sharpshooters to re-roll 2's instead of 1's, although even currently they wouldn't be totally immune to it, just have a ridiculously low chance of it.

good call with the 2's