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Shep wrote:shooty ork games - 3x lootas and 9x big guns.

tau games - 10+ missile pods and 3x railguns.

3x exorcist games - might not be so bad.

Not meant as a 'dis' I just want to talk about these matchups here. If you were hellbent on "tourney-izing" this list, would there be tweaks that you could make that would smooth over some of these problems, while at the same time, keeping the demons and the nids under control? Or is this list gonna be intersting and fun, but not tourney worthy?

I think you could do several things really.

#1: Drop the elite retinues as gunline units and just pack a couple inq with mystics for anti-deep strike (from the DH list).

#2: Run large Retributor squads.

#3: Run large Battle Sister squads (15) for lots of close range fire and tarpitting instead of stormtroopers.

#4: Add Celestian units (minimum size) with multimeltas inside the MM armed tanks for a second anti-tank shot (for those armies that will be moving towards you, which is just about everyone...so you move forward a turn 12", then pile out 3" and run forward D6". Next turn, you should have 2 MM shots per such unit somewhere from 18" from the other guys board edge. That usually means you are in 12" of the bigger tanks, so...if you aren't dead, they're in serious danger.

Hmm...I rather like this list. What would you recommend dropping to bring it down to 1500?

Elite inquisitors + 1 Immolator until you are down to 1500.

Ran the list.

VS horde ork. The Immolators would have been better off as a twin flamers (I proxied Rhinos). I found that even though the heavy bolters gave alot of shots it still did not help. The list would have been better mobile.

My thoughts:
The list while it may be good does not fit my play style or the metagame for my area. I ran a more mobile list and did much better vs the same army.

Sadly, you need to play more than a single game to determine a lists usefulness.

I do find it amusing that 21 heavy bolters couldn't stop horde Orks.

Maybe if you upped it to 28 heavy bolters.

Mobile armies always beat down horde orks...this one crushes the life out of 'em:

http://yesthetruthhurts.blogspot.com/2008/09/second-marine-army-of-death.html

A little weak to MC, but rock-paper-scissors...

Well, consider.

21 heavy bolters.
63 shots
42 hits
28 wounds
14 cover saves, 14 dead.

That's less than half a single 30-man squad per turn, assuming averages. If there are multiples of those, and things that can shoot back at these small, fragile HB squads, you're in trouble.

First off to an earlier comment in this thread detailing the use of named characters - alot of people are advocating their use and the vast majority of you are missing the point regardless of whether you don't need an opponents permission to use them anymore, they are named characters and they are NOT YOU. the General, ie, your HQ Choice represents You! You don't need Vulkan to win, in fact you don't need Eldrad because a pair of farseers is cheaper and more effective when you take into consideration a larger force as a whole, and Stelek was trying unsuccessfully it appears to try and communicate this point across. You play with named characters if you are too unskilled as a player to play with the normal characters available to you (or unless you are theming an army heavily as I am with the Fabius Bile force).

Furthermore, let me emphasise something that most of you have missed:

THIS IS A SISTERS OF BATTLE ARMY NOT A SPACE MARINE ARMY!

If you want a Space marine army then play a space marine army, who cares if you can do it cheaper or blah blah blah, most of you who are advocating the Marines over the Sisters are missing the fact that whilst Razorbacks may be cheaper in the new book, a Tactical Squad without weapons is 90 points for 5 guys. As Stelek pointed out, a Sisters unit with a flamer is 55 points that's a solid 35 points saving, and whilst someone quoted the points of the razorback as being about that you still get down to the fact that the sisters unit can deal with more threats more efficiently then the marines because they still have BS 4 and also have a flamer for toasty fun whereas the marines just have their BS 4 bolters. And again, it's a sisters force not a marine force, you wanta marine force make a marine force, the sisters force will still drop more bodies on the board at the end of the day and they are still in Power Armour.

It took me a short while to understand why you took all Immolators with TL MM's Stelek, and when you sit back it gets down to the fact that MM's can't move and fire and are short-ranged. On an Immolator you can move and fire even just that 6"'s is enough, every turn and not be limited to range or enemy moving to avoid your heavy armour busting capabilities. It may be that the force needs to vary the Immolator armament so as it has 2 or 3 twin heavy flamers in there as well but the list looks solid. Stelek, can you enlighten us to the exact build of the Inquistor and his retinue, there's just a points cost and it is a bit confusing on reading it over, I presume 1 gun servitor with heavy bolter and 3 warriors with flamers? It's 1:30am I need sleep I may be confused on what the warriors can actually have so apologies if this is wrong as a query.

Auretious Taak.

Id really like to play against this list with my Dark Eldar. I think it would be a lot of fun

Flavius Infernus wrote:

Stelek wrote:

So that's probably why I'd run this list instead of the marine list, because the marines can't do this list.

I'm still not getting it, Stelek. I mean, I usually don't comment much on your lists because I look at them and the logic of them makes sense right away (and I admit I admire the evil genius of the 7LR spam list as much as the next guy). But this still looks like it could be done better and cheaper by replacing most of the sisters with marines.

Just to be clear, I'm talking new codex here and assuming the SM will take some inquisitorial allies to get the cheap flamers. So why couldn't you do something like this:

Cheap marine HQ with command squad, 2 flamers in a MM Razor (replaces palatine & retinue)
WH inq lord with warriors & HB (same configuration as the OP, but a lord because of FOC restrictions)
WH inq with HB (same configuration as the OP WH list)
DH inquisitor with HB (same configuration)
2X WH stormtroopers with dual flamers
1X DH stormtroopers with dual flamers
2X SM tac squads in MM Razors, 1 flamer each (replacing 2 dominions)
1 Allied Dominion in a MM immolator with however many flamers
3X SM Devastator with 4HB, each in a MM Razor (replacing retributors)

It's the same number of HBs, all but two of the flamers. But it has 5 troops instead of 3, a fair amount of CC ability and a lot of units with T4 and ATSKNF. But most importantly, since MM Razorbacks are something like 30-35 points cheaper than (functionally-identical) MM Immolators, that probably leaves enough points free--even with the extra cost of the command squad and SMs--to maybe buy another tac squad or vet squad in a MM razor and make up the extra flamers while increasing the number of bodies.

What am I overlooking?

As i have the new codex right in front of me, i'll try to build this suggested list.

Cheap HQ + command:
Captain (@100 pts, no options)
+ command (@115, + 10 pts for 2 flamers)
+ Razorback with multimelta's => Whoops, no melta's allowed on a razorback.

Conclusion: This list ain't possible with marines.

Grt. Pim

I have a few questions regarding the army tactics that you described:

Why do you recommend starting the Celestians behind the Immolators, instead of inside of them? You are already starting the IS squads in Immolators, so wouldn't it making sense to start the Celestians in their Immolators as well?

Let me know. Thanks.