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As I recall, Andy "Chapter Approved" Chambers quit/P45'ed due to GW rejecting his 40K4E rules outright and with prejudice. Now, I don't remember the timeline there too awful well, but given that it appears that 40k was in a slump for popularity during all of 4E, and has picked up quite a bit in 5E; is it possible that the reason for "low-quality" rules and game design in 4E was due to the Andy episode? Possibly his rules were all they had, and they had to roll with them, or maybe at the other end of the spectrum they rejected his rules and had to do some kind of emergency re-write in order to meet deadline?

I don't think there is much evidence that 4e was a popularity slump. The overall company sales figures were on a continuous decline, easily explained by the deflation of the LoTR bubble. Attendance at GTs and events was good, as far as I know.

It is too early to say that 5e heralds a return to popularity. It has only been out a couple of months, not enough to get a quarter's sales figures in. We need to give it a year or two.

5e is not a total rewrite of 4e. The rules are basically the same, with rationalisation and streamlining in some areas -- just better explained. (Amazing that an Italian could do a better job of writing than the British staff!)

Several areas of rules that saw the most changes have been the ones attracting the most criticism -- TLoS, the details of Assault, KPs and Wound Allocation.

In short it's a big reach to say that shenanigans and malarkey surrounding Andy Chambers's sudden departure produced a rubbish set of rules.

Kilkrazy wrote: (Amazing that an Italian could do a better job of writing than the British staff!)

Maybe a bit clearer on rules, but I don't think his ability to *design* the rules is very good at all, I've been left unimpressed (at best) by pretty much every 40k project he's been involved in, as well as his justifications for changes (or *not* making changes) and the horrifically poor FAQ's that were supposedly his responsibility (as well as his lack of will to change anything for an FAQ from what the explicit RAW in a book states even if it was unintentional)

Several areas of rules that saw the most changes have been the ones attracting the most criticism -- TLoS, the details of Assault, KPs and Wound Allocation.

don't forget defensive weapons.

grizgrin wrote:but given that it appears that 40k was in a slump for popularity during all of 4E, and has picked up quite a bit in 5E;

I don't really know if one can positively state that 40k picked up with the advent of 5E, or that the 4E rules were the cause of the slump (3rd ed had far worse rules).

grizgrin wrote:As I recall, Andy "Chapter Approved" Chambers quit/P45'ed due to GW rejecting his 40K4E rules outright and with prejudice.

That's complete and utter speculation and AFAIK (and I do know a bit) not true in the least.

I think the Andy Chambers issue is a red herring. 40k and WFB have been declining in volume sales (which does not necessarily equate to the volume of players playing the games and attending events such as Games Day). This is demonstrably true from their published turnover figures, which despite still including a significant amount of LotR sales now (reported estimates range from 10 - 28% of miniatures) are actually lower in real (i.e. discounting for inflation) terms than they were in 2001, before LotR was on the scene.

Having spoken to several current and former staffers, including the recently made redundant regional manager of my region, the biggest single issue is price. People buy less because they can afford less, and some either never start because they realise the cost of an army or quickly quit because they will never be able to afford the army they want.

Generally speaking Kirby was right when he claimed that rules quality was secondary to miniatures sales. People will play a bad game if it looks good. But sadly, when you have rules written as badly as 3rd and 4th were, and you have rapidly increasing prices pitched above most kids' reach, you end up with the train wreck that is GW's reported annual profits figures as people will only be led so far.

The improvement in popularity that has resulted from 5th edition is all well and good, but I can't see it translating into much increase in turnover as with yet another swingeing price increase at the end of the month, most punters are still just going to say "nice game, shame I can't afford it".

