Forum adverts like this one are shown to any user who is not logged in. Join us by filling out a tiny 3 field form and you will get your own, free, dakka user account which gives a good range of benefits to you: No adverts like this in the forums anymore. Times and dates in your local timezone. Full tracking of what you have read so you can skip to your first unread post, easily see what has changed since you last logged in, and easily see what is new at a glance. Email notifications for threads you want to watch closely. Being a part of the oldest wargaming community on the net. If you are already a member then feel free to login now.

I play Daemons, my friend play SM I use Fateweaver he uses a Liberian you can not re-roll re-rolls ok so how do we solve this brain buster? Roll your saves and it does not matter what you get, pick up all the dice again and re-roll? lol Please someone let me know, I sure the FAQ will be they cancel each other out but for now we need a ruling!

Its kind of like your chocolate is in my peanut butter, no your peanut butter is in my chocolate but not in a good way

Dr_Chin wrote:I play Daemons, my friend play SM I use Fateweaver he uses a Liberian you can not re-roll re-rolls ok so how do we solve this brain buster? Roll your saves and it does not matter what you get, pick up all the dice again and re-roll? lol Please someone let me know, I sure the FAQ will be they cancel each other out but for now we need a ruling!

Its kind of like your chocolate is in my peanut butter, no your peanut butter is in my chocolate but not in a good way

The interatction of both positive and negative rerolls is not addressed anywhere, so as written your interpretation is indeed correct, of course its simpler to just let the first roll stand.

Jack

What we have here, are two different types of re-roll.

One is beneficial, the other is detrimental. Something similar came up in Warhamer, where one item allowed the re-rolling of missed hits, and the other forced hits to be re-rolled.....

The way we figured it was simple. Apply all beneficial re-rolls first, then the detrimental ones.

Ergo, here, Fateweaver gets his re-rolled saves. Null Field then causes him to re-roll his saves.

Strictly speaking, you are re-rolling first your fails, then your successes. These are two different dice pools. I thank you!

firstly, I should ensure real quick that everyone is aware that fateweaver applies to ALL saves (armor/cover), while null zone only affects invulns. Anyway, moving on.

Strictly speaking, what you're doing is rolling all of your saves, then picking up all of the successes (fateweaver), then picking up all of the failures (null zone), and look. you have all your dice back in your hand! So yes, it's logically much easier to just let the first roll stand. Be sure to clear this BEFOREHAND with your fellow player, don't want him smashing his land raider over your head when you roll well and don't pick any of them up

Got to love the rules when the contradict themselves! Also what’s up with the price increase??? Gas is going down if they did it like a year ago I would be ok with it but now that it’s going down, it’s unjustified. But that is an argument for another thread!

Is there any interaction here with the basic rules for rerolls? Primarily that you cannot reroll a reroll?

You cancel both effects out (re-roll of inv saves).

You don't really re-roll twice.

Its total anarchy!! People are re-rolling re-rolls F the system!!

“The next thing you know, there's money missing off the dresser, and your daughter's knocked up. I seen it a hundred times.” Tommy Boy!

Uh, the Oracle of Infinity rule allows Fateweaver and all friendly units within 6" to re-roll all failed armour, invulnerable, and cover saves.

The Null Zone requires all enemy units within 24" to re-roll successful invulnerable saves.

And no single dice can be re-rolled more than once regardless of the source.

Therefore if some unit in such a situation as it is affected by both the Oracle of Infinity and the Null Zone, then you roll any invulnerable saves, re-rolling the successful ones for Null Zone, and re-rolling the failed ones for Oracle of Fate.

Example.

Daemon Unit A has Sv5+ and is within both the Null Zone and the Oracle of Fate when it comes under fire and takes six wounds. Six invulnerable saves at 5+ are rolled and the results are 1, 3, 3, 4, 5, 6.

Four saves have been failed. They are 1, 3, 3, 4. The Oracle of Fate is applied to these saves and they are re-rolled.

Two saves have been successful. They are 5 & 6. The Null Zone is applied to these saves and they are re-rolled.

Once all the dice have been re-rolled, the final results are 1, 1, 2, 5, 6, 6.

Three saves have failed. They are 1, 1, 2. They cannot be rerolled, because the universal rule on re-rolls over-rules the Oracle of Fate.

Three saves have been successful. They are 5, 6, 6. They cannot be rerolled, because the universal rule on re-rolls over-rules the Null Zone.

Umm yeah like I said roll dont look and pick up your dice and roll again. lol

You roll the dice, all the successfull ones you reroll, all the unsusscessful ones you reroll, there fore you roll once (it's a random event doing it twice is just a waste of time!

Reaver83 wrote:You roll the dice, all the successfull ones you reroll, all the unsusscessful ones you reroll, there fore you roll once (it's a random event doing it twice is just a waste of time!

Nurglitch also seems to miss out, but I chose you to quote because you wrote it simply.

The rule system breaks down when there is a conflict between two rules--namely, no re-rolling of re-rolls and null zone forcing you to re-roll re-rolls.

GW has to FAQ it.

Oh and you skipped a step--where you roll unsuccessful saves (Kairos) then SAVE, and should re-roll the re-roll.

