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They do have Hammer of Wrath though, that's still something. Remember that if you use Scout you can't charge at the first turn, so keep to your Radium Carbines. I too like the idea of mounted gunmen but I love the vibe of a dude charging with a lance at light tanks or hordes of miscreants on top of his mount in the 41th millennium

The fact they can still take a Phosphor Serpenta helps. They are still Dragoons that way, to me. Perhaps I would be happier with them if there was a way to get them a Transonic Lance. That would be epic.

Ultimately, I will probably run them a time or two and see what sort of results I get out of either setup. They would just be a part of my add-on force for Crimson Fists, who are already a shooty army. A little melee wouldn't hurt (I already have a squad of Ruststalkers as well).

They really should have made the Jezzail Heavy 3.

What is the best headcount for Dragoons? I've literally heard every number thrown around.

Start with two and run them separate of each other. After that increase them in numbers if you like them. Maybe buy a single Balistrarii so that you can play the formation if you want to.
And if you like them as much as I do you might want to go for 6.

Personnal problem is that they are cheap in points but not in money, I'd run more of them if I could !

In regards to Dragoons I have run x12 total extensively in all of my games thusfar to great success. I run them in either Squads of x2 or x3 as it gives my opponents even more targets to shoot and ensures that I am able to get as many into combat as possible. I only ever run them with Taser Lances and Phosphor Serpentas as the Sniper really is not worth it no matter how you slice it. I also have x6 Ironstriders with TL-Autocannons running in support (Lascannons are to expensive and my army is saturated with Haywire) and have found they do a great job at killing anything except Heavy Armor.

 gmaleron wrote:
In regards to Dragoons I have run x12 total extensively in all of my games thusfar to great success. I run them in either Squads of x2 or x3 as it gives my opponents even more targets to shoot and ensures that I am able to get as many into combat as possible. I only ever run them with Taser Lances and Phosphor Serpentas as the Sniper really is not worth it no matter how you slice it. I also have x6 Ironstriders with TL-Autocannons running in support (Lascannons are to expensive and my army is saturated with Haywire) and have found they do a great job at killing anything except Heavy Armor.

Yeah, I've seen your army. Very impressive. It's really hard to get good information about how to field these guys in larger numbers because of how pricey they are. I plan on buying 8 kits and building either 8 or 6 Dragoons. Not only because there seems to be universal agreement that they are probably one of the most standout Skitarii units, but because they're really cool.

Would you say running them deployed in a Skitarii Maniple is superior to holding them in reserve in a Cavalier formation? The former I can see as more predictable, but the second gives me some nice assassination bonuses.

Suzuteo wrote:
Yeah, I've seen your army. Very impressive. It's really hard to get good information about how to field these guys in larger numbers because of how pricey they are. I plan on buying 8 kits and building either 8 or 6 Dragoons. Not only because there seems to be universal agreement that they are probably one of the most standout Skitarii units, but because they're really cool.

Would you say running them deployed in a Skitarii Maniple is superior to holding them in reserve in a Cavalier formation? The former I can see as more predictable, but the second gives me some nice assassination bonuses.

I only ever take them in the Skitarii Maniple mainly because I like having my forces on the table and there is always the chance you will not roll for the Formation to come in when you need it. Also goes a long way in dealing with armies like Space Wolves, Genestealer Cults and other forces that can get Turn 1 charges off, I have the speed to match them so they cannot just run blindly forward or appear right in front of me because I MSU them.

Out of curiosity where have you seen my army?

 gmaleron wrote:
I only ever take them in the Skitarii Maniple mainly because I like having my forces on the table and there is always the chance you will not roll for the Formation to come in when you need it. Also goes a long way in dealing with armies like Space Wolves, Genestealer Cults and other forces that can get Turn 1 charges off, I have the speed to match them so they cannot just run blindly forward or appear right in front of me because I MSU them.

Out of curiosity where have you seen my army?

Got it. That's what I was thinking too. My thinking has mostly been to use Dragoons in concert with Knight Errants, Vanguards, and Icarus Dunecrawlers.