You've got to remember that the kind of 40k fanatics that hunt out stuff on the internet and post in forums are not "the norm" for GW customers. Most GW customers are a good deal more casual about their gaming and purchasing than we are.

grizgrin wrote:As I recall, Andy "Chapter Approved" Chambers quit/P45'ed due to GW rejecting his 40K4E rules outright and with prejudice. Now, I don't remember the timeline there too awful well, but given that it appears that 40k was in a slump for popularity during all of 4E, and has picked up quite a bit in 5E; is it possible that the reason for "low-quality" rules and game design in 4E was due to the Andy episode? Possibly his rules were all they had, and they had to roll with them, or maybe at the other end of the spectrum they rejected his rules and had to do some kind of emergency re-write in order to meet deadline?

Actually, Andy Chamber was fired for calling several people by extremely rude names, under the false assumption he was untouchable. In the end, turns out he wasn't. No martyrdom, just an arrogant ego. Hope he has learnt his lesson.

Osbad wrote:I think the Andy Chambers issue is a red herring. 40k and WFB have been declining in volume sales (which does not necessarily equate to the volume of players playing the games and attending events such as Games Day). This is demonstrably true from their published turnover figures, which despite still including a significant amount of LotR sales now (reported estimates range from 10 - 28% of miniatures) are actually lower in real (i.e. discounting for inflation) terms than they were in 2001, before LotR was on the scene.

Having spoken to several current and former staffers, including the recently made redundant regional manager of my region, the biggest single issue is price. People buy less because they can afford less, and some either never start because they realise the cost of an army or quickly quit because they will never be able to afford the army they want.

Generally speaking Kirby was right when he claimed that rules quality was secondary to miniatures sales. People will play a bad game if it looks good. But sadly, when you have rules written as badly as 3rd and 4th were, and you have rapidly increasing prices pitched above most kids' reach, you end up with the train wreck that is GW's reported annual profits figures as people will only be led so far.

The improvement in popularity that has resulted from 5th edition is all well and good, but I can't see it translating into much increase in turnover as with yet another swingeing price increase at the end of the month, most punters are still just going to say "nice game, shame I can't afford it".

You've got to remember that the kind of 40k fanatics that hunt out stuff on the internet and post in forums are not "the norm" for GW customers. Most GW customers are a good deal more casual about their gaming and purchasing than we are.

The entry cost is very high. We tend to forget that because we all have established armies so our buying is upgrades and generally discretionary.

i dont see how entry cost is high, when one person needs not to buy multiple kits to start out, he can just start out with 1 or 2 kits, like how i started way back.

GWs release of the Black Reach box set actually goes a long way to minimizing the entry costs. I believe that in itself will help grow the customer base from a cost to entry standpoint.

Hi enmitee.
I think the original purchase of AoBR IS good value for money!
But when you realise how much a full 1500pts army is going to cost ....'HOW MUCH!!!'

Comparing 40k to other games systems it IS expencive .Most games using this size minatures usualy run into the large skirmish size.Up to 50 minatures a side.(And gamers collect more of these smaller armies.)

And thier are lots of other manufactureres selling minatures at much more resasonable rates.
80 gaming plastic minatures for £10.
Or 'Perry quality sculpted ' minatures 30 for £15 to £20 .
And there are much better rule sets FREE to down load from the internet!


Mad Doc Grotsnik.
IF Andy Chambers called people rude names , it was probably becuase he cared very deeply about the future of the 40k game,but was not allowed to develop the game how he thought it should be developed.
And having seen what Andy Chambers is capable of after leaving GW, all I can say is its a shame the GW corperate suits didnt listen to him.

No mater how 'in tune' or 'talented' the GW studio staff games development team are. If the corperate managment dont listen to them , we get the massive disjoints that run throughout the mess that is GW PLC.

Who do you want in charge of game development , the game development team, or the Corperate Directors?

TTFN
Lanrak.

