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Every aggressor kills 5,3 boyz without cover. This drops to 4,3 with a painboy present. How many points does an agressor with bolter mantlet and grenade launcher cost?

 koooaei wrote:

Breng77 wrote:

As for aggressors they really should not be wiping full mobs especially if you set up planning to go second. Using a KFF and or Painboy. Even without those though 3 Agressors should kill about 8 boyz, drops to about 6 with KFF/Cover/Painboy, 5 with Painboy and other improved save.

How did you get this numbers? If i get it right, every aggressor kills 5-6 orks. 6-7 if he gets re-rolls of 1-s to hit from a captain. So, a squad of 3 kills ~20 boyz. If there's no boss nearby, the rest will run away. But you should really have a boss near a blob.

How do you get that they have 6 + D6 shots each, so that is an average of 9.5 shots. Hitting on 3s gets ~6.33 hits, or 2.64 unsaved wounds. So a squad of 3 does 7.9 wounds on average for the squad. If they shoot twice that is 15.8 wounds. Unless they are your only squad of boyz they are still LD 30 and won't care about morale at all. If they also have a captain infiltrating or deepstriking that improves them a bit more, but morale still isn't an issue unless they cripple all your boyz mobs and you don't have a boss near by. So it would take them firing 4 times to wipe a single squad in all likelihood. Assuming they have range to do so for all the shooting rounds. lets put it this way, if you deploy intelligently the best any number of Aggressors will do is wipe a single Mob regardless of any support , and then all of them will get assaulted turn 1 by your Boyz. If you have multiple mobs you should be able to easily wipe out the character and 2-3 Agressor squads so it seems like a good trade to me as each aggressor squad is about the cost of a single mob of boyz.

pismakron wrote:
Every aggressor kills 5,3 boyz without cover. This drops to 4,3 with a painboy present. How many points does an agressor with bolter mantlet and grenade launcher cost?

43ppm

5) Always remember to drop a comment about the primaris agressors being butt-ugly.

I think this is the most viable tactic. They so ugly they make onions cry.


Do they have some sort of deployment rule? like are they infiltrating or something?

It's a Ravenguard specific strategem. It's not quite infilitrating since it happens before the first round starts.

Breng77 wrote:

ajax_xaja wrote:

 Weazel wrote:

ajax_xaja wrote:
How do you even play around something like that?

By getting 1st turn and clobbering them up with da boyz. But if you're going second you are done for.

I suppose auxpex scan works. Da Jump is worded similarly to any other deep strike rule...

Gah, was hoping that this wasn't the only answer.

A squad of aggressors only costs 129 points, and they're removing a full 30 man blob of boyz easily if going first.

Could be a real problem for orks.

Auspex scan would not work against Da Jump
The rules says "Use this stratagem immediately after your opponent sets up a unit that is arriving on the battle field as reinforcements..." Reinforcements in the rules refers specifically to units coming in from reserve, the boyz (or any other unit) being Da Jumped are not in reserve, just removed from the table, and set up within 9" of the enemy.

As for aggressors they really should not be wiping full mobs especially if you set up planning to go second. Using a KFF and or Painboy. Even without those though 3 Agressors should kill about 8 boyz, drops to about 6 with KFF/Cover/Painboy, 5 with Painboy and other improved save. So to wipe a mob you are looking at 4 squads of aggressors on average. Or 2 if they did not move. So 260 points assuming no KFF or Painboy. Depending on your army you can make it so that all such units can only ever target 1 squad and will then die to counter assault, or can only target vehicles if you have them, or gretchin. It will really back you up in your deployment but with move + adavnce and charge against the agressors and da jump that doesn't matter a whole lot.

Reinforcements reads "units set up mid-turn", wiith no specification of units coming in from reserve. FWIW, the way you're reading it is exactly how I interpreted it, but RAW seem to indicate otherwise. Would love to hear more feedback on this as well.

Aggressors get 2x (6 + D6) shots when they're remaining stationary. Because of the RG Chapter Tactic, they're deploying, not deep striking or moving. That's a guaranteed stationary salvo of shots.

