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What kind of IG Platoon would I like to see?

Platoon
the fundamental (but non-mandatory) building block

Platoon Special Rules
- FOC slots: each Platoon takes up 2 Troops slots, regardless of the number of Squads it is composed of
- Coherency: all Squads must maintain 6" coherency if possible
- Reserves: roll for the entire Platoon at once
- Kill Points: score 1 Kill Point for every 2 full Squads

An Imperial Guard Platoon consists of:
- 1 Platoon Command Squad, and
- 2 to 4 Platoon Squads.
- up to 1 Special Weapons Squad.
- If the Platoon numbers at least 3 Platoon Squads, then the Platoon may attach up to one Heavy Weapons Squad.
- If the Platoon numbers 4 Platoon Squads, then one Platoon Squad may be upgraded to a Hardened Veterans Squad.

Special Equipment: Platoon squads may take one of the following:
- Cameoline Cloaks (6+ Cover Save / +1 to Cover Saves) = +10 pts/squad
- Carapace Armour (4+ Armour Save) = +10 pts/squad
- Chem Inhalers (Fearless) = +15 pts/squad
- Close Combat Weapons (LP&CCW) = +5 pts/squad
- Cranial Block (Feel No Pain) = +15 pts/squad
- Cyber Enhancements (6+ Invulnerable Save) = +10 pts/squad
If any squads take special equipment, all squads in the Platoon must purchase the same equipment

Mobility: Platoon squads may take one of the following
- Light Infantry (Infiltrate, Move Through Cover) = +15 pts/squad, but Sv6+, and may not take Carapace!
- Grav Chutes (Deep Strike) = +20 pts/squad
- Mechanized (Transport) = +Chimera/squad
If any squads take a mobilty doctrine, all squads in the Platoon must purchase same doctrine


Platoon Command Squad = 40 pts
Junior Officer - WS4 BS4 S3 T3 W1 I3 A2 Ld8 Sv5+
5 Veterans - WS3 BS4 S3 T3 W1 I3 A1 Ld8 Sv5+
- Up to 4 Special Weapons (sniper, flamer, GL, melta, plasma, or heavy stubber)
- Officer is NOT IC, but may take Power Weapon

Platoon Squad = 50 pts
10 Guardsmen - WS3 BS3 S3 T3 W1 I3 A1 Ld7 Sv5+
- Up to 1 Heavy Weapon (HB, HF, AC, ML, LC, mortar)
- Up to 1 Special Weapon (sniper, flamer, GL, melta, plasma, or heavy stubber)

Special Weapons Squad = 35 pts
6 Guardsmen - WS3 BS3 S3 T3 W1 I3 A1 Ld7 Sv5+
- 3 Special Weapons (sniper, flamer, GL, melta, plasma, or heavy stubber)

Heavy Weapons Squad = 35 pts
6 Guardsmen - WS3 BS3 S3 T3 W1 I3 A1 Ld7 Sv5+
- 3 Heavy Weapons (HB, HF, AC, ML, LC, mortar)

Hardened Veteran Squad = 45 pts
6 Veterans - WS3 BS4 S3 T3 W1 I3 A1 Ld8 Sv5+
- Up to 2 Special Weapons
May add 4 Veterans for 30 pts
- If 10 Veterans, up to 1 Heavy Weapon / 3rd Special Weapon


Chimera = 40 pts
BS3 AV12/12/10 Tank
- 1 Hull Weapon (HB, HF, HS)
- Turret weapon (HB, HF, HS, Multi-Laser)
- Transport 12


Conscripts = 4 pts each
e.g. Penal Legions, Beastmen for horde assault
10-20 Conscripts - WS3 BS2 S3 T3 W1 I3 A1 Ld6 Sv-
- Stub Pistol & CCW
- any models may exchange LP for Shotgun or Stubber
- up to 1 Taskmaster (BS3 I4 Ld7)
- up to 1 Specialist per 5 models: (demo, flamethrower)


Grenadiers = 10 pts each
e.g. Stormtroopers, following the Inquistion model, but as range-toppers; Troops as they're expensive
5-10 Grenadiers - WS3 BS4 S3 T3 W1 I3 A1 Ld8 Sv4+
- Hellgun (same as Bolter)
- up to 1 Veteran (A2)
- up to 2 Special Weapons
- may take Chimera or Valkyrie


Armoury
Flamethrower (Template S3 AP6 Assault 1 Gets Hot!)
Shotgun (R12" S4 AP6 Assault 2)
Stubber (R24" S3 AP- Rapid Fire)
Stub Pistol (R12" S3 AP- Pistol)

Notes
I advocate for a Platoon-centric approach, with the standard Platoon as the primary building block of the Imperial Guard army. Heavy and Special Weapons move from HQ to Troops. Platoon sizes retain minimum 2 line squads. Larger Platoons unlock the Heavies and Veterans. All squads number 6 or 10 men. Heavy Stubbers become commonplace line weapons. Invisible Doctrines disappear.

