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My regular gaming buddy is a SM player and a huge treadhead. He has approx 10k pts of SM stuff and I think 7 Land Raiders at last count.

When the new redeemer/crusader kit was announced, it went straight to the top of his shopping list. After much thought, its still there - but only for hurricane bolters you can [rant] actually put together!!! [/rant]

The redeemer is not an option. Why?

Because of how close you have to get! The flame template is 8" long, but you're measuring from the front of the weapon, not from the front of the tank. So even by placing the flamers on the forward mounts, you'll still end up about 2" back from the front ramp. Hence you have, in effect, a 6" range weapon.

Now, to consider the tactical implications of this.

The biggest threat posed to LR's in 5th ed is when you are at very close range. Short range melta shots, melta bombs, haywire/EMP grenades, MC or PK nobs in CC, etc.

So, in order to use the cool new uber-flamethrowers, you have to get to precisely the position that your enemy wants you to be in!

What makes it worse is that whilst a crusader can move 6", fire its assault cannon (main), all its hurricane bolters (defensive) and use the new PoTMS rule to fire a pintle multimelta at a different (preferably armoured) target, all at 12" range or longer

The redeemer on the other hand has three S6 anti-infantry weapons. The two most destructive are the flamers with an effective 6" range. Since if you move 6" you have to use your PoTMS just to make sure you can fire both of them, you lose the assault cannon shots AND you have to get into point-blank range to do so.


Ultimately, they're both assult tanks. But for all the redeemer's damage potential, the crusader is more versatile, less risky - and would seem to be the better option.


I now invite all attempts to change my mind - if for no other reason than the redeemer LOOKS cool, so its a shame not to use it!

I believe that there is some way through one of the new special characters to have a Redeemer outflank.


The idea of having a Redeemer move on 12" from a flank and use the machine spirit to still fire one of those nasty AP3 templates at a squad while on the other side of the vehicle the squad disembarks and charges seems pretty darn nasty.

I agree this is the best way to get an attack from the redeemer - but you could pull the same trick with a crusader for a more effective result (as it doesn't matter if you opponent is staying away from the edges)

As yakface said, an army led by Kor'sarro Khan can have Redeemers taken as Dedicated Transports (you can take two - one for regular Terminator squads, one for Assault Terminator squads) Outflank. That would be a pretty powerful combination.

You take Redeemers for one simple reason.

If the other guy cannot stop them, when you get into his army, you:

Tank shock him into position on either SIDE of your tank.
You fry two units with S6 AP3 templates.

Not terminators or plague marines?

You're dead.

That's what you do to everybody. It makes for a more single minded force, but it's damned dangerous.

It's a tradeoff army. Can you meltagun me to death? If not, I will flamer you to death.

Plain and simple.

Sounds great. One of the new one trick ponies of the new SM codex. Can't wait to see it, lol.

Good for one-dimensional thinking. But there is hope: contiuum hypothesis.

Hmm stick a librarian with the avenger power and either some termies or a vanguard squad.

Drive up, flame a squad with the redeemer. The squad and the character disembark seperately, the squad assaults one unit, the librarian flames and assaults another unit.

You have the possability of toasting 3 marine squads a turn. Should help reduce the return melta fire.

I'm not terribly impressed with it. When rumors of this tank first started it was thought that you could lob the flamers ala Hellhound. That would have been sick. However with it dedicated as such a close range vehicle, I think that if you have any sort of ranged anti tank the Redeemer is going to get punked before it does anything.

I think it will be a strong option against other marine and necron armies. But things like Tau, Eldar, DE will just pop it early.

Its probably an even split with orks, but I think the hurrican bolters are worse than the flamer templates for them. S9, S10 PKs are always nice.

As an aside, can you put both of the flamers on one side of the Raider? Its got two side doors, and two flamers.... Maybe you could drive up, broadside flame something, and have a squad disembark the other side with a nice LOS blocking wall protecting them from return fire from the portion of the enemy you attacked.

