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You can try and trade a full crisis squad for a land raider.

You will still probably not kill it, and you have a nasty chance of scattering away (or running the risk of a mishap at such a short distance).

Personally I'd never do it, and trust to my railguns. If they can't kill it....well, deep striking crisis suits that are there just to kill raiders, are a big weakness against most other armies.

Railguns wrote:Thats more or less the point. Yes, you can pop raiders with enough force. The problem is that you WILL NOT stop most of them before they are in your lines, burninating the countryside and assault cannon-ing the peasants. Its a bit like an armoured Trogdor alpha-strike.

So, do you think you need a full house of redeemer to guarantee the burnination or is a single one mixed in enough. I'd be inclined to think they'll be much better in multiples.

Stelek wrote:well, deep striking crisis suits that are there just to kill raiders, are a big weakness against most other armies.

I agree, I think Piranhas can do the same job more reliably and are much stronger against other armies out there. Why chance it?

Broadsides need not KILL a LandRaider on Turn 1. They need to stop it. Immo or Dest results work fine. Besides, you also neglected the glances in your prior math. Do The Math Properly.

Broadside Expectations to Immo or Dest:
3/4 * (1/3p*2/3 + 1/6g*1/3) = 3/4 * 7/18 = 7/24 stopped LR **per BS3 Broadside**
... and BS4 brings your expectation to just over 1 (28/27) per 3 Broadsides.

RailHead Expectations to Immo or Dest:
2/3 * 7/18 = 7/27. Good luck stopping a Rush with that, at less than 1 per turn of maxed out RailHeads. You'll definitely earn your points back over the course of a game, but "earning your points" is a 3e and 4e concept. Not sure it has as much value in 5e except to earn Draw games.

As a side note: I had been contemplating denial games in 5e with massive Stealth squads and RailHeads, but does the resurgence Cover Saves make a central castle of PR/MT Broadsides attractice once again?

Nikkenryu Tau, dead in v4, may live once again in 5e? Whoa.

3/4 * (1/3p*2/3 + 1/6g*1/3) = 3/4 * 7/18 = 7/24 stopped LR **per BS3 Broadside**
... and BS4 brings your expectation to just over 1 (28/27) per 3 Broadsides.

Proper math: q = 7/24 stopping LR.
Then (1-q)^3 not stopping LR by 3 Broadsides and so 1-(1-q)^3 stopping by 3 Broadsides.
That's about 0.65.

Yes. I like my stuff to work as expected at least 2/3 of the time. I'd love it to work 90% of the time, and I can increase that reliability by adding more redundancy.

Indeed, a probability of 2/3 is quite nice, everything below is a bit a gamble.

I think anyone who's ever run an immolator or flamer sitting in a rhino knows how easy it actually is to get into range.

And after extensive use of flamers in 5th edition, I've come to realize that the end of a flamer template is very, very fat. Even if something is at "the edge" of your range, you can often still get 3-4 models with it. Since you can shoot two different targets, the LR Redeemer can basically drive between units and kill 8 models or so even if the units are 18-20" apart, plus dumping whatever's in the front out to wreak havoc with a third unit.

It might not sound like much, but one model being able to kill 7-8 has always been, for me, pretty good. I've had ordnance weapons do less over the course of entire games.

Spellbound wrote:I think anyone who's ever run an immolator or flamer sitting in a rhino knows how easy it actually is to get into range.

And after extensive use of flamers in 5th edition, I've come to realize that the end of a flamer template is very, very fat. Even if something is at "the edge" of your range, you can often still get 3-4 models with it. Since you can shoot two different targets, the LR Redeemer can basically drive between units and kill 8 models or so even if the units are 18-20" apart, plus dumping whatever's in the front out to wreak havoc with a third unit.

It might not sound like much, but one model being able to kill 7-8 has always been, for me, pretty good. I've had ordnance weapons do less over the course of entire games.

Ding ding ding winna winna!

Railguns wrote:As an aside, can you put both of the flamers on one side of the Raider? Its got two side doors, and two flamers.... Maybe you could drive up, broadside flame something, and have a squad disembark the other side with a nice LOS blocking wall protecting them from return fire from the portion of the enemy you attacked.

I don't know if I love you or hate you.......

I don't recall ever seeing a rule that you had to put them on different sides.....

Stelek wrote:Drop meltaguns (pod or IG).
Attack bikes first (mobility and 3+ cover save turn 1).
Land Speeders second (mobility + multimelta).
Troops with double plus meltaguns disembarking from transports (that's a 21" death range).
Piranha squadrons (18" range).
Broadsides.

After that, there are the 'lucky' guys:

Hammerheads.
Vindicators.
Fire Prisms being twin-linked.
Monoliths.
Lascannons.

What about DE, or do regular LRs get the anti-lance armor upgrade? Dark lances alone aren't great, but with the number of lance weapons DE can put on the table, I'd imagine the damage could add up quickly.

whats not to like about the redeemer?
will be using it as a base for a wagon for da boyz, and the flamers are going on a dread

but on the subject of it, its the best assult vehicle, drive in (over anything in your way) set fire to anything still standing there, drop off a unit, then run about toasting anything that irritates you.

if i have to fight one then ill be taking a large unit of tankbustas, 3 bomb squigs and 2 tank hammers then hope for the best.