Chimeras become much cheaper, and Drop Troops price closer to the actual value.

Conscripts & Grenadiers are adjuncts, flexible in size and role.

Elites thinned out quite a bit by moving Veterans and Storms down to Troops. This leaves just Ratlings and Ogryns, meaning that Elites can add a Tank Ace (any tank = BS4 for +40 pts).

2008.10.13 - JH

I could live with that. I'd miss light infantry, but I could deal with it. Some of the points costs are probably a bit off, but that always happens.

i like what you've done but unfortunately this doesnt address the primary problem with IG platoons, which is that they cost so many KP. at minimun one troops choice will cost 3 KP for 25 guys that are easy to deal with. until that gets fixed *(through whatever means) then infantry platoons will be sub-par

I like only 2 specials in veteran squads, but lament the lack of demo charges.

I'm not following your line of thought with this. Wouldn't you have more veterans with fewer squads? Considering that veterans come from battle, where there are lots of dangerous and killy things, which would whittle down a unit. Also, why were Special Weapons and Heavy Weapons moved from the HQ and into Platoons? I also agree that some of the points are off. 10pts seems too few for Carapace, same thing with the cyber enhancements. I could go on about that though... Lastly, why are there no more "Invisible Doctrines." Not all additional traits come from visible items. And if there is a problem with "not on the model," well, tough, the player should know, and it should not be a big deal for a store SOP to be to require datasheets on played army lists. I made one list with how I would play any item I have, then I just copy out the title onto an extra sheet, add any comments about about something I may have removed or added. It sounds complicated, but it really isn't. Plus, don't other armies have such things? How is "True Grit" modeled?

It strikes me as odd that you exclude light infantry either as scouts or infiltrators.

Raxmei wrote:I could live with that. I'd miss light infantry, but I could deal with it.

Some of the points costs are probably a bit off, but that always happens.

I don't really like Light Infantry, as it's "invisible" and it's grossly underpriced, gaining 2 USRs for 10 pts. A USR is worth at least 15 pts, 20 pts if it's a good one like Deep Strike.

The points costs start at 5 pts, +1 pt for a point of save, USRs as above.

Regwon wrote:i like what you've done but unfortunately this doesnt address the primary problem with IG platoons, which is that they cost so many KP.

The more I think about it, the less I worry about KPs. KPs are unbalaned, but they're only 1/3 of the random missions, and they don't matter at all in Apocalypse.

Agamemnon2 wrote:I like only 2 specials in veteran squads, but lament the lack of demo charges.

Veterans are way too good as it is, and moving them to Troops as-is would be insane, especially when you look at Storms. So I fix the size at 6 or 10 models consistent with the rest of the Platoon, and then block the Heavy for the small unit.

Demo Charges are a problem option among regular Platoons. They're great for Conscripts, tho.

Skinnattittar wrote:Wouldn't you have more veterans with fewer squads?

why were Special Weapons and Heavy Weapons moved from the HQ and into Platoons?

I also agree that some of the points are off. 10pts seems too few for Carapace, same thing with the cyber enhancements.

Lastly, why are there no more "Invisible Doctrines."

Veterans are clearly better in stats and options, so they need some kind of balancing cost, and that's best done as the mass of ordinary guys by comparision.

Weapons Squads are ordinary Guardsmen, so they fit better under an ordinary Platoon structure, rather Command.

The Sv4+ is only worth a point, same with the 6+ invulnerable. The net effect of any of them is that you're saving a 6-pt model from death 1/6 of the time. So it's 1 pt per model.