I'll get one, but then I am a Pyro, so it was pretty much a forgone conclusion the moment I heard about it.

Jayden63 wrote:I'm not terribly impressed with it. When rumors of this tank first started it was thought that you could lob the flamers ala Hellhound. That would have been sick. However with it dedicated as such a close range vehicle, I think that if you have any sort of ranged anti tank the Redeemer is going to get punked before it does anything.

I think it will be a strong option against other marine and necron armies. But things like Tau, Eldar, DE will just pop it early.

Its probably an even split with orks, but I think the hurrican bolters are worse than the flamer templates for them. S9, S10 PKs are always nice.

Are you sure? Land raiders are a real pain to put down for just about anyone except perhaps Tau, and someone running more then one of these with smoke is going to most likely make it to your front lines. It will most likely suck against mechanized lists though.

Does anyone know if it can get the pintle mounted multi melta or the anti lance or anti melta armour upgrades?

Running one is not the deal. Running as many as possible LR pattern tanks is the way to go. No army can deal with a few LRs in one round.

ferrous wrote:
Does anyone know if it can get the pintle mounted multi melta or the anti lance or anti melta armour upgrades?

It can get the multi-melta upgrade for 10 points (no-brainer), but not the others.

Keep in mind, as far as the 8" range goes, you can pivot for free, so you can still get the full 8" by charging up, pivoting, and then firing the flamer.

The mental image I get from the technique is drift racing... in a Land Raider.

And, of course, if you do a 6" move, you can fire two guns this way, or one with a 12" move, which seems to be the scariest option; deployed 18" forward, first turn 12" move and smoke, second turn 12" drift and flame means you can hit almost the entire table. Tank shocking just lines up troops for better flaming. On the third turn and beyond, you have a better chance of getting multiple shots, but the key tactic to me seems to be to move 12", drift, and flame a squad, going broadside for better firing angels taking full advantage of the 14/14/14 armor.

The LR's rear armor of 14 removes a lot of the vulnerability to assault other vehicles have -- the soon-to-be-ubiquitous krak can't hurt it, and standard power fists can only glance. And, of course, you still get a squad inside to hop out on that 12" move, either to assault another target or just provide a barrier to anything scary to the LR in assault.

This tank is a serious linebreaker; as Stelek says, anything that's not a Plague Marine or Terminator just f'ing dies. It's non-trivial to take one out, or stop it -- PotMS and Extra Armor combined make it immune to being shaken or stunned (as a shaken effect doesn't stop PotMS), and it can take a weapon destroyed result before it loses the 12" move, drift, single flamer attack.

Beyond the obvious LR spam lists, I'm expecting this thing to be scary in heavily mechanized lists in general; AV11/13 is going to be a lot safer when it can either hide behind AV14 or get AV fire drawn to the AV14 target instead.

It's a points weigh up. Even if you LR gets wrecked, there's a good chance that it's kamikaze drive into enemy forces will recuperate the points instantly. Add into the mix the potential lethality of passengers (as mentioned above) and you could rip the heart out of your opponent by the second turn. It's a limited vehicle, but the sheer potential is there.

Even so, it's a pretty lame excuse for a new model.

It's Malibu Stacy, but she has a new hat!

You may believe you can easily stop Land Raiders, but you can't.

Anything that runs up to kill it...well, dies if you fail to kill it.

This is totally without considering what might be INSIDE the Land Raider.

I faced 3 unoptimized lists at the Ard Boyz, but I gave everyone warning months ago I'd be running the 7 LR army.

I lost less total LR the whole tournament than I had total LR.

It's just as nasty when 4 or 5 show up at 1750-2000 points. They are fully capable of 'becoming' the army, and what's inside is a secondary bonus.

It's like stjohn70's immolator list...there's a second (and deadly) army sitting inside the transports.

Truly the LR rush is coming your way soon.

Chaos isn't as 'good' for moving and firing, but with possession and TL'ed weapons...man do they make strong bunkers.

