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This is how I'd run an Immolator list with retributors, posted by request.

frgsinwntr wrote:Post a list with the retributors. I would be interested in seeing how you would do it.

Compared to stjohn70's list: http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/list/215373.page

This is the reverse of stjohn70's design philosophy for his Immolator army.

The basic idea is:

Life is cheap.

I will probably give up alot of KPs, but thems the breaks.

Below the list are the tactics.

================

2000 Pts - Witch Hunters Roster - Life is Cheap

1 Palatine @ 197 Pts
Add Celestian Retinue
4 Celestian Retinue @ [162] Pts
Bolter (x2); Flamer (x2)
1 Sister Superior @ [13] Pts
Bolter
1 Immolator @ [85] Pts
Twin Linked MultiMelta

1 Inquisitor @ 95 Pts
3 Warrior @ [75] Pts
Gun Servitor
1 Gun Servitor @ [15] Pts
Frag Grenades; Krak Grenades; Heavy Bolter (x1); Targeter

1 Inquisitor @ 95 Pts
3 Warrior @ [75] Pts
Gun Servitor
1 Gun Servitor @ [15] Pts
Frag Grenades; Krak Grenades; Heavy Bolter (x1); Targeter

1 Inquisitor @ 95 Pts
3 Warrior @ [75] Pts
Gun Servitor
1 Gun Servitor @ [15] Pts
Frag Grenades; Krak Grenades; Heavy Bolter (x1); Targeter

5 Inquisitorial Stormtroopers @ 60 Pts
Frag Grenades; Hellgun (x3); Flamer (x2); Targeter

5 Inquisitorial Stormtroopers @ 60 Pts
Frag Grenades; Hellgun (x3); Flamer (x2); Targeter

5 Inquisitorial Stormtroopers @ 60 Pts
Frag Grenades; Hellgun (x3); Flamer (x2); Targeter

4 Dominion Squad @ 158 Pts
Bolter (x2); Flamer (x2)
1 Sister Superior @ [11] Pts
Bolter
1 Immolator @ [85] Pts
Twin Linked MultiMelta

4 Dominion Squad @ 158 Pts
Bolter (x2); Flamer (x2)
1 Sister Superior @ [11] Pts
Bolter
1 Immolator @ [85] Pts
Twin Linked MultiMelta

4 Dominion Squad @ 158 Pts
Bolter (x2); Flamer (x2)
1 Sister Superior @ [11] Pts
Bolter
1 Immolator @ [85] Pts
Twin Linked MultiMelta

4 Retributor Squad @ 200 Pts
Heavy Bolter (x4)
1 Sister Superior @ [11] Pts
Bolter
1 Immolator @ [85] Pts
Twin Linked MultiMelta

4 Retributor Squad @ 200 Pts
Heavy Bolter (x4)
1 Sister Superior @ [11] Pts
Bolter
1 Immolator @ [85] Pts
Twin Linked MultiMelta

4 Retributor Squad @ 200 Pts
Heavy Bolter (x4)
1 Sister Superior @ [11] Pts
Bolter
1 Immolator @ [85] Pts
Twin Linked MultiMelta

Total Roster Cost: 1736

===========================

Deploy the 3 elites and the 3 retributor squads on the table, but behind the Immolators so they cannot be shot straight away.

Deploy the 3 troops inside the 3 retributor immolators.

This gives me 7 TL Multimeltas to knock out tanks, and 2 flamers that can drop out from every Immolator to fry troops that get too close.

I can if I need to, stand off at range and pick people off.

21 heavy bolters @ BS4 gives you alot of firepower downrange.

Yes, I am fully aware each unit is relatively easy to kill off.

That's the weakness and the strength of the list.

I didn't even bring a book (though I wager the Palatine would get one since I have spare points)...

Just to be clear, this list pretty much revolves around tabling the opponent right? Because unlike Stjohns list your troop choices are very small and vulnerable. He only brought 2 i believe but they were 10 man squads (i could be wrong, it's been a while) of 3+ faithful sisters instead of 5-man stormtroopers. I just wanted to make sure and wonder what you were gonna do if you don't table them.

Those inquisitors seem like a waste. Is there really nothing better you could do with the points? I mean, I'd take an allied inquisitor for dual mystics, but those are pretty expensive for a single heavy bolter, which is what it appears to work out to, unless it's listed oddly. Almost feel like they could be replaced with Chimeras for the IST, which would add not only heavy bolters but also multilasers, and add three more pieces of armor to go with the Immolators.

why a palatine? if you spend the extra 10 pts you get an extra wound more faith and an overall better HQ choice.

No mystics this time?