Mad Doc Grotsnik wrote:

grizgrin wrote:As I recall, Andy "Chapter Approved" Chambers quit/P45'ed due to GW rejecting his 40K4E rules outright and with prejudice. Now, I don't remember the timeline there too awful well, but given that it appears that 40k was in a slump for popularity during all of 4E, and has picked up quite a bit in 5E; is it possible that the reason for "low-quality" rules and game design in 4E was due to the Andy episode? Possibly his rules were all they had, and they had to roll with them, or maybe at the other end of the spectrum they rejected his rules and had to do some kind of emergency re-write in order to meet deadline?

Actually, Andy Chamber was fired for calling several people by extremely rude names, under the false assumption he was untouchable. In the end, turns out he wasn't. No martyrdom, just an arrogant ego. Hope he has learnt his lesson.

Given where he works now, I doubt he regrets it much, especially with the paycheck that he likely makes.

On the subject of entry cost, it's entirely a matter of perspective.

Having worked for GW, and first of all, let me admit I am not claiming this to be the status quo, I found Parents were more than willing to pay the prices, because of the amount of activity, and indeed, breadth of activities the Hobby encompasses.

So, sure, it might be £18 for 10 Marines or what have you, but their kid is going to be sat down building them and painting them for a good few hours. After that, they will be getting fairly regular use out of the purchase, certainly more than most Console Games. The games offer increased literacy and numeracy, greater patience, encourages a better attention span, and most importantly, if the child goes to Sunday Beginners or is lucky enough to have friends also into it, social skills.

And a 1,500 army need not cost that much, not with Batallions and Battle Forces. Those Puppies give a more or less instant army, which once built and painted, forms a solid core from which it is relatively easy to expand.

I think the word I am looking for is Faith. The Parents I talked to when I worked in a Store, had Faith in the company and the product. They knew we ran *free* events during Holidays, offered *free* after school painting and modelling lessons, and of course, were more than happy to teach their child about all aspects of the Hobby, all of it completely *free*. This curries good favour with Parents. Sure, it's not cheap to buy the models, but to take part in the hobby, it's very good value for money.

enmitee wrote:i dont see how entry cost is high, when one person needs not to buy multiple kits to start out, he can just start out with 1 or 2 kits, like how i started way back.

To properly join the system (not just play a knockaround game with the basic set and a couple of units borrowed from an elder brother) a player needs a rulebook, a codex, an HQ unit, a minimum two Troop units and maybe two to five other units (elites, transports etc.)

Total cost of that army, maybe 1,000 points worth, plus the books is going to be over £150. And it's a small army with very few options.

Kilkrazy wrote:

enmitee wrote:i dont see how entry cost is high, when one person needs not to buy multiple kits to start out, he can just start out with 1 or 2 kits, like how i started way back.

To properly join the system (not just play a knockaround game with the basic set and a couple of units borrowed from an elder brother) a player needs a rulebook, a codex, an HQ unit, a minimum two Troop units and maybe two to five other units (elites, transports etc.)

Total cost of that army, maybe 1,000 points worth, plus the books is going to be over £150. And it's a small army with very few options.

...in addition they'll need paint, brushes, etc. Back to the OP. Perhaps it is impossible for GW to provide fluff and a strong rule set at the same time? I remember reading on GW's website about how the 5th edition emphasized the background story. Personally, I like fluff, but it should not have to be at the expense of well written rules.

Kilkrazy wrote:

enmitee wrote:i dont see how entry cost is high, when one person needs not to buy multiple kits to start out, he can just start out with 1 or 2 kits, like how i started way back.

To properly join the system (not just play a knockaround game with the basic set and a couple of units borrowed from an elder brother) a player needs a rulebook, a codex, an HQ unit, a minimum two Troop units and maybe two to five other units (elites, transports etc.)

Total cost of that army, maybe 1,000 points worth, plus the books is going to be over £150. And it's a small army with very few options.

I think you £150 total might be more than a little...generous there. £30 for the rulebook, £12 or £15 for the Codex/Armybook, and then £50 on the relevant Batallion, then around £8 for a character. £103 isn't really all that much.