I was looking up information about Dragoons, and your lists are practically the only ones with more than 3. (Not in person, if that's unclear. =P)

So anyone got some good Shadow Wars Kill Team ideas floating around? The Arqebus looks like its pretty good in that game

 WrentheFaceless wrote:
So anyone got some good Shadow Wars Kill Team ideas floating around? The Arqebus looks like its pretty good in that game

Nothing concrete yet. I am going to bring the book to work tonight and skim it over. Hopefully get some ideas. It seems like using Rad Carbines on Freshforged and Galvanic Rifles on regular Troopers is a common theme from batreps I have watched.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=iNzKRDvF7o0

This was a pretty good game.

I am going to run two Taser Lance and Phosphor Serpenta Dragoons in a squad. Or should they run separate?

Someone may have already mentioned this but I ain't reading through 70 pages.

Basically there's a way of running the Ironstrider Cavaliers formation that's hilarious. I face a lot of friends who run scary warlord units as their core (choaslord biker gang, Commander Dante and his Angels, a ork warboss mob, etc)

Doesn't always work, but I have 4 dragoons (2x2) and 1 obligatory Ballistarius. The Dragoons get equipped with the Radium jezzails, and ironstrider just keeps the autocannon to save points.

- Now with Imperatives they'll have great shooting the turn they come in and the turn after (hopefully turn 1 and 2) maybe BS 5 or 6. Obviously you designate the enemy warlord/deathstar are their target, and with that BS they will almost always hit.

-Acute sense from the formation means they'll most likely come in on the side you need them to with line of sight as well as good distance between them and the target. Somewhere they can shoot at them, but also stay semi-hidden themselves from other threats. 30" range, shouldn't be too hard.

-So they shoot with their sniper weapons, probably hitting, and any 6's are precision shots because Sniper (designate to warlord obvs).

-Now you roll to wound. Because of sniper, you wound on a +4 which is nice against the bigger bitches. You also wound at Ap2 on 6's because Sniper. You ALSO also count those Ap2's on 6's as TWO wounds each because of Radium ammunition. Oh, AAAANNND you get to re-roll any failed to-wound rolls against the target unit because of the formation, for a chance for more double Ap2's on 6's.

I deleted a fully-suped up chaos lord and his termie retinue. The warlord could likely die outright to the 4 Ap2 wounds designated to him and he lost 3 buddies for it in lookoutsirs. The rest of the wounds landed on him in the end anyways because a 5++ save will betray anybody. Out of him and 5 termies, only his survived the first salvo with 1 wound (the autocannon helped surprizingly). He footslogged for a turn and they shot him up again for Warlord Kill. Then the formation repeated this across the board for the rest of the game (without rerolls to wound of couse but wahtever).

Obviously there's tonnes of ways this can go wrong and it won't always work. But honestly, it hasn't failed me in particular yet, and my friends now deploy their warlord units over-cautiously in places where they're less useful out of fear of this formation, so it's a tactical victory for me regardless.

TimWhiskey wrote:
Someone may have already mentioned this but I ain't reading through 70 pages.

Basically there's a way of running the Ironstrider Cavaliers formation that's hilarious. I face a lot of friends who run scary warlord units as their core (choaslord biker gang, Commander Dante and his Angels, a ork warboss mob, etc)

Doesn't always work, but I have 4 dragoons (2x2) and 1 obligatory Ballistarius. The Dragoons get equipped with the Radium jezzails, and ironstrider just keeps the autocannon to save points.

- Now with Imperatives they'll have great shooting the turn they come in and the turn after (hopefully turn 1 and 2) maybe BS 5 or 6. Obviously you designate the enemy warlord/deathstar are their target, and with that BS they will almost always hit.

-Acute sense from the formation means they'll most likely come in on the side you need them to with line of sight as well as good distance between them and the target. Somewhere they can shoot at them, but also stay semi-hidden themselves from other threats. 30" range, shouldn't be too hard.

-So they shoot with their sniper weapons, probably hitting, and any 6's are precision shots because Sniper (designate to warlord obvs).