Why bring a Canoness? It's a shooty army, and I don't really need her.

I can bring Mystics if I felt the need.

With this much firepower, I can shoot demons to death in one turn instead of two.

Would help against drop pod marines, but they aren't out yet so...no point in defending against them, eh?

seriously... you have two faith points?

Why wouldn't you just take marines then? I am sure you can write the same list for marines. AND still have the list be just as effective if not more.

Stelek.... you sure can pack a lot of HBs into a list but this kind of list won't do well in Tourney around here.

What does it do vs Eldar or Tau who just pop your Immolators on turns 1 and 2 and then staying in their transports just shoot you up?

The list is good against Horde I agree and probably deamons as well. But with the 7 multi-meltas being your only ranged anti tank on armor 11 vehicles..... you don't have enough firepower to bring down a solidly build Mech list. The Immolators too expensive to be anti tank.

I also agree that Retributors are good. But they should be Elites. Not Heavy... then I would take them.

I will still test this list however and let you know how it goes.

Faith is of little use in an Immo list.

frgsinwntr wrote:

Why wouldn't you just take marines then? I am sure you can write the same list for marines. AND still have the list be just as effective if not more.

I think this is a valid point. The new razorbacks will be able to take TL Multimeltas (maybe even cheaper than an immolator?) in even larger numbers because they won't have to burn 340-odd points on the two sisters troop units. Plus many more of the units riding in the multimelta transports can be troops. T4 troops.

Salamanders might become the new sisters? Or am I missing something because I haven't seen the new SM codex really yet?

Hmmm don't recall burning 340 points on Sisters. I don't see 340 points burned on Sisters.

Marines cannot make this list in any way.

============================

I'd like to see Eldar "pop" my immolators in turn 1 and turn 2.

Since I can't do it, I'd like to know how you manage it.

Personally I run well-optimized lists, not 'everyone grab Eldrad and guide the war walkers ftw' lists like alot of people do (and which only kill 1 Immolator a turn).

So please educate me and show me how an army you run (Tau or Eldar) and can beat other lists (i.e. it isn't tailored to beat this list)....show me how it beats this, it will be an education for everyone. Hopefully including me, cause I want to see it.

You spend quite a few points on sister's units. You have 3 dominion squads and 3 retributor squads. Are those not "sisters' squads"?

Flav's point is that if you aren't using faith, or any of the other things sisters have that is wacky, then you could probably make the same list (Spamming Multi-Melta Immolators/Razorbacks) with Marines for cheaper points, because the Razorbacks are hella cheap in the new book, and you would have more quality troops, because Marines are T4.

Add in Vulkan, and all your multi-melta's are twin linked! Hoorrraay, and you can still ally with the Inquisition stuff. So...why sisters?

Vulkan costs alot.

Sisters don't, and Sisters get the stuff you want without having to pay for the stuff you don't want. i.e. I can get two flamers on 55 points. Marines can't come close to that value.

Marines can't spam anywhere near this number of heavy bolters.

Sisters in vehicle heavy lists do not need faith. You die because you failed your save.

Immolators come with twin-linked multimeltas.

So, see why Sisters > Marines in this army?

spam multimeltas in the form of attack bikes from the BA army. You can get 9 Multimeltas for 350pts. There ya go thats a better value then the 1750 you spent to get 7

Throw in the DC for some CC as well as dante and corbs etc... multimelta spam with more and better troops.

As for eldar? I do not have the codex but I hear wave serpents are hard to take down and can have some impressive weapons. Not to mention falcons or fire prisms.

And who said Eldrad + War walkers? Are your players out there that bad?

But seriously. Why run a sisters list like this if you can run the same kind of list better with marine lists?

Stelek wrote:Hmmm don't recall burning 340 points on Sisters. I don't see 340 points burned on Sisters.

Marines cannot make this list in any way.

Oops, I was confusing this list with StJohn's list that has two 10-model sister squads in rhinos.

Burning 180 points on stormtroopers who can't take an immolater, then.

I'll have to defer the question of whether or not marines can make this list since I haven't really seen the codex yet.

Flavius Infernus wrote:

Stelek wrote:Hmmm don't recall burning 340 points on Sisters. I don't see 340 points burned on Sisters.

Marines cannot make this list in any way.

Oops, I was confusing this list with StJohn's list that has two 10-model sister squads in rhinos.

Burning 180 points on stormtroopers who can't take an immolater, then.

I'll have to defer the question of whether or not marines can make this list since I haven't really seen the codex yet.

And die easy... not taking any objectives...

It doesn't seem like a very 5th edition list to me.