Now, compare that to starting up in other Hobbies, and the price is actually quite favourable. When I started out gaming, I didn't have much money at all, £5 a week from the Parents (stingy sods) plus £15 a week from my Paper Round. I could by bits and pieces as I wanted them, but big stuff waited for Birthdays and Christmas. Not much has really changed. GW are putting more and more units in plastic, thus keeping the actual overall cost of collecting any given force down, despite raising prices, which is a damned good trick in anyone's book.

Kilkrazy wrote:
In short it's a big reach to say that shenanigans and malarkey surrounding Andy Chambers's sudden departure produced a rubbish set of rules.

Hey let's leave the Irish lads out of it.

Seriously though, 4th and 5th aren't that different and most of the changes are evolutionary based on playing the game. I can't speak for everyone, but for myself, I can say that 5th edition has been a huge shot in the arm for my gaming, though that could just as easily be my (and my group's) satisfaction with the "5th edition" codices and the balance that they bring relative to each other (thus far).

Personally, I like the buckets of different, I really enjoy the process of army construction, in a physical sense (modeling) and as an abstraction. Even though I miss the old stuff, army lists, writers, models and invalidated units and armies. I have come to love the ever changing world. TO be a veteran player who is satisfied I think you have to do this, that is come to a realization that all armies, innevitably will eventually become obsolete.

I also think you have to love the whole hobby too if you just want to play, you may be irritated when your 1 army is invalidated, perhaps rightly so, but thats just the nature of the game.

Apologies if that sounds fanboyish, guilty. My heart goes out to anyone who had a predominately singular army collection that was invalidated.

Well here's how the entry level pricing works out for Tau.

1 HQ (suit) = £12
2 Elites (suits) = £24
2 FW squads (Troops) = £36
1 D'fish (transport) = £20
1 H'head (Tank) = £25
Rulebook = £30
Codex = £12
Total = £159
Total models = 29, all plastic

Kilkrazy wrote:Amazing that an Italian could do a better job of writing than the British staff!

As an writing instructor it makes a lot of sense to me. Second language learners often speak and write more "according to the rules" than natives, who often speak and write "by feel." Alessio writes more clearly than most of the other dev.s. This isn't a comment on what he writes, just how the product is usually easier to understand- whether one likes it or not.

I have no idea why Chambers left (nor do I particularly care) but the idea that any single person is so integral to GW's dev. team that their departure created the mess that was 4th- well, let's hope that's not how it is.

Neatly avoiding the purchase of money savers, like the Batallion or Army Box.

Batallion contains...http://uk.games-workshop.com/storefront/store.uk?do=Individual&code=99120113011&orignav=10 enough to field a legal army, if the Crisis Suit is used as a Character.

Army Box, £100....contains....bum...seems to have disappeared from the Online store. Oh well, I conded on that one, seeing as you can't get it right now.

SO, on top of your list, you'd need to buy the Hammerhead, 1 Suit (counting the Stealth Team as one of the Elite slots) one box of Fire Warriors, Rulebook and Codex, for a grand total of....£147. And thats assuming your list is a bare minimum for a Tau army. Which it clearly isn't.

Bare minimum, for a game, is 1 HQ and 2 Troops. Batallion covers this and more. Not sure about the Devilfish? Hammerhead sprue is available for £8. So, Codex, RUlebook, and Batallion? £92 all in. Not that bad really.

Is there such a thing as a cheap hobby...
?

Sheep Bothering. That's quite cheap I'd imagine.

Mad Doc Grotsnik wrote:Sheep Bothering. That's quite cheap I'd imagine.

Well, the feed, the legal fees, and the costumes do add up.

I mean, so I hear.

If you're, you know, professional about it.

Hi all.
Actualy the 'wider wargaming hobby 'can be a lot cheaper than the 'GW hobby.'

Full thrust rules FREE to down load from GZG website.
12 space ship minatures from EM4 minatures £2.50.

