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Quick question #1 -
I know the RAW is relatively clear that you may only assault a unit that you have shot during the shooting phase...but what if that unit no longer exists (i.e. you blew it to smithereens), and there are other valid assault targets in range? I didn't see any mention of this situation, basically, if you follow the exact wording of the rules, it creates a big penalty to a unit for massacring another in shooting. For example:

CC
CC BB
.... BB

A X A A A A

My fire dragons (A) can shoot at Predator C (<6" away) during the shooting phase.

If they fail to kill the target with shooting, they can then charge Pred C, sweeping up Rhino B sitting nearby into the mess and taking out both with melta-bombs.

If they succeed to kill Predator C, then they must sit there like idiots staring at Rhino B if following the rules to the letter.

Basically, if they want to make sure they get a real chance at both, they should just forget about shooting.

This would go for any unit you massacre in shooting though, not just vehicles.

Also, question #2
Say Tank Hunter Exarch (X) in the situation above had a flamer able to burn the butts of both tanks (STR6), does he need to specially aim the flamer template at the middle of the target model or can he move it to do the most damage? The rules only talk about templates against units, not against vehicles specifically.

I ask because I have a buddy that just loves to use his rhinos to make walls and this situation came up twice already, with him throwing a fit and quitting the game the second time.

Well, thats the rule, and it was put in place to limit the power of units, your Fire Dragon's being an excellent example.

Dedicated HTH units are only effective in the HTH phase. Shooting units are only effective in the Shooting phase, for the most part. Why should this be any different?

Fire Dragons are a very odd unit, as they have such a specific, and arguably limited task, that of knacking enemy armour at short range. Yet, they are cheap enough that having taken down a single Battle Tank, most of their cost has been recouped in damage. So why should they be able to take out two of my tanks in a single turn?

As to point 2, nice try with the symantics, but sadly no cigar. A vehicle is a unit. Otherwise, strictly speaking, you could NEVER target them, as you target units, thus making them utterly invincible if you want to play it that way. Template (as in Flame, in case anyone gets confused) weapons must attempt to cover as much of the Target unit as possible. Thus, aiming at the closest, and having the template then go on to hit another tank because of the angle you placed it at is not allowed. This ethic is carried over into Blast Weapons, as sure, with the scatter you can hit mutliple Tanks, but unless the hole is touching one of them, it's not going to do a great deal.

Mad Doc Grotsnik wrote:Well, thats the rule, and it was put in place to limit the power of units, your Fire Dragon's being an excellent example.

Dedicated HTH units are only effective in the HTH phase. Shooting units are only effective in the Shooting phase, for the most part. Why should this be any different?

Fire Dragons are a very odd unit, as they have such a specific, and arguably limited task, that of knacking enemy armour at short range. Yet, they are cheap enough that having taken down a single Battle Tank, most of their cost has been recouped in damage. So why should they be able to take out two of my tanks in a single turn?

That's why it doesn't make any sense regarding that logic...

If the FD don't shoot and only assault, they can kill both tanks. If they shoot, they most likely will kill just one.

Apply it the other way with Assault Marines also, if they accidently wipe out a squad with pistol shooting, they must stand there like idiots. If they happen to miss a guy in a building with shooting, leaving one alive, he's free to sweep his assault marines into the building and assault multiple units holed up in there.

Not making any sense to me. A completely dead unit should cease to exist, thereby nullifying any rules about them as if they were alive.

A similar question came up the other night with out group. What if the destroyed unit was a dedicated transport? Can you charge the newly disembarked models? The argument here is that the transport is part of the unit. I'm dubious...

Recklessfable wrote:A similar question came up the other night with out group. What if the destroyed unit was a dedicated transport? Can you charge the newly disembarked models? The argument here is that the transport is part of the unit. I'm dubious...

That was actually answered in the FAQ, yes you can.

Recklessfable wrote: The argument here is that the transport is part of the unit.

Not a very successful argument, as it's not true.

The Transport is a part of the same Force Org slot. It's not a part of the unit. It's a completely separate unit.

PolecatEZ wrote:That was actually answered in the FAQ, yes you can.

Which FAQ was that?

insaniak wrote:

Recklessfable wrote: The argument here is that the transport is part of the unit.

Not a very successful argument, as it's not true.

The Transport is a part of the same Force Org slot. It's not a part of the unit. It's a completely separate unit.

PolecatEZ wrote:That was actually answered in the FAQ, yes you can.

Which FAQ was that?

Not in the FAQ, sorry... page 67 of the main rule book in the section on transport vehicles, the "Note:" just above the gray area...should straighten things out.

Still, the answer is "Yes you can."

PolecatEZ wrote:Not in the FAQ, sorry... page 67 of the main rule book in the section on transport vehicles, the "Note:" just above the gray area...should straighten things out.

Thank you... now that you've pointed it out, I remember coming across that rule when the book came out, but had completely forgotten about it.

So yes, being able to shoot a unit that has bailed from their transport is the sole exception to the 'can only charge what you shot' rule.

What if you shot a template or blast that hits more than one unit?

You still have to *target* a single unit. Just because the shot scatters does not suddenly give you a choice of assaultees.

Hmmmm.

The wording in the assault rules is ambiguous enough to cause a grey area in the rules.