I know GW will just say the powers cancel each other out, and they won't go with Nurglitch's system because it's totally against KISS.

Except that there is no conflict between rules here.

The main rules, on p.2 of the rulebook, prohibit dice from being re-rolled more than once

The Null Zone does not force you to re-roll dice that have already been re-rolled. It forces you to re-roll successful results that were not themselves re-rolls.

Likewise the Oracle of Fate does not force you to re-roll dice that have already been re-rolled. It forces you to re-roll failed results that were not themselves re-rolls.

Here's a diagram I slapped up to illustrate how the Re-rolls, Oracle of Fate, and Null Zone rules interact.

by far Nurglitch's solution is more logic ,you cant reroll one dice twice so the failed inv saves go with Fateweaver and the successed inv saves go with Nullzone. However with my knowledge of math the average result(chance to fail and success) of two solutions will be the same.

We discussed this at length and its eaiser then you think

Initial roll of 20 saves 15 make the save 5 fail

the 15 success reroll keeping the result.
8 still succeed
the 5 failure reroll keeping the results
3 now succeed
add up and you have the results\
11 success 9 failures total.

since you can't re-roll rerolls you simply apply the effects of each on the original dice roll.

or atleast that is how we interpreted it.

ED209 wrote:by far Nurglitch's solution is more logic ,you cant reroll one dice twice so the failed inv saves go with Fateweaver and the successed inv saves go with Nullzone. However with my knowledge of math the average result(chance to fail and success) of two solutions will be the same.

The results are indentical (note: this is not the case with Mad Dok's solution at the begining, that does affect the ratios of success:failures, and there would be nothing wrong with that being the rule, I'm just not seeing anything that would verify that it is) so anyone interested in speed of play ought to roll once and keep those results.

Jack

Nurglitch wrote:Uh, the Oracle of Infinity rule allows Fateweaver and all friendly units within 6" to re-roll all failed armour, invulnerable, and cover saves.

The Null Zone requires all enemy units within 24" to re-roll successful invulnerable saves.

And no single dice can be re-rolled more than once regardless of the source.

Therefore if some unit in such a situation as it is affected by both the Oracle of Infinity and the Null Zone, then you roll any invulnerable saves, re-rolling the successful ones for Null Zone, and re-rolling the failed ones for Oracle of Fate.

Wow, I think that makes a lot of sense, I was confused before, but that made it clear.

Fortune and Nullzone is the harder problem it would seem, at first I thought both situations were the same.

check this logic:

Assume there are five models with a 5+ invulnerable save and they are within the radius of Kairos' re-roll power. All five models take a wound in one phase...

by the odds three fail their saves and two pass their saves

The three that failed their save re roll and one makes it


the two that passed made their saves have to re-roll; odds are they both fail the re-roll

End result are four dead

G

Augustus:

What's the problem with the interaction between Null Zone and Fortune?

I think everyone who's complaining is just demonstrating that they don't enjoy rolling dice.

Unless you have spot on average luck the first time that this comes up, or you've had the foresight to mention the situation to your opponent, you might as well resign yourself to reroll the whole batch.

Absolute heresy. People love rolling dice, the more the better. That's why GW dice are so expensive, to deter over-dose.

Gee, it makes so much sense now.

Just need a chart.

This in the land of 'KP's are simpler than VP's cause maths is hard'.

:S

I'm with Nurglitch here, and I don't think it even needs a chart.

You cannot re-roll a re-roll and each power allows to re-roll different dice.

One power makes you re-roll the successes and the other the failures. Therefore you simply pick up the dice and roll them all again.

I am not arguing with the logic presented.

I am arguing that GW won't rule it that way.

I also agree with Nurglitch. This came up before when we were discussing a fortuned farseer who suffers a PotW attack that his ghosthelm fails to nullify (Perils requires that he reroll a successful invul save, fortune lets him reroll an unsuccessful one).

Nurglitch wrote:Absolute heresy. People love rolling dice, the more the better. That's why GW dice are so expensive, to deter over-dose.

30 ork boyz charge and, yes after you react it looks like they are all in CC. That's 4 attacks each--on the charge--for a total of 120. Jimmy, will you have the forklift bring over that pallet with my dice tray on it?

You love it.

Stelek wrote:I am not arguing with the logic presented.

I am arguing that GW won't rule it that way.

But you are argueing that GW will rule that they cancel eachother out aren't you? Well it really makes no difference, it's just a simplification of the rule so that instead of having to make a meaningless roll before picking the dice up and rolling again you just take the first one as is.

It doesn't matter how many times you flip a coin and it comes up heads, there's still only a 50% chance that the next flip will come up tails. Similarly it makes no difference which roll you accept (from a theoretical standpoint, obviously once you physically resolve them there are good chances that they wont be exactly the same).

So why is it such a travesty that GW is going to simplify the method for applying this?

Yes, because I think it is meaningless and will lead to bad blood in games.

I don't think it's a travesty, I think (my opinion!) they won't give out a FAQ on this without prodding (lack of playtesting) for what...six months? A year?

Either way it'll take too damn long and it should not.