First, the overwhelming majority of the invisible doctrines were unbalanced and wordy. And they overlapped each other. Second, they are easily cheaty, if it's platoon-by-platoon. WYSIWYG is for the opponent's benefit, not the players. And it's not fair to place the burden of remembering on the opponent, so no invisible doctrines.

aka_mythos wrote:It strikes me as odd that you exclude light infantry either as scouts or infiltrators.

See above. Deep Strike covers this capability for the most part. Also, thematically, I don't really see Guard as a particularly subtle force...

I disagree about infiltrate. Some guard units aren't stealthy, but one of the most famous ones is. Deep Strike is not a substitute for Infiltrate, as the two do completely different things. Remove the Move Through Cover aspect of Light Infantry and the doctrine becomes no more invisible than Drop Troops - it only comes up during deployment, at which point it is pretty obvious what the unit is doing.

Good ideas, i have a few comments though!

JohnHwangDD wrote:
- If the Platoon numbers at least 3 Platoon Squads, then the Platoon may attach one Heavy Weapons Squad.
- If the Platoon numbers 4 Platoon Squads, then one Platoon Squad may be upgraded to a Hardened Veterans Squad.

I like the idea of including the hardened veterans in with the platoon. I think there's a wording problem, though. If you UPGRADE the fourth squad to a hardened veteran squad, then this is the same as saying "If the Platoon numbers at least 3 Platoon Squads, then the Platoon may ATTACH one Hardened Veteran Squad", since the fourth squad you add automatically would become the Hardened Vets (if you wanted). From the way you've written the Veterans' entry, it looks like they're not an upgrade at all, but an entirely separate unit...

JohnHwangDD wrote:
Special Equipment: Platoon squads may take one of the following:
- Cameoline Cloaks (6+ Cover Save / +1 to Cover Saves) = +10 pts/squad
- Carapace Armour (4+ Armour Save) = +10 pts/squad
- Chem Inhalers (Fearless) = +15 pts/squad
- Close Combat Weapons (LP&CCW) = +5 pts/squad
- Cranial Block (Feel No Pain) = +15 pts/squad
- Cyber Enhancements (6+ Invulnerable Save) = +10 pts/squad
If any squads take special equipment, all squads in the Platoon must purchase the same equipment

I still generally disagree with using doctrines as a per-platoon approach. An IG army would come from a single regiment, and regiments in 40k fluff all tend to have the same training (all infiltrators or all heavy infantry etc). ANYWAY, your system would include much more of the army in a single platoon structure, which I guess goes to balance this a bit. Your 'main' troops choice under this system is likely to be a monstrous 7-squad platoon, all with the same doctrines, which I agree with...

However, I think the points should be higher for a lot of these 'doctrine' upgrades. We want to force a situation where the default, flexible IG build, the one that people tend to take to tournaments, is made up of standard IG, not specialists. The 'special' IG armies, such as Drop Troops or Grenadiers should be slightly more challenging to play, and for experienced players. What we don't want is a situation where a particular upgrade is such good value it becomes the 'default' competitive IG build...

And i also think light infantry should be included. It's a big part of established IG fluff to have SOME unit of skilled infiltrators. Maybe there could be a modelling requirement...

JohnHwangDD wrote:
Chimera = 40 pts
BS3 AV12/12/10 Tank
- 1 Hull Weapon (HB, HF, HS)
- Turret weapon (HB, HF, HS, Multi-Laser)
- Transport 12

Chimeras need to be cheaper, but i think a 12/12/10 vehicle (with two heavy weapons) for 40 points is overdoing it a bit...! It's better armoured than a Rhino, has loads more firepower and weapon options, and can carry more models, and only costs 5 more points?

Another nice thing about including Vets, Heavies and Specials in with the standard 'Troops' platoons, is that it opens up lots of options for your Command HQ, such as advisors, tacticians, psykers, priests, naval spotters, medics etc..

I don't see how "Invisible Doctrines" matter. Esspecially since they are universal. As for HW squads being more proper in troops because they are guardsmen.... what? That don't make none sense!

If you forego the "the opponent can't see it" idea, which is a pretty bad cop out, considering how many things you can't see on enemy models (fearless, psychic powers, no-pain, Necron "We'll be back," True Grit, more and more go on). As I understand it, your opponent is allowed to look at your army list before each battle, and is allowed to know what you are going to be playing with. If they're not doing this and getting suprises, that's their fault. I have never had anyone get upset, nor heard of anyone becoming upset, about "Invisible Doctrines." Especially considering no one doctrine is really cheese.