Anti-Mag wrote:It's a points weigh up. Even if you LR gets wrecked, there's a good chance that it's kamikaze drive into enemy forces will recuperate the points instantly. Add into the mix the potential lethality of passengers (as mentioned above) and you could rip the heart out of your opponent by the second turn. It's a limited vehicle, but the sheer potential is there.

Even so, it's a pretty lame excuse for a new model.

It's Malibu Stacy, but she has a new hat!

Meh.

Old Land Raider Crusader: $60
Current Land Raider: $55
New Land Raider Crusader/Redeemer: $50

New model, existing model redone in all plastic, and a price drop. There are myriad things to complain about GW's pricing and model releases about, but the new LR kit is a step in the right direction, imo.

And the stupid f'ing metal hurricane bolters have been changed! So you get all three variants in a box, could only get better if they shipped the magnets with it.

Stelek wrote:You may believe you can easily stop Land Raiders, but you can't.

9 Broadsides with a little markerlight support does a pretty good job in my limited 5th ed. experience. Admittedly I didn't face 7 Land Raiders at 'Ard Boyz but I did face armies with two and three Land Raiders and a guard list with 3 Russes plus other tanks.

Indeed, 9 Broadsides could stop three Landraiders in one turn. But the remaining Landraiders will hit the enemy front ranks and silence the heavy gun threatening the LRs.

Just curious, how well did your 9 broadside army do at the ard boyz?

Since you were overloading your army in one direction (just as I did), I'm curious how things went.

A unit of 3 Broadsides will typically kill...
3 shots * .75 hits * ((.33 pens * .5 kill) + (.16 glance * .16 kill)) = a whopping .44 Land Raiders. +1 BS from markerlight raises it by .08, +2 BS by a further .05. Yes, I'm talking about expectations, not probability...

So with 9 Broadsides you can stop 1.5 per turn - assuming you can get clean shots on them.

ferrous wrote:And the stupid f'ing metal hurricane bolters have been changed! So you get all three variants in a box, could only get better if they shipped the magnets with it.

Actually, I don't think you get the lascannon/HB bits in the new Redeemer/Crusader box anymore.

Stelek wrote:Just curious, how well did your 9 broadside army do at the ard boyz?

Since you were overloading your army in one direction (just as I did), I'm curious how things went.

Quite well I think. I pretty much wiped the two marine players off the table and faced the eventual guard winner. I lost on KPs in that battle but in my defense it was a pretty heinous terrain setup for dawn of war. He deployed just inside the center line in a huge ruin that stretched along the middle of the table. I on the other hand had one small cluster of ruins in the corner of my board side. I killed plenty of vehicles and had something going with some outflanking kroot and stealth suits but it wasn't enough for the win. I'm still a newbie with tau so perhaps there's something I could have done to salvage the game but I felt backed into a corner right from the get go. I do think that nine broadsides can be very effective, particularly if there is a metagame shift towards AV14.

It can be. I think the problems end up being:

Can your broadsides survive long enough to kill the raiders before they kill you?

Can you kill the raiders before they get ANYTHING marine-type inside over to your side of the board?

Remember, a meltagun's average is still better than your railgun. Those usually penetrate. Railguns usually don't. It's only by a pip, but it counts. 2 meltaguns @ BS4 have a decent chance of popping a raider. 3 Railguns, that's not very good odds. When you have multiple meltagun units running around able to zap raiders, well...makes me more afraid than railguns do. Railguns have the 'got lucky' factor, a little bit better than Fire Prisms but it's still 'got lucky'. Meltaguns you can count on. Multimeltas are just sick and wrong against Land Raiders, as most of them can move from outside of the raiders charge range and zap it with the double hit. Broadsides have issues with morale checks that most of the other heavy anti-tank units don't.