I agree that it does seem a bit light in troops. I'm guessing you're hoping to never have to use the stormtroopers' flamers unless absolutely necessary. I don't think many eldar lists could take down that many Immolators in two turns and Wave Serpents are slightly tougher than normal transports, but still get damaged on 4+ with an AP1 weapon.

frgsinwntr wrote:spam multimeltas in the form of attack bikes from the BA army. You can get 9 Multimeltas for 350pts. There ya go thats a better value then the 1750 you spent to get 7

Which die alot easier than the vehicles do and can only kill 3 targets a turn...and are just 3 targets, and easily killed by heavy fire or torrent of fire.

frgsinwntr wrote:Throw in the DC for some CC as well as dante and corbs etc... multimelta spam with more and better troops.

Someone sure is full of themselves with how good BA are.

Now jump across the battlefield and come get me before you're dead.

frgsinwntr wrote:As for eldar? I do not have the codex but I hear wave serpents are hard to take down and can have some impressive weapons. Not to mention falcons or fire prisms.

Wave Serpents are about the best target for a multimelta. Can sit at 24" and punch their ticket better than anybody else.

Falcons and Fire Prisms have better range, but are much easier to destroy when you get within 12".

frgsinwntr wrote:And who said Eldrad + War walkers? Are your players out there that bad?

I was referring to the internet lists that people like to say are 'great' when they are anything but.

Hopefully now that I've clearly said it again, you'll understand.

frgsinwntr wrote:But seriously. Why run a sisters list like this if you can run the same kind of list better with marine lists?

My guess is you don't know anything about marines, you certainly don't sound like you know what they can or cannot do.

This list is something they cannot do.

So that's probably why I'd run this list instead of the marine list, because the marines can't do this list.

frgsinwntr wrote:

Flavius Infernus wrote:

Stelek wrote:Hmmm don't recall burning 340 points on Sisters. I don't see 340 points burned on Sisters.

Marines cannot make this list in any way.

Oops, I was confusing this list with StJohn's list that has two 10-model sister squads in rhinos.

Burning 180 points on stormtroopers who can't take an immolater, then.

I'll have to defer the question of whether or not marines can make this list since I haven't really seen the codex yet.

And die easy... not taking any objectives...

It doesn't seem like a very 5th edition list to me.

That's ok. It is anyway.

Gotta kill the vehicles to stop them from claiming objectives.

Might not seem hard, but in fact it really is.

ferrous wrote:I agree that it does seem a bit light in troops. I'm guessing you're hoping to never have to use the stormtroopers' flamers unless absolutely necessary. I don't think many eldar lists could take down that many Immolators in two turns and Wave Serpents are slightly tougher than normal transports, but still get damaged on 4+ with an AP1 weapon.

Correct on all counts.

Mech Eldar with the right build can hurt it, but you need alot of hits from Falcons or Prisms to actually take down the vehicles. Depending on luck is usually considered a failure of competitive list design.

Wouldn't this list be a bit weak to close combat? Particularly if a single unit can catch more than one of yours. I know you preach the value of flamers on bunched-up troops, but part of the benefit of stjohn's immolator list was that it could move over 6" and still fire. MM Immys can't. Not to mention, you might be putting out a lot of shots, but you can't take a whole lot back. One good volley can easily knock out a retributor squad.

"
Post 2008/09/16 20:39:32 Subject: Immolator/Retributor List
Wouldn't this list be a bit weak to close combat? Particularly if a single unit can catch more than one of yours. I know you preach the value of flamers on bunched-up troops, but part of the benefit of stjohn's immolator list was that it could move over 6" and still fire. MM Immys can't. Not to mention, you might be putting out a lot of shots, but you can't take a whole lot back. One good volley can easily knock out a retributor squad."

This list would lose to a lot of things... but i will be testing it Like I said Friday.... then I can see if Stelek speaks the truth.

It is weak to close combat.

stjohn70's list is a different beast in every way, really.

While a MM Immy would like to move 12 and fire, it's usually fine with moving 6 and firing.

Stelek wrote:It is weak to close combat.

stjohn70's list is a different beast in every way, really.

While a MM Immy would like to move 12 and fire, it's usually fine with moving 6 and firing.

No.Immo can move 12 and fire its skorcha,but cannot do the same with MM.

tokugawa wrote:

Stelek wrote:It is weak to close combat.

stjohn70's list is a different beast in every way, really.

While a MM Immy would like to move 12 and fire, it's usually fine with moving 6 and firing.

No.Immo can move 12 and fire its skorcha,but cannot do the same with MM.

yes everyone agrees with this. Even Stelek

Stelek wrote:

So that's probably why I'd run this list instead of the marine list, because the marines can't do this list.