Make some examples of how "invisible doctrines" are bad, unfair, or difficult, and maybe your arguement will be more clear?

Your idea of veterans being really good is, well, sort of strange, since they are considered overpriced by most people's standards (+2 points per model for +1 to BS and Infiltrators) and you're only allowed to take one per army.

Let's look at Light Infantry. For +1 point per guard squad models, ~+2 points per model of any other infantry unit, including command sections and weapons squads, and what do you get? An extra die to move through cover, infiltrate IF the mission permits, and ALLOWED to buy a sniper rifle INSTEAD of a heavy weapon. Doesn't actually sound like a major boost considering that they are only guardsmen.....

Another "invisible" doctrine, sharpshooters. Now this one could be represented if you want to, put scopes on the models, but I don't agree that it needs to be. At +10 points per unit (+1pt per squad model, ~+2pts for a HW and Command squad model), and you get to reroll failed to shoot dice that land on a 1. This is pretty much BS 3.5 for the price of BS 4 per model. Overpriced? I'd say so. Effect? It comes in handy now and again when you need that extra chance, but it is not much better than BS 3 really.

Jungle Fighters does need to be represented on the model, reduced armor save means you can't use basic Cadian or Steel Legion models, as they have SV5+. Though you could just SAY they are wearing weaker armor I guess... Plus they should be painted for jungle warfare. I wouldn't agree with someone using Cadians painted for urban ops and saying they are Jungle Fighters.

Raxmei wrote:I disagree about infiltrate.

I am quite surprised that so many players feel so strongly about Infiltrate. I guess we chalk this up to my personal tastes being counter to the norm. Sorry, guys.

ArbitorIan wrote:Good ideas, i have a few comments though!

I like the idea of including the hardened veterans in with the platoon. ... From the way you've written the Veterans' entry, it looks like they're not an upgrade at all, but an entirely separate unit...

I still generally disagree with using doctrines as a per-platoon approach. An IG army would come from a single regiment, and regiments in 40k fluff all tend to have the same training (all infiltrators or all heavy infantry etc). ANYWAY, your system would include much more of the army in a single platoon structure, which I guess goes to balance this a bit. Your 'main' troops choice under this system is likely to be a monstrous 7-squad platoon, all with the same doctrines, which I agree with...

However, I think the points should be higher for a lot of these 'doctrine' upgrades. We want to force a situation where the default, flexible IG build, the one that people tend to take to tournaments, is made up of standard IG, not specialists. The 'special' IG armies, such as Drop Troops or Grenadiers should be slightly more challenging to play, and for experienced players. What we don't want is a situation where a particular upgrade is such good value it becomes the 'default' competitive IG build...

And i also think light infantry should be included. It's a big part of established IG fluff to have SOME unit of skilled infiltrators. Maybe there could be a modelling requirement...

Chimeras need to be cheaper, but i think a 12/12/10 vehicle (with two heavy weapons) for 40 points is overdoing it a bit...! It's better armoured than a Rhino, has loads more firepower and weapon options, and can carry more models, and only costs 5 more points?

Thanks for the comments.

Yes, Veterans could be worded either way. I chose "upgrade", simply to emphasize how Veterans are better than the ordinary Guardsmen.

When you consider how typical Platoons would shake out, I don't think this is a big issue. Nothing forces a player to take multiple types of Platoons. And most likely, any mixed Platoons would be done as primary / secondary, with the secondary Platoon(s) filling semi-specialist roles. Forcing the player into a single Platoon type for the entire army, however is stifling. Imagine the outcry if SM or CSM were forced down to a single Troops pick, like Necrons.

When you look at the cost, a minimal Platoon weighs in at around 200 pts. If someone wants Skittles Platoons in 4 flavors (I can't imagine why), that would be 800 pts minimum, and is probably over 1000 pts if built rationally.

Most of the upgrades can't be priced too much higher - we're talking about 5-pt Guardsmen in a world of 6-pt Orks, not 15+pt MEQs. When you compare an upgraded Guardsman with an Ork at the same 6 pts cost per model, there just isn't much payback for what you spend. And when you consider that you buy 3 Guardsmen per MEQ, the fair cost of an upgrade should be only around 1/3 what a MEQ might pay. And then consider that you need to buy the same upgrade on every squad. And that none of the upgrades are free (unlike today). Quite frankly, if someone wants to take a ton of Guard, then that's probably a good thing. Even if they're slightly upgraded.