About your game: Getting stuck in a corner is my preference really. You can (and should) be able to refuse flank the other guy and take his army apart bit by bit. If the terrain is placed unfairly (like a big stupid terrain piece in the middle of it) you should address it before picking sides. Usually against guard, outflanking anything without a force designed to outflank, just hands them the game. You need to saturate them with targets they cannot ignore. Kroot and Stealth suits make excellent assault units versus guard gunlines. Just fyi. Run and let him lasrifle you instead of firing heavy weapons at suits in the back. Stealth suits in front for cover saves to the kroot behind, kroot run and stealth suits jump pack forward. Just my 2 cents, hope it helps ya.

Thanks for the advice Stelek. I'll try to keep that in mind. I probably had too much tunnel vision towards avoiding melee and just tried to outshoot the guard player which was problematic when his whole army had 4+ cover. Live and learn.

Re: railguns vs. landraiders. I agree with what you're saying, and If someone pushed up to four to seven raiders it would start to become challenging/impossible to pop them before they hit my lines. At three though I never felt much pressure from them and I don't think I was that hot dice roll wise. I had six markerlights spread though the army and thus was usually able to assist each team once. Then again, most of my opponents seemed intimidated by so many railguns and tried advance their tanks under cover rather than just pushing straight for my lines. Also, on the first turn at least, an immobilize was almost as good as a destroyed for me since I didn't fear the LR's guns that much. As far as meltas go, if I see more AV14 some fusion blaster Piranha's seem like an excellent investment. I'm loathe to stick them as suits though as I feel I give up so much range control that way.

What do you see as the premier LR hunters? Troops with meltaguns? Speeders with MM? Razorbacks/Immolators with MM?

Broadsides have issues with morale checks that most of the other heavy anti-tank units don't.

Ironic you should say that as I had a Broadside squad chased off the board by a Rhino with Laud Hailers.

I know a nine broadside army would have given Me fits. My recurring problem was 2+ saves. My primary asset was people not having enough guns to reliably kill three Monoliths. Just thinking about nine broadsides.... ::shudder::

Drop meltaguns (pod or IG).
Attack bikes first (mobility and 3+ cover save turn 1).
Land Speeders second (mobility + multimelta).
Troops with double plus meltaguns disembarking from transports (that's a 21" death range).
Piranha squadrons (18" range).
Broadsides.

After that, there are the 'lucky' guys:

Hammerheads.
Vindicators.
Fire Prisms being twin-linked.
Monoliths.
Lascannons.

After that...yeah, good luck. Remember the squishy scene from Aliens? Yep, that is your army.

Ok if you get to hit on 4+ (or autohit) with Nightbringer, a Bloodthirster w/S8, a Carnifex (especially a CC fex), a Warboss, the new Space Marine ubermensch (you should know who he is by now...hint: he's yellow lol), or a Wraithlord...yeah, you also have a good shot. Then thank your opponent for letting you kill his LR.

What really does crush Land Raiders and you can't avoid it AND you better have something inside that LR to hurt them before they crush you? Seer Council and Nob Council. Holy hell do they ever. Even needing 6's, they're going to get 3-5 penetrating hits and that usually means you be dead.

Did I leave anybody out?

You can suicide crisis suits near LR all day long. Might even work. Then...the suits die. Not so happy. So I left them out.

Stelek wrote:You can suicide crisis suits near LR all day long. Might even work. Then...the suits die. Not so happy. So I left them out.

Then again, I'll happily trade my 58 point suicide crisis suit for your 250 point landraider. And Thirsters without S8 still have a decent chance of doing damage - about 1 pen and 1 glance needing 4s. Your point is taken though, and facing that many LRs is tough.

Of course, if you have 5+ LRs in your army, if a significant number of them do get popped your will have little left in the army to do damage. Maybe a couple hard squads, but I'd like to think that the extra ~1500 points your opponent has can be useful against those squishy insides.

Thats more or less the point. Yes, you can pop raiders with enough force. The problem is that you WILL NOT stop most of them before they are in your lines, burninating the countryside and assault cannon-ing the peasants. Its a bit like an armoured Trogdor alpha-strike.