-Now you roll to wound. Because of sniper, you wound on a +4 which is nice against the bigger bitches. You also wound at Ap2 on 6's because Sniper. You ALSO also count those Ap2's on 6's as TWO wounds each because of Radium ammunition. Oh, AAAANNND you get to re-roll any failed to-wound rolls against the target unit because of the formation, for a chance for more double Ap2's on 6's.

I deleted a fully-suped up chaos lord and his termie retinue. The warlord could likely die outright to the 4 Ap2 wounds designated to him and he lost 3 buddies for it in lookoutsirs. The rest of the wounds landed on him in the end anyways because a 5++ save will betray anybody. Out of him and 5 termies, only his survived the first salvo with 1 wound (the autocannon helped surprizingly). He footslogged for a turn and they shot him up again for Warlord Kill. Then the formation repeated this across the board for the rest of the game (without rerolls to wound of couse but wahtever).

Obviously there's tonnes of ways this can go wrong and it won't always work. But honestly, it hasn't failed me in particular yet, and my friends now deploy their warlord units over-cautiously in places where they're less useful out of fear of this formation, so it's a tactical victory for me regardless.

Ha ! This is why I want Radium Dragoons, for this kind of stuff In numbers they could kill whatever they want. Problem is I mistrust reserve rolls. In my meta people almost always have flyers and I think it gives me a malus to my reserve rolls or something along these lines, and anyway if I fail the 1st turn roll their impact will be less deadly.

Also, that's 190€ for 235 points

Damnit, now Radium Jezzails are back on the table. What to do...what to do...

The fact I will be running them in a shooter heavy setup makes it that much harder to choose due to imperatives.

My group is largely ok with proxies, and since two of my dragoons are modeled with the lances, that's lucky for me. And yeah gotta watch out for your enemy having aerial superiority

I still think the Taser Lances are better.

They are flexible, working either in the Maniple or Cavalier formation; don't lose effectiveness once they no longer have the designated target rule; fulfill the crucial CC role very well; and synergize better with Serpenta.

Suzuteo wrote:
I still think the Taser Lances are better.

They are flexible, working either in the Maniple or Cavalier formation; don't lose effectiveness once they no longer have the designated target rule; fulfill the crucial CC role very well; and synergize better with Serpenta.

So help me GOD if that situation changes with 8th, I will be pissed if I give them lances. I might hold off assembling basically anything until 8th drops.

 casvalremdeikun wrote:
So help me GOD if that situation changes with 8th, I will be pissed if I give them lances. I might hold off assembling basically anything until 8th drops.

Given the current rumors, Dragoons will probably be more important than ever. Charging units will be attacking first, which means assault will become more common. Armor penetration is also going out the window, so everything with high strength but nor armor penetration just got an indirect buff. And if units are all getting their own move stats, do you think Dragoon movement is going to be on the higher or lower end of that spectrum?

But that's my take. Can anyone think of a reason why these changes would hurt melee Dragoons?

Dragoons attack first on the charge against 90% of enemies anyway. I would expect them to remain very mobile. But Radium Jezzails might get a significant boost somehow.

How so? I mean, bear in mind that even if they get buffed, we still haven't an established use for the Jezzail Dragoon in 7th, much less 8th edition. I suppose that's because all of the past competitive lists--Drop Pods, WarCon, Knights--all used the melee variant.

Speaking of which, what is the competitive Skitarii list outside of WarCon and Knights now? The GranCon and ConAcq formations seem rather weak.

Which reminds me: Does ConAcq grant Canticles to EVERYONE or just models with the Canticles rule? I know it grants Imperatives to everyone if you fill it out, but that's insanity.

How about magnetizing? I magnetized the weapon arms on my dragoons, it's not that hard.

trindaros wrote:
How about magnetizing? I magnetized the weapon arms on my dragoons, it's not that hard.

I don't magnetize infantry(only vehicles), and the Dragoon is an infantry model on top of a walker. I am going to give him the Lances.