I think your math's a little off, a unit of 3 aggressors under the RG chapter tactic will always be deploying (not deepstriking, so no movement) in the optimal position, so getting their 2x shots. My math also indicates around 5-6 orks dying on average per aggressor, meaning you're losing 15-18 orks out of your unit. The rest are going down to morale.

ajax_xaja wrote:
The rest are going down to morale.

I don't understand how you could lose guys to morale with Ld30 ? Also there's a stratagem that lets you pass a morale check.

ajax_xaja wrote:

Breng77 wrote:

ajax_xaja wrote:

 Weazel wrote:

ajax_xaja wrote:
How do you even play around something like that?

By getting 1st turn and clobbering them up with da boyz. But if you're going second you are done for.

I suppose auxpex scan works. Da Jump is worded similarly to any other deep strike rule...

Gah, was hoping that this wasn't the only answer.

A squad of aggressors only costs 129 points, and they're removing a full 30 man blob of boyz easily if going first.

Could be a real problem for orks.

Auspex scan would not work against Da Jump
The rules says "Use this stratagem immediately after your opponent sets up a unit that is arriving on the battle field as reinforcements..." Reinforcements in the rules refers specifically to units coming in from reserve, the boyz (or any other unit) being Da Jumped are not in reserve, just removed from the table, and set up within 9" of the enemy.

As for aggressors they really should not be wiping full mobs especially if you set up planning to go second. Using a KFF and or Painboy. Even without those though 3 Agressors should kill about 8 boyz, drops to about 6 with KFF/Cover/Painboy, 5 with Painboy and other improved save. So to wipe a mob you are looking at 4 squads of aggressors on average. Or 2 if they did not move. So 260 points assuming no KFF or Painboy. Depending on your army you can make it so that all such units can only ever target 1 squad and will then die to counter assault, or can only target vehicles if you have them, or gretchin. It will really back you up in your deployment but with move + adavnce and charge against the agressors and da jump that doesn't matter a whole lot.

Reinforcements reads "units set up mid-turn", wiith no specification of units coming in from reserve. FWIW, the way you're reading it is exactly how I interpreted it, but RAW seem to indicate otherwise. Would love to hear more feedback on this as well.

Aggressors get 2x (6 + D6) shots when they're remaining stationary. Because of the RG Chapter Tactic, they're deploying, not deep striking or moving. That's a guaranteed stationary salvo of shots.

I think your math's a little off, a unit of 3 aggressors under the RG chapter tactic will always be deploying (not deepstriking, so no movement) in the optimal position, so getting their 2x shots. My math also indicates around 5-6 orks dying on average per aggressor, meaning you're losing 15-18 orks out of your unit. The rest are going down to morale.

It states that units have the ability to be set up mid turn. Da Jump isn't a unit ability to be set up mid turn. Both also say arrive on the battlefield. Units using Da Jump don't arrive, they were already on the battlefield. Da Jump does not say that the target unit counts as being reinforcements. Assuming they do is implying that any unit moving by "deepstrike" is arriving by reinforcements. reinforcements is also refered to on p.215 in the tactical reserves section (which amends the general reinforcement rules) still says arrives mid game or mid turn.

As for Aggressors, you should never lose a boyz mob to morale unless it is your only one and unsupported by a boss. Even if they kill 18 orks, 18+D6 - 12 means you are only losing the rest of the squad on a 6. But if there is another boyz mob within 6", you are LD 30 and don't care about 18 losses, if you have a warboss you just lose D3 orks. Or failing both, you pay CP to pass morale and save the unit.

There is absolutely no guarantee of a second salvo of shots unless they are within 18" of at least 10 orks. Otherwise you could remove those in range before the second salvo. You can also deploy smaller units to push the aggressors back so they don't have range except to a small unit or say a battlewagon.

it is a strong tactic, but it is just as easy to defend against as any other deepstriking unit.

I certainly agree with you on the Auspex issue, but I think it's something that needs to be FAQ'ed, as it's a little ambiguous.

For the record, recent FAQ regarding the Tau Early Warning System:

Q: Can models with an early warning override Support System
use it to shoot at units that use psychic powers such as Gate of
Infinity or Da Jump to set up within 12"?
A: Yes.