As far as "specialists" go, I hardly see Guard in Carapace as particularly "specialist". Grenadiers should still be available as Troops, as mostly as small points fillers, as Platoons are expensive and rather unwieldy.

And when you look at Default builds, is anybody not taking Drop Troops (FREE) and Close Order Drill (FREE)? If you had to pay an extra 25 pts (net) per squad, I doubt you see them with the same homogeneity. Anyhow, the points are trying to be fair, rather than trying to steer players toward pseudo-Conscript non-upgraded Guard. Also, note that most of the options are mutually exclusive. The Guard can pick a way to take more punishment (or simple numbers), or to get into position a bit quicker. IMO, it's better to have players pick their bonus, to encourage players to differentiate. But if you really think the upgrade points are generally too low, I'd rather add 5 pts to the base Guardsman.

A Razorback is the same 40 pts. It shoots better, but is less sturdy. It's a fair trade, all things considered. The 2 Heavy weapons are less accurate and the weakest available. The armor was *always* supposed to be heavier (AV12 front, vs AV11). And it transports Guardsmen instead of Marines. This is *the* only Guard Transport, NOT one of several Marine Transports, so it is OK for it to be "good" and "cheap" - remember, the Guard are losing AF squads, so they either have to buy 3+, or they tie to non-Scoring HQ / Elite units.

ArbitorIan wrote:Another nice thing about including Vets, Heavies and Specials in with the standard 'Troops' platoons, is that it opens up lots of options for your Command HQ, such as advisors, tacticians, psykers, priests, naval spotters, medics etc..

In theory, it does. However, Guard can't really afford to burn a lot of points outside Troops. In this regard, it is just like the upcoming Marines.

@Skinnitar:

I'm not gonig to be responding to your suggestions here, because you're derailing the thread. If you want to talk about "Doctrines", start another thread.

JohnHwangDD wrote:And when you look at Default builds, is anybody not taking Drop Troops (FREE) and Close Order Drill (FREE)? If you had to pay an extra 25 pts (net) per squad, I doubt you see them with the same homogeneity. Anyhow, the points are trying to be fair, rather than trying to steer players toward pseudo-Conscript non-upgraded Guard. Also, note that most of the options are mutually exclusive. The Guard can pick a way to take more punishment (or simple numbers), or to get into position a bit quicker. IMO, it's better to have players pick their bonus, to encourage players to differentiate. But if you really think the upgrade points are generally too low, I'd rather add 5 pts to the base Guardsman.

I think basically you're right - and of course, this is a thread about how YOU'd do an IG platoon. And you're right, things like Deep Strike and Close Order Drill have become standardised for exectly this reason. Thing is, GW does have a tendency to try and force certain builds. Partly, according to the BRB, to make sure armies are representative of the standard of their type.

For example, and on a slight tangent, a standard Chaos Marine costs 15 points (14??) but a Noise Marine (also Troops) costs 20. For what? Plus one Initiative and the option to PAY for special weapon upgrades. I don't think that really warrants a 5 point (6??) increase per model, especially for a unit geared towards shooting. However, GW do it to make sure that people take regular CSMs and not just whole armies of Noise Marines. It's not fair (not for me and me old Emperor's Children army, anyway!) but still makes it into the rules. Because if Noise Marines were good value (17pts?) then far too many people would automatically take them as their troops choice and we wouldn't see too many standard CSMs on the tables...

Anyway, back on track, I agree that you should pay a fair points cost, but a GW route is likely to make doctrines cost more purely to increase the amount of non-doctrine IG armies

ArbitorIan wrote:things like Deep Strike and Close Order Drill have become standardised for exectly this reason.

Thing is, GW does have a tendency to try and force certain builds. Partly, according to the BRB, to make sure armies are representative of the standard of their type.

For example, and on a slight tangent, a standard Chaos Marine costs 15 points (14??) but a Noise Marine (also Troops) costs 20.

Anyway, back on track, I agree that you should pay a fair points cost, but a GW route is likely to make doctrines cost more purely to increase the amount of non-doctrine IG armies

Yup. The worst thing is that this is a combo that works really well in 5th Edition. It's going to be tough taking away those crutches.