Has anyone thought about combining Dragoons with Secutarii Peltasts? You can use Scout and Crusader to run some Dragoons up, then have the Peltasts give the Dragoons in front of them Shrouded for 3+++. The next turn, the Dragoons charge the target, followed by the Peltasts (who can be combined with Cawl for some 2++ rerollable shenanigans).

 casvalremdeikun wrote:
I might hold off assembling basically anything until 8th drops.

this is my position. i've got three rhinos to assemble, and terrain, but that's it.

 axisofentropy wrote:

 casvalremdeikun wrote:
I might hold off assembling basically anything until 8th drops.

this is my position. i've got three rhinos to assemble, and terrain, but that's it.

Pretty much the same here. I am going to assemble my tanks, drop pods, and scenery. Most infantry will have their bodies assembled, but no weapons unless they have one setup.

My Onager is going to be 90% assembled (no weapon options or accessory options). The Dragoons will have everything besides the lance or Jezzail. But, since ripping the arm off an infantry model is not all that hard, they will probably have lances.

My Sicarians are actually the thing I am worried about. If Twin Transonic Blades become viable or even preferred, they will be a pain to remodel.

My Sydonians arrived today. I really wish there was a holstered or slung Taser Lance bit so I could model each one differently. The fact you can model one with a slung Jezzail and Serpenta but not a lance limits the options for modeling. That almost makes the Jezzail worth it.

Anyway. I can't wait to put them together.

Has anyone seen any of those interesting Relic spam lists? I've seen them discussed in the European and Asian community while Googling for Skitarii lists.

They usually take a Grand Convocation and a Skitarii Maniple, sometimes with a Battle Congregation for the 8x Canticle bonus. The Grand Convocation has Cawl and 3 Domini. The Troops are silver bullets made up of Breachers, Grav Destroyers, Peltasts, and Vanguard. The idea is to pair a priest with a unit and to deploy these combined units where they are needed most. The rest of the points go into Dragoons in the Maniple (because of Scout) or a 3x Dunecrawler squadron in the GranCon (Icarus and 2x Neutron Laser; abuses IWND and PotMS).

EDIT: Bentagon's list here apparently won the Insipring Gaming Cup II in Hamburg

And here's something I cooked up after reading a Chinese thread:

Grand Convocation Detachment (1025)

HQ
Belisarius Cawl
Tech-Priest Dominus - Memento-Mortispex
Tech-Priest Dominus - Saint Curia's Autopurger
Tech-Priest Dominus - Conversion Field; Omnissiah's Grace

Troops
3x Kataphron Breachers - Heavy Arc Rifle, Arc Claw
3x Kataphron Destroyers - Heavy Grav-cannon, Cognis Flamer
5x Skitarii Vanguard
5x Skitarii Vanguard

Skitarii Maniple (825)

Troops
10x Skitarii Vanguard - 3x Arc Rifle
10x Skitarii Vanguard - Pater Radium

Elites
15 Secutarii Peltast - Omnispex

Fast Attack
4x Sydonian Dragoon - Taser Lance
4x Sydonian Dragoon - Taser Lance

. Cawl with the Peltasts, Morti-Priest with either of the Destroyers, Curia-Priest with the Pater-Vanguard, the Grace-Priest with any other unit as a tank.

Suzuteo wrote:
Has anyone seen any of those interesting Relic spam lists? I've seen them discussed in the European and Asian community while Googling for Skitarii lists.

They usually take a Grand Convocation and a Skitarii Maniple, sometimes with a Battle Congregation for the 8x Canticle bonus. The Grand Convocation has Cawl and 3 Domini. The Troops are silver bullets made up of Breachers, Grav Destroyers, Peltasts, and Vanguard. The idea is to pair a priest with a unit and to deploy these combined units where they are needed most. The rest of the points go into Dragoons in the Maniple (because of Scout) or a 3x Dunecrawler squadron in the GranCon (Icarus and 2x Neutron Laser; abuses IWND and PotMS).

EDIT: Bentagon's list here apparently won the Insipring Gaming Cup II in Hamburg

That is definetly a very interesting idea to experiment. I like using all the new relics that we get so I will definitely give this a shot.

I think I would rather run the vanguard in Grand convocation and Ran battle congregation with Destroyers for double Canticle goodness with Cawl. Also with that many cult units adding a Crusader Knight and keep him close proximity to Cawl sounds very tempting