Early Warning Override and Auspex Scanner are worded very similarly. The deciding factor here is going to be whether or not Da Jump counts as reinforcements.

Anybody had any luck with dakkajets? im kinda afraid to even bother since theyre kinda squishy and -1 to hit is nothing for a shooty army. Kinda expect them to just go poof

Dakkajets are the best jets - hitting on 4+ with up to 18 shots (you will take the extra 2 Supa-Shootas), S6, SV-1; all this for 148 points.

They murder marines in cover, and are incredibly mobile to boot.

I always took one in my list, but their performance has convinced me to take two+. They hunt down other jets pretty well too. Plus, ever shot going towards them is a shot not going towards your other units. - Deploy them in your table edge's corners, and they'll still be able to zoom 60"+ to reach whatever target you want; add in the range of the gun and

Every other jet just doesn't compare in my opinion; that said, I've only tried the Wazbomm Blasta-jet... used it as a mobile KFF (only) for my flyer squadron and it was pretty nice - that said, don't count on it to do any damage at all however. I don't like the rest of our jets; between one use weapons that hit on a 5+, and lacking extra weaponry in general, I'm just not sold on them.

But, Dakkajet is the beast. It'll get exactly where it needs to be, between it's natural speed and the long range of it's weapons. And then; it'll tear up whatever important squad or target you need shot down, even if they're in cover.

fe40k wrote:
Dakkajets are the best jets - hitting on 4+ with up to 18 shots (you will take the extra 2 Supa-Shootas), S6, SV-1; all this for 148 points.

They murder marines in cover, and are incredibly mobile to boot.

I always took one in my list, but their performance has convinced me to take two+. They hunt down other jets pretty well too. Plus, ever shot going towards them is a shot not going towards your other units. - Deploy them in your table edge's corners, and they'll still be able to zoom 60"+ to reach whatever target you want; add in the range of the gun and

Every other jet just doesn't compare in my opinion; that said, I've only tried the Wazbomm Blasta-jet... used it as a mobile KFF (only) for my flyer squadron and it was pretty nice - that said, don't count on it to do any damage at all however. I don't like the rest of our jets; between one use weapons that hit on a 5+, and lacking extra weaponry in general, I'm just not sold on them.

But, Dakkajet is the beast. It'll get exactly where it needs to be, between it's natural speed and the long range of it's weapons. And then; it'll tear up whatever important squad or target you need shot down, even if they're in cover.

Seconded

Breng77 wrote:

Breng77 wrote:

3 Agressors should kill about 8 boyz

So a squad of 3 does 7.9 wounds on average for the squad. If they shoot twice that is 15.8 wounds.

But they always shoot twice, so 16 is the number we should operate with - not 8. Also, count in overwatch. If an agressor that costs 43 pts kills ~6-7 boyz (5-6 in shooting + 1 on overwatch) than he kinda pays off in the 1-st turn. And it's not a guarantee you're gona kill them in mellee also. So, it's really a problem for ork hordes. And it can't just be ignored like lazcannons. Luckilly, i'm sure we won't see an army of infiltrating aggressors. But if we do face 3+ squads that get 1-st turn, it's a major problem cause they can wittle us down from one flank like no big deal and the other won't even be able to react in time.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

fe40k wrote:
Dakkajets
...murder marines in cover.

A dakkajet kills 2 marines in cover. I'd not call it MURDER. It's still handy and can be used to either start putting damage on more expensive stuff orks can't generally reach - like devastators - or kill this couple bauble wrap models that prevent your boyz from getting to the enemy. Dakkajet will likely not pay off in a way of how much pts it can kill but it's more of an almost guaranteed way of putting a couple wounds wherever you need them.

A dakkajet kills 2 marines in cover. I'd not call it MURDER. It's still handy and can be used to either start putting damage on more expensive stuff orks can't generally reach - like devastators - or kill this couple bauble wrap models that prevent your boyz from getting to the enemy. Dakkajet will likely not pay off in a way of how much pts it can kill but it's more of an almost guaranteed way of putting a couple wounds wherever you need them.