I don't have a problem with GW forcing certain builds per se, particularly as the points differential is usually fairly low. Drop Troops will have to cost at least 20 pts (which is high, BTW) because Chimeras are going to be 40-45 pts to compete with 40-pt Razorbacks. If Drop Troops are only 15 pts, then it wins out nearly every time for pure mobility.

That Noise Marine costs 20 pts because he's the only CSM Troops pick that can take a Heavy Weapon in a squad of 5 or 6 models. The only other small squads that can take Heavies are non-Scoring Veterans and Havocs. So the 5-pt premium is justified. Especially when you're talking about a small squad.

I think at this point, nearly everybody is (or should be) still taking Drop Troops and Close Order Drill because they are FREE upgrades to the Scoring Troops. Probably Scoring Grenadiers over Non-Scoring Veterans for small Objectives takers.

I'm not entirely sure that we really should push for entirely 5-pt generic Guardsmen. Otherwise, why bother with the offering the option at all? *cough*Warrior Weapons*cough* I kind of like the idea that there are very slight variations, and that most forces have some minor difference that is semi-unique. At least the modeling becomes more interesting.

I don't know if I like the Drop Troop build, its always struck me as something more for space marines, but that's probably just my personal taste.

I think the main thing about Infiltrate and light infantry is that they are really more common to modern warfare than drop troops or para-troops. For better or worse its just a more ingrained concept.

I know its off topic but, do you think with the shift of heavy weapon squads from the HQ platoon to the standard platoon, what do you see as doing with the HQ platoon? Do you think that the HQ platoon remain some platoon with other unit options or just downgrade them to the vulnerab;e state of being a single squad?

I like the idea that veterans are scoring units, since they are essentially guardsmen with a bit of experience.

Special weapon squads, however shoud remain in the command platoon, since they represent the resources available at company level. The command platoon is the company officer, not another platoon officer.

I think the overpricing of guardsmen could be balanced by making close order drill a standard part of squads. Same with vox's. This reflects the training that guardsmen have over conscripts. Also, what army would not give ANY of its soldiers a radio to comunicate with other squads?

I still feel that doctrine, such as light infantry, mechanised etc should remain at an army level, as the forces on the battlefield represented by a 40K tabletop would all be drawn from the same regiment. Most Space Marine armies are taken from the same chapter so why change it for the IG?

aka_mythos wrote:I don't know if I like the Drop Troop build, its always struck me as something more for space marines, but that's probably just my personal taste.

I think the main thing about Infiltrate and light infantry is that they are really more common to modern warfare than drop troops or para-troops. For better or worse its just a more ingrained concept.

I know its off topic but, do you think with the shift of heavy weapon squads from the HQ platoon to the standard platoon, what do you see as doing with the HQ platoon? Do you think that the HQ platoon remain some platoon with other unit options or just downgrade them to the vulnerab;e state of being a single squad?

Fast-roping Airborne & Paratroops are cool and real - they're just as much Special Forces as Infiltrate / Scout. Modern Warfare seems to be more about Mechanized warfare. But regardless of one's preference between Drop vs. Mech, mobility is important - we don't slog anymore.

Based on the feedback, I'm inclined to consider how Infiltrate might be restored - perhaps this might be a tradeoff for Sv6+ (or worse). This is more of a reaction to how Catachan models don't wear full fatigues, much less body armor...

With respect to HQ, I see it as overall command, so I'd want to keep the Sentinel Squad and Advisors, along with integrating other Character-driven stuff like Enginseers & Servitors. Or, potentially, this is where "exotic" Artillery might reside. Basically, this is a good place for stuff that shouldn't be Scoring, but add flavor to the army.

WeeHessy wrote:I like the idea that veterans are scoring units, since they are essentially guardsmen with a bit of experience.

Special weapon squads, however shoud remain in the command platoon,

I think the overpricing of guardsmen could be balanced by making close order drill a standard part of squads. Same with vox's.

I still feel that doctrine, such as light infantry, mechanised etc should remain at an army level, as the forces on the battlefield represented by a 40K tabletop would all be drawn from the same regiment. Most Space Marine armies are taken from the same chapter so why change it for the IG?

Thanks for the comments.

I much prefer to have Special Weapons Squads at the Platoon level, as they are infantrymen who are otherwise essentially identical to other Platoon forces, forcing a cleaner division between Command Platoon and Infantry Platoon.