I'm still not getting it, Stelek. I mean, I usually don't comment much on your lists because I look at them and the logic of them makes sense right away (and I admit I admire the evil genius of the 7LR spam list as much as the next guy). But this still looks like it could be done better and cheaper by replacing most of the sisters with marines.

Just to be clear, I'm talking new codex here and assuming the SM will take some inquisitorial allies to get the cheap flamers. So why couldn't you do something like this:

Cheap marine HQ with command squad, 2 flamers in a MM Razor (replaces palatine & retinue)
WH inq lord with warriors & HB (same configuration as the OP, but a lord because of FOC restrictions)
WH inq with HB (same configuration as the OP WH list)
DH inquisitor with HB (same configuration)
2X WH stormtroopers with dual flamers
1X DH stormtroopers with dual flamers
2X SM tac squads in MM Razors, 1 flamer each (replacing 2 dominions)
1 Allied Dominion in a MM immolator with however many flamers
3X SM Devastator with 4HB, each in a MM Razor (replacing retributors)

It's the same number of HBs, all but two of the flamers. But it has 5 troops instead of 3, a fair amount of CC ability and a lot of units with T4 and ATSKNF. But most importantly, since MM Razorbacks are something like 30-35 points cheaper than (functionally-identical) MM Immolators, that probably leaves enough points free--even with the extra cost of the command squad and SMs--to maybe buy another tac squad or vet squad in a MM razor and make up the extra flamers while increasing the number of bodies.

What am I overlooking?

Flavius Infernus wrote:

Stelek wrote:

So that's probably why I'd run this list instead of the marine list, because the marines can't do this list.

I'm still not getting it, Stelek. I mean, I usually don't comment much on your lists because I look at them and the logic of them makes sense right away (and I admit I admire the evil genius of the 7LR spam list as much as the next guy). But this still looks like it could be done better and cheaper by replacing most of the sisters with marines.

Just to be clear, I'm talking new codex here and assuming the SM will take some inquisitorial allies to get the cheap flamers. So why couldn't you do something like this:

Cheap marine HQ with command squad, 2 flamers in a MM Razor (replaces palatine & retinue)
WH inq lord with warriors & HB (same configuration as the OP, but a lord because of FOC restrictions)
WH inq with HB (same configuration as the OP WH list)
DH inquisitor with HB (same configuration)
2X WH stormtroopers with dual flamers
1X DH stormtroopers with dual flamers
2X SM tac squads in MM Razors, 1 flamer each (replacing 2 dominions)
1 Allied Dominion in a MM immolator with however many flamers
3X SM Devastator with 4HB, each in a MM Razor (replacing retributors)

It's the same number of HBs, all but two of the flamers. But it has 5 troops instead of 3, a fair amount of CC ability and a lot of units with T4 and ATSKNF. But most importantly, since MM Razorbacks are something like 30-35 points cheaper than (functionally-identical) MM Immolators, that probably leaves enough points free--even with the extra cost of the command squad and SMs--to maybe buy another tac squad or vet squad in a MM razor and make up the extra flamers while increasing the number of bodies.

What am I overlooking?

You did not prove that taking marines could increase the number of flamers and skorchas. So you cannot conclude that to take them would make the list better.

And...If needed,immos can switch to skorchas.Can razorbacks spit flame to your enemies when they cruise?

tokugawa wrote:

And...If needed,immos can switch to skorchas.Can razorbacks spit flame to your enemies when they cruise?

This would be worth the slight extra cost of flamer-armed immolators over razorbacks IMO. If I were doing this army I'd probably use a flamer-equipped immolator with the one dominion squad for that very reason, leaving the other 6-7 razors with multimeltas.

But then again I'd probably also use HB speeders instead of inquisitors with single-HB retinues. Those squads also don't make total sense to me yet. You get more wounds from a squad with naked acolytes and familiars instead of warriors. Is it something about the warriors' armor saves?

No it's the 3 heavy bolters per squad that requires warriors.

Ooookay. I get it now. The format makes it look like 3 warriors and only one of them is a HB servitor. But from the point costs I surmise that it's three HBs.

Okay, thanks, Stelek. I'll stop harassing you for more information now.

Np man. lol

shooty ork games - 3x lootas and 9x big guns.

tau games - 10+ missile pods and 3x railguns.

3x exorcist games - might not be so bad.


Not meant as a 'dis' I just want to talk about these matchups here. If you were hellbent on "tourney-izing" this list, would there be tweaks that you could make that would smooth over some of these problems, while at the same time, keeping the demons and the nids under control? Or is this list gonna be intersting and fun, but not tourney worthy?