You're right - the math doesn't look too amazing on marines in cover.

But that's 2 Devastators (captain+weapon) minimum (on average, PLUS in cover), before you factor in the power of variance. Ork shooting, particularly dakkajets, have the ability to spike really high due to the amount of dice they roll. They also can whiff - but any shooting can do that, and dakkajets have the power of averages on their side due to the number of dice they use.

It's easy for a dakkajet to take down its weight in devastators in a single turn, and survive pretty decently thanks to the -1 to hit. Throw in another juicy target (Gorkanaut/Battlewagon), and they'll be hard pressed to deliver enough firepower onto both targets to kill them together in the same turn.

I'm not saying they're the bestest most powerful unit in the world, but they're very solid.

And this is on marines - on Eldar/Guardsman, the numbers go up significantly thanks to S6 vs S3 and -1Sv on a 4+/5+ armor save; Eldar units aren't cheap, but our dakka jets are.

But if there is another boyz mob within 6", you are LD 30

Is this how it works? I've been playing that you can use the leadership of nearby units but not their model counts.

Does anybody have any advice out buggy weapon choices, is it still all Rokkits all the time? Does the same hold true for Killa Kans?

 Kroem wrote:

But if there is another boyz mob within 6", you are LD 30

Is this how it works? I've been playing that you can use the leadership of nearby units but not their model counts.

Well you do, but at the same time the nearby unit's leadership is its model count, making the nearby unit Ld30 (or whatever their model count is).

Furthermore if you have a Warboss nearby you'll never lose a more than D3 models to morale.

 koooaei wrote:

But they always shoot twice, so 16 is the number we should operate with - not 8. Also, count in overwatch. If an agressor that costs 43 pts kills ~6-7 boyz (5-6 in shooting + 1 on overwatch) than he kinda pays off in the 1-st turn. And it's not a guarantee you're gona kill them in mellee also. So, it's really a problem for ork hordes. And it can't just be ignored like lazcannons. Luckilly, i'm sure we won't see an army of infiltrating aggressors. But if we do face 3+ squads that get 1-st turn, it's a major problem cause they can wittle us down from one flank like no big deal and the other won't even be able to react in time.

They can only use the stratagem, once, no?

As for overwatch, you would probably want to eat it with a character on a bike.

 Kroem wrote:

But if there is another boyz mob within 6", you are LD 30

Is this how it works? I've been playing that you can use the leadership of nearby units but not their model counts.

Does anybody have any advice out buggy weapon choices, is it still all Rokkits all the time? Does the same hold true for Killa Kans?

I've played KMB on kanz once so far, it's cheaper than rokkits and somewhat sttronger. Rolling 1's is not as much an issue as you would think, and you can even stat wound allocation shenanigans if you mange to get two kanz wounded.
Might be an option, I wouldn't start tearing models apart before the codex hits though. Luckily all my kanz are magnetized.

Well you do, but at the same time the nearby unit's leadership is its model count, making the nearby unit Ld30 (or whatever their model count is).

I see where you are coming from, I thought it said you could replace your leadership stat with model count when taking morale tests but it would appear it is across the board.

Weird as this makes any Psychic power that requires a leadership clash very poor against big boyz mobs haha! (Or even those standing next to them)




Automatically Appended Next Post:

I've played KMB on kanz once so far, it's cheaper than rokkits and somewhat sttronger. Rolling 1's is not as much an issue as you would think, and you can even stat wound allocation shenanigans if you mange to get two kanz wounded.
Might be an option, I wouldn't start tearing models apart before the codex hits though. Luckily all my kanz are magnetized.

Thanks for the advice, all my kanz are the old metal ones and they didn't come with an option for the KMB so I'll stick with the Rokkits over Big Shootas as long as they aren't too rubbish!
Like you say, no one enjoys tearing apart models and I don't like magnetising weapon options.

 koooaei wrote:

Breng77 wrote:

Breng77 wrote:

3 Agressors should kill about 8 boyz

So a squad of 3 does 7.9 wounds on average for the squad. If they shoot twice that is 15.8 wounds.