". . .a unit that fired in the Shooting phase can only assault the unit that it shot at -- it cannot assault a different unit to the one it previously shot at."



However, the stipulation is the enemy unit that was 'shot at', not hit, damaged, etc.

I think only the target unit would truly qualify under that concept. Yes, other enemy units can end up being hit by the shooting, but the unit that was shot at was the target unit.


It definitely could be more clear though.

PolecatEZ wrote:If the FD don't shoot and only assault, they can kill both tanks. If they shoot, they most likely will kill just one.

Then you would be wise to assault both and not shoot....

PolecatEZ wrote:Apply it the other way with Assault Marines also, if they accidently wipe out a squad with pistol shooting, they must stand there like idiots. If they happen to miss a guy in a building with shooting, leaving one alive, he's free to sweep his assault marines into the building and assault multiple units holed up in there.

It is only a freak chance that assault marines would wipe out a unit by shooting. If you see this regularly, you are doing something wrong. Consider shooting with less guys from the unit (yes you can do that) or not shooting at all and simply assaulting the unit.

There are always ways to get units into assault, but you have to make them.

Often a player has to choose whether to go for it in the shooting phase or assault. A squad with rapid fire weapons can do one or the other. In the fire dragons example, you have to decide whether to go for the more likely kill with shooting, or assault two tanks. The fusion guns are AP1, so shooting improves your kill odds. If the tanks moved you may or may not hit in assault, but you'll resolve the attacks against rear armor. If you do destroy them in assault you'll probably have a little more cover from certain directions.

Calculating players will weigh the pros and cons briefly, and go from there. The dice and distance judging are variables. That's the drama that makes playing the game fun. Will the Fire Dragons survive in no mans land after melting the Land Raider to slag? Will they kill half their unit if the tank explodes from meltabombs? Tune in next week, same Bat time, same Bat channel!

The only exception to assaulting the unit you shot at, is that you can assault the former passengers of a transport if you destroy the transport with your shooting.

you can multi charge as many units as you want. The only rule is that you must charge the unit you shot at. So following the rules you move the closest to closest (the closest fire dragon to the predator) then you follow the rules for charging. Every model must try to get into base to base contact (as long as you started your charge and have one model engaged with the unit you shot at evryone else can charge what ever you want) if a model cant make it into base contact it must attempt to be within 2" of a friendly model, after that models just have to maintain coherency. So in short a typical 5 man fire dragon squad isnt going to be doing many if any muti charges, now take a good 15-30 boy mob and they typically engage 2-3 units. When I play snikrot and 15 kommandos, if I see a couple of vehicles sitting close to eachother, I will string them out (up to 30" if need be) Now if I fire (I usually only fire at troops) I have one model charge the unit I shot at, now that everyone is strung out I have to try to make it in to base contact (which is pretty easy because I am usually only a inch or 2 away.) and can charge what ever unit I wish as long as I maintain coherency (again easier to do with 15+ models as opposed to 5 models) The only difficulty is when you wipe out the squad you shot at, then your screwed. So the lesson is doent shoot if you think your going to destroy your target. Also multi charges are good to keep your unit alive, charge most of your models at one unit (the one you want to wipe out) then have a model or 2 enage another unit. When you wipe the first unit (and lose a model or 2 from the second) you consoidate into the second squad you engaged (because they didnt wipe out your unit, you consolidate into eachother).

Something often overlooked, that actually makes charging multiple units harder than it may at first seem...

da gob smaka wrote: So following the rules you move the closest to closest (the closest fire dragon to the predator) then you follow the rules for charging. Every model must try to get into base to base contact ...

...and into coherency with a friendly model that has already charged from the same unit.

You can't simply move the first model, then move the second off in an entirely different direction to assault a second unit. The second model has to be in coherency with the first, in base contact with a free enemy model if possible.

of course, every model that can make into CC with the squad must try but, like I said a small unit is going to have difficulty doing this, a large one however can do it fairly easily, especially if you string them out (as oppossed to a big pile) then they can only move 6" those that can, must those that cant can engage other units. So as I said earlier a small 5 man fire dragon squad will be hard pressed to engage multi units, unless you line them up



x 2" x 2" x 2" x 2" x 2"

6"
VEH./unit VEH./unit


usually the guy in the middle is there to maintain coherency


as compared to

x x x x x x x x x x x x x x x (and so on)





6" or less


VEH./ SQUAD VEH./ SQUAD VEH./ SQUAD



obviously not everyone can make it 6" to the target shot at, so they can move into other squads, with a model or 2 used to maintain coherecny.

I hate how the forums compress everything together, it makes it hard to understand the diagram.

You can fire a flamer so it hits multiple tanks, provided you are also hitting "as much of the target as possible". Basically it has to be on the opposite side, in a convenient position, to hit two tanks with a flamer.

The blast weapons, though, are a bit different - the hole has to be over the hull, and that's it. You're welcome to put the blast anywhere you line inside that vehicle template, though, I believe. Meaning you can position it to hit the tank and some troops nearby, or if it's a weak tank you can hope the half strength blast can damage the one it grazes.

The "balance" in this is that if you put it at the very edge like that, a scatter of even 1" in almost any direction will make your shot ineffective.