A full game and minatures for the price of a GW pot of paint!
An extreem example, obviously.
But there are lots of much better value for money options outside of the 'GW brand.'

If you ustilise GW stores range of 'free suport /child minding service', perhaps the extra cost incurred is worth it to you?

TTFN
Lanrak.

I think 5e popularity right now is due to newness not rules. There are just as many crap rules in 5e then there were in 4e. But its new, so people are willing to give it a try.

The biggest issue is price, and prices are only going to keep going up. In one year I don't expect to see an more people playing 5e than I saw playing 4e a year ago.

I disagree. I can tell you that when 4th came out we were splitting our time between warmachine, fantasy and 40k (as well as magic and WoW) and those habits didn't change. Since it has come out, 5th is almost the exclusive game we play.

Yeah, the PP players are hard up for games right now. About the only thing that will cut into 40k right now here locally is Blood Bowl. We've got a great league around here, and every year it makes a ghost otwn of the 40k scene since all the same guys play.

I have to say (yet again) that 5th Edition has rekindled my interest in 40k.

Partly because of the rules, but also, ever since the Daemon book came out, I've been grabbed by the setting once more. It's almost as if GW are trying to back peddle slightly and introduce the more archaic elements once again.

Look at the forthcoming Space Marine book. The sample Ultramarine Company illustration shows an old RTB01 Flamer. Conversion Beamers are back as well. Tiny little touches like that have caught my eye, and are really tempting me to start a new army.

And it looks like I'm going Orky. In fact, now I think about it, it was the feel of the Ork book and the look of the new models that first turned me head..

Mad Doc Grotsnik wrote:Neatly avoiding the purchase of money savers, like the Batallion or Army Box.

Batallion contains...http://uk.games-workshop.com/storefront/store.uk?do=Individual&code=99120113011&orignav=10 enough to field a legal army, if the Crisis Suit is used as a Character.

Army Box, £100....contains....bum...seems to have disappeared from the Online store. Oh well, I conded on that one, seeing as you can't get it right now.

SO, on top of your list, you'd need to buy the Hammerhead, 1 Suit (counting the Stealth Team as one of the Elite slots) one box of Fire Warriors, Rulebook and Codex, for a grand total of....£147. And thats assuming your list is a bare minimum for a Tau army. Which it clearly isn't.

Bare minimum, for a game, is 1 HQ and 2 Troops. Batallion covers this and more. Not sure about the Devilfish? Hammerhead sprue is available for £8. So, Codex, RUlebook, and Batallion? £92 all in. Not that bad really.

Neither force is playable in anything but the barest sense. I started this game nickle and diming an army together on alowence and odd jobs and i quickly learned sub 1000 points games are crap when its all you can do. Also in what world is ~150 pounds (~350$) an affordable entry level item to a child? Not to mention the cost of primer (~10$) paints (~30$) glue (~10$) and by the time your done with everything your around a ~400$ dollar entry cost for a barebones force with no variety and no ability to play in any sort of campaign or tourny format. Compare that to more discretionary forms of hobby spending like on videogames (30-60 per game on a console that will already have been given as a gift) or material items like bikes, skateboards, musical supplies, movies, trading card games and you will find that the point of entry is actually very high. I'm 21 and I don't have the cash to start this hobby, let alone what I had when i was 12 and it was HALF THE GOD DAMN PRICE IT IS NOW.

It's an expensive hobby. You just got used to having lots of money to throw away.

Right, so you are comparing apples and oranges for a start, and then not taking into account the price of the basket for one because all of a sudden, thats a gift....

Not exactly a convincing argument.

The Batallion gives a newcomer a workable force straight off the bat. From there, you can add periodically, like I used to do when I were a nipper.

Now, given that consoles cost around £200 without ANY games, which one is better value, if you spend the same amount on starting?

And in my opinion, to get the most out of any console, you need to keep on buying games, as once completed, it's a rare game that bares playing again.....unlike Wargaming.