But they always shoot twice, so 16 is the number we should operate with - not 8. Also, count in overwatch. If an agressor that costs 43 pts kills ~6-7 boyz (5-6 in shooting + 1 on overwatch) than he kinda pays off in the 1-st turn. And it's not a guarantee you're gona kill them in mellee also. So, it's really a problem for ork hordes. And it can't just be ignored like lazcannons. Luckilly, i'm sure we won't see an army of infiltrating aggressors. But if we do face 3+ squads that get 1-st turn, it's a major problem cause they can wittle us down from one flank like no big deal and the other won't even be able to react in time.

They don't always shoot twice, that assumes that their first round of shooting doesn't take them out of range or LOS for the second round. But yes it is likely they will shoot twice. There is a pretty strong guarantee that if they are in range for shooting twice that they will die in the assault first turn. Doing 6 wounds to a T5 3+ save unit is pretty trivial. As for multiple such squads they really have diminishing returns beyond pushing your orks back in deployment. If you are smart all the squads will only have range to a single unit of boyz, at most barely 2. So it would be overkill. I don't see how they will whittle down a flank when it is easy to dictate exactly where they can go if they want to be effective, and that will be in charge range of the rest of the army. They are annoying but not a huge deal. at least not any more than plenty of other units.

pismakron wrote:

 koooaei wrote:

But they always shoot twice, so 16 is the number we should operate with - not 8. Also, count in overwatch. If an agressor that costs 43 pts kills ~6-7 boyz (5-6 in shooting + 1 on overwatch) than he kinda pays off in the 1-st turn. And it's not a guarantee you're gona kill them in mellee also. So, it's really a problem for ork hordes. And it can't just be ignored like lazcannons. Luckilly, i'm sure we won't see an army of infiltrating aggressors. But if we do face 3+ squads that get 1-st turn, it's a major problem cause they can wittle us down from one flank like no big deal and the other won't even be able to react in time.

They can only use the stratagem, once, no?

As for overwatch, you would probably want to eat it with a character on a bike.

If i get it right, their deployment happens before the phases, so you just spend cp with no other restrictions.

 koooaei wrote:

pismakron wrote:

 koooaei wrote:

But they always shoot twice, so 16 is the number we should operate with - not 8. Also, count in overwatch. If an agressor that costs 43 pts kills ~6-7 boyz (5-6 in shooting + 1 on overwatch) than he kinda pays off in the 1-st turn. And it's not a guarantee you're gona kill them in mellee also. So, it's really a problem for ork hordes. And it can't just be ignored like lazcannons. Luckilly, i'm sure we won't see an army of infiltrating aggressors. But if we do face 3+ squads that get 1-st turn, it's a major problem cause they can wittle us down from one flank like no big deal and the other won't even be able to react in time.

They can only use the stratagem, once, no?

As for overwatch, you would probably want to eat it with a character on a bike.

If i get it right, their deployment happens before the phases, so you just spend cp with no other restrictions.

Hm, yeah, I can see that. So in essence, Raven Guard, can deepstrike a large number of units. These units will be setup before the seize roll, The units arrive nine inch away from enemy troops, and can then move and shoot and charge as normal. This seems just a little broken. I mean, you could kit out a ton of flamers, move into couple of inches away and then shoot and charge. Or you could take powerfists on a risk free charge against his vehicles.

Imagine how good da jump would be, if you could move the jumped unit after it was set up.

pismakron wrote:

 koooaei wrote:

pismakron wrote:

 koooaei wrote:

But they always shoot twice, so 16 is the number we should operate with - not 8. Also, count in overwatch. If an agressor that costs 43 pts kills ~6-7 boyz (5-6 in shooting + 1 on overwatch) than he kinda pays off in the 1-st turn. And it's not a guarantee you're gona kill them in mellee also. So, it's really a problem for ork hordes. And it can't just be ignored like lazcannons. Luckilly, i'm sure we won't see an army of infiltrating aggressors. But if we do face 3+ squads that get 1-st turn, it's a major problem cause they can wittle us down from one flank like no big deal and the other won't even be able to react in time.

They can only use the stratagem, once, no?

