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From another thread, in Tactics:

Sniper drones are amazing {...} you use these to guarantee cover to the suits or firewarriors behind them. This is especially good if your crisis teams jsj over the snipers.

Gentlemen, this quote leads me to ask the following questions:

1) Can units gain a cover save from other units that cannot be targeted due to the Stealth Field Generator?
- note that in v4 you ignored Stealth units (Sniper drones, Stealth Suits) for target priority test purposes

2) Are there any "blocks twice my height" style rules when it comes to cover saves from intervening troops?

3) Do intervening unit cover saves work the same way as barrels, fences, piles of rubble, and other cover?
- for example, if I am standing DIRECTLY BEHIND a row of barrels, I count as being in cover from shooting and defending an obstacle when charged, though the barrels do NOT grant my targets a cover save from my shooting. If I am standing DIRECTLY BEHIND another row of troops (kneeling troops, shorter troops, whatever) do I obtain a cover save from shooting, while not granting my targets a cover save from intervening units?

-JTS

Of course.

Target priority means nothing.

No, just block a foot and you get a cover save.

If you read where it says intervening units...if you have friends in the way and trace LOS through them (literally) the other guy will probably get a cover save.

That's why crouching (IG), small (grots, swarms), and laying down models (snipers) can give YOU saves but not the other guy.

All of this is in the rules. If you'd prefer I give you rules quotes lemme know.

That's why crouching (IG), small (grots, swarms), and laying down models (snipers) can give YOU saves but not the other guy.

I'd love a rule quote on this to clarify, because the way I parse what you just said is contradictory.

Not to put too fine a point on it, but please use Sniper Drones and Broadsides as the "Friendly" units, and a Lascannon Dev Squad squad as the "Enemy" unit.

What if the "Enemy" unit is a squad of Necron Heavy Destroyers behind a unit of Scarabs (swarm)?

Units firing through other units (friendly or enemy) - target is in cover.

Page 21 in rulebook - "If the target is partially hidden from the firer's view by other models, it receives a 4+ cover save in the same way as if it were behind terrain"

Additionally:

Page 22 in rulebook - "Firing through units or area terrain" -

"if a model fires through...the gaps between models in an intevening unit, the target is in cover, even if it is completely visable to the firer.

The kicker, when it comes to your Destroyer/scarabs example:

"Note that this does not apply if the shots go over the area terrain or unit rather than through it..."

Since you're drawing these as true LOS...if the scarabs aren't tall enough to ever block the view to the destroyers, the destroyers should not get any kind of cover save.

This also causes different gaming you can do, as Stelek pointed too.

TLOS is drawn from models eye view. You place crouching fire warriors directly in front of some broadsides. Since you only need to block a foot or something of the target (the broadsides) they will get a cover save from the Lascannon Dev Squad (the firewarriors are guaranteed to be able to cover a broadside foot).

The opposite will probably not be true. Viewing from the broadsides head, they will be shooting over the crouching fire warriors and will have a complete unobstructed view of the Lascannon Devs. Yes, we are firing through a unit - but height wise, we're actually firing over it. This is very common for Vehicles, but seems like it can be done for infantry as well with the right size differences and positioning. I've used fire warriors instead of stealth suits because stealth suits may be too big to do this. Old style stealth suits would probably work great.

The key is just because you get cover from a unit doesn't mean that they do, or vice versa, from that reading of the rules. I've been wrong before though so YMMV.

In the end, I don't think it really matters. It sounds like you're trying to setup some kind of new version of Nikkenryu Tau...which I have 0 experience with since I've only played 4th and 5th edition. In the end, you can get yourself cover saves with your other guys, including stealth suits, and not necessarily give up cover saves to your opponent. But he will almost definitely have other ways to get his cover saves, so it will likely be moot.

1) Can units gain a cover save from other units that cannot be targeted due to the Stealth Field Generator?
- note that in v4 you ignored Stealth units (Sniper drones, Stealth Suits) for target priority test purposes

By RAW, yes. The rule simply says that models blocking LoS confer a cover save. It does not say those models need to be not theoretically invisible.

2) Are there any "blocks twice my height" style rules when it comes to cover saves from intervening troops?

No. The sighting is done on TLoS so if you have a unit on a step and they can clearly see over the intervening unit, it does not confer a cover save.

3) Do intervening unit cover saves work the same way as barrels, fences, piles of rubble, and other cover?

No. That exception applies to pieces of linear terrain, not units.

Whoa. Okay, I get it now. In order to gain a cover save, some PORTION of a model must be obstructed from the FIRING MODEL's line of sight.

Crouching gunlines of FCW in front of Kroot or anything else = WIN.

Crouching Sniper Drones in front of Broadsides and old-school Stealth Suits in front of Crisis Suits is even more bitch.

Thanks for the answers and pointers!

They also count as being in difficult terrain when assaulted. Since as you approach them, you will hit terrain at the same time you hit them, you need to take a difficult terrain test to charge them.

Thread Not-Quite-Necromancy.

Reading the BBB, I notice that any unit firing through the gaps of ANY INTERVENING UNIT provide cover saves to the target, even if no TLOS is blocked.

This would seem to go against the "needs to block some part of the model" reasoning given above, and I would have to conclude that a Broadside firing over the heads of a FCW gunline directly in front of it would, in fact, entitle the targets to a 4+ cover save.

Discussion?

JTS1486 wrote:Thread Not-Quite-Necromancy.

Reading the BBB, I notice that any unit firing through the gaps of ANY INTERVENING UNIT provide cover saves to the target, even if no TLOS is blocked.

This would seem to go against the "needs to block some part of the model" reasoning given above, and I would have to conclude that a Broadside firing over the heads of a FCW gunline directly in front of it would, in fact, entitle the targets to a 4+ cover save.

Discussion?

In correct, The rule is if LOS passes through...you get a cover save. LOS is measured from the eyes of the model. If the model is tall enough that the LOS passes over intervening models (so that none of the target models head, body, arms or legs are or would be potentially blocked) then the target does not get a cover save. If I have a carnifex shooting over a squad of guants and I can see all of my victims body, then you get no cover save as I have shot over my guants not through them. This is why taking the high ground is all the more important in 5th.

Page 22, under "Exceptions", 4th bullet point - Firing through units or area terrian. Read the whole paragraph. I quoted the relevant part in my first answer - "Note that this does not apply if shots go over the area terrain or unit rather than through it". At issue is defining "over" and "through", I guess. There is currently a YMDC up about it with some nifty diagrams by Yak.

http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/list/219003.page

Either the "top" of the unit is defined by the heads of its members, or we are back to magic cylinder.

Broadsides are somewhat taller than Fire Warriors, so given a particular separation between the Broadsides, the FWs and the target, a cover save may or may not be granted.

Especially if you modeled you FW in the kneeling position as has been previously postulated.