As for overwatch, you would probably want to eat it with a character on a bike.

If i get it right, their deployment happens before the phases, so you just spend cp with no other restrictions.

Hm, yeah, I can see that. So in essence, Raven Guard, can deepstrike a large number of units. These units will be setup before the seize roll, The units arrive nine inch away from enemy troops, and can then move and shoot and charge as normal. This seems just a little broken. I mean, you could kit out a ton of flamers, move into couple of inches away and then shoot and charge. Or you could take powerfists on a risk free charge against his vehicles.

Imagine how good da jump would be, if you could move the jumped unit after it was set up.

I mean you need to commit to doing so during deployment, and your opponent can deploy to counter it. You also need to do so without knowing you have first turn, so if you don't get first turn you end up setting them up somewhere further away. It is definitely powerful and probably should cost 2 CP to use.

fe40k wrote:
Dakkajets are the best jets - hitting on 4+ with up to 18 shots (you will take the extra 2 Supa-Shootas), S6, SV-1; all this for 148 points.

They murder marines in cover, and are incredibly mobile to boot.

I always took one in my list, but their performance has convinced me to take two+. They hunt down other jets pretty well too. Plus, ever shot going towards them is a shot not going towards your other units. - Deploy them in your table edge's corners, and they'll still be able to zoom 60"+ to reach whatever target you want; add in the range of the gun and

Every other jet just doesn't compare in my opinion; that said, I've only tried the Wazbomm Blasta-jet... used it as a mobile KFF (only) for my flyer squadron and it was pretty nice - that said, don't count on it to do any damage at all however. I don't like the rest of our jets; between one use weapons that hit on a 5+, and lacking extra weaponry in general, I'm just not sold on them.

But, Dakkajet is the beast. It'll get exactly where it needs to be, between it's natural speed and the long range of it's weapons. And then; it'll tear up whatever important squad or target you need shot down, even if they're in cover.

i'll have to try it out then.
Currently i have just shy of 450pts dedicated to a wagon of tankbustas. Its just too easy to pop for how much damage they do.....if i shed them for 1-2 dakkajets i can also bring a third deffdread more than likely (might have to shed something else but 2painboyz definitely not a good idea) (already got a KFF mek anyway)

Personally, I think Orks need Gun Trukks.

Add your favourite Big Gun/Mek Gun to a trukk, and you're good to go.

Tell me I'm wrong?

My 4th edition Zapp guntrukks say you're right... if just so I can use them again.

Soo....wtf are dakkajets suppose to aim at?

I ran 2 of them today against some chaos marines. They either didnt have the rate of fire/ap to eat through high armor saves, the strength to take out vehicles, or the hitrate to take out numbers.

Theyre stupid cheap, but this is the first time i legitimately have no idea what it should be going after

Im already running 3 dreads and 6 kanz lol. I need to find a dang gorkanaut though...so hard to find

i'd not call 150 pts stupid cheap for what damage output you get. In fact, any sm, ig, sob, eldar would call it stupid expensive.

 Vineheart01 wrote:
Soo....wtf are dakkajets suppose to aim at?

I ran 2 of them today against some chaos marines. They either didnt have the rate of fire/ap to eat through high armor saves, the strength to take out vehicles, or the hitrate to take out numbers.

Theyre stupid cheap, but this is the first time i legitimately have no idea what it should be going after

Im already running 3 dreads and 6 kanz lol. I need to find a dang gorkanaut though...so hard to find

I usually shoot them at anything that has 1 wound or that has a save of 3+ or worse (including cover) and T6 or less. Marines in cover still get their 3+ save against them, but their are your best shot to removing them before combat.

Against most non-MEQ armies you tend to have more obvious targets, as the are pretty good at grinding down horde units (boyz, gaunts, conscripts) and bubble wraps(kroot, horrors) or weakening combat experts that rely on high damage instead of good defense gene stealers or daemonettes.

Anyone got some handy hints for speeding up dice rolling in combat?

Bring a calculator and notepad? Abacus?
It's difficult for an Ork to count, and last night I was rolling 115 attacks against a single mauler fiend (3 wounds, whoop whoop )