I agree that Vox should be integral, but I disagree pretty strong on COD. COD won't be part of this list. If you want to discuss COD, I'll direct you to the 10-page Imperial Guardsman thread for follow-up, as my commentary on that particular item is scattered throughout and I'd prefer not to regurgitate it.

As I noted above, "doctrines" will likely be self-limited by the player. The platoon structure I propose here really encourages players to take large, full-size Platoons consisting of Command, Veteran, Special, Heavy, and 3 "Tactical" squads, weighing in at over 500 pts in non-mechanized form. A player wouldn't take more than 3 flavors, because they wouldn't be able to afford more than that in any but the largest games.

Most likely, you'd see a maximum platoon supported by minimal platoon(s). For example, a full Camo Platoon weighs in at 550+ pts, depending on weapons kit. A Cmd/Tac/Tac/SWS Carapace Drop Platoon is about 400 pts. And a Cmd/Tac/Tac/SWS Carapace Mech Platoon is almost 500 pts. For 3 flavors of Platoons, that's your full 1500 pts - you'd have basically no points for anything but the HQ Command Squad. At 1850, you can barely afford two Russes.

So from a practical standpoint, the cost of "cheap" equipment / transport upgrades add up rather quickly due to the inherent unwieldiness of the Platoon structure. And the fact that nothing is "FREE". This forces the player to make several design decisions about how he wants the force to play, because the points available are a strongly limiting factor.

I do not like that there are no more demo charges or that vet squads only have the option of 2 special weapons.

Demo Charges would be easy enough to add, but the chance of blowback is much higher now.

Veterans becoming Troops means they need to be limited relative to being Elites. Especially compared to Stormtroopers or Grenadiers.

You can always have some sort of rule written into the entry for demo charges to make them more survivable, but then again GW kinda made them this way as kinda a nod to the RT era human bombs. Allow the thrower to re-roll the deviation die.

I think allowing one Hardened Veteran Squad per full sized platoon would be a fair way to keep it in check.

Erm, I already limited Hardened Vets to one per full Platoon...

I know, I was just saying that I really didn't think you needed to worry too much about:

JohnHwangDD wrote: Veterans becoming Troops means they need to be limited relative to being Elites. Especially compared to Stormtroopers or Grenadiers.

That I thought that, the limitation you already had in place was enough.

Veterans are a step up on stats and have better weapon options but cost more. Couple that to a limit based on platoon strength and I think you have enough.

Ahh, got it. Right now, they're such no-brainers, I was thinking another notch was needed.

While I know realism is rarely something mandatory to 40k, I think in this instant its ok to say that realistically veterans over green troops is always a no brainier (except with cannon fodder).

In the grand scheme of the universe I don't think its too much to say that that after spending the 240 points bare bone that 10 models be allowed to take an upgrade to make them better and give them the option of taking more weapons. In all likely hood a platoon will end up being closer to 400 points before thinking about replacing a squad with a veteran squad. It is a bargain when you ultimately spend enough points to get it.

What abilities were you thinking Veterans would inherently have? It seems like with the way you have it, they're really just gonna be higher stat guards with an extra special weapon, that they appear to lose infiltrate. If that's the case I think it might be a fair trade off to give a veteran squad the option of taking a second equipment upgrade.

Ahh, got it.

Yeah, I was trying to pinch them back to more like regular Guardsmen. 5-man w/ 2 Specials with option for 10-men adding Heavy. This is 2 BS4 Specials and a BS4 Heavy - a very solid unit, esp as they have Ld8.

I don't like Platoon-based Veterans having Infiltrate separate from the rest of the Platoon. As above, I think Infiltrate could come back in some form, but should probably be Platoon-wide.

Yeah I agree, giving the veterans infiltrate only work if you want to treat them like the platoons scouts, but that doesn't seem to be part of the overarching theme.

I do think they need a little something to further distinguish them. That's why I proposed they get a second equipment upgrade option. That way they can maintain their position in the platoon as specialists.

Also do you think their Heavy Weapon option, might be a special weapon or heavy weapon at 10 men?

Yeah, I could totally see the 10-man giving the option for Heavy or Special, along with access to specialist kit like Demo Charges & Sniper Rifles.

I was thinking on "light infantry" and how that would work. I know you don't like it because its "invisible" representation, but I was thinking about an alternate approach and I wanted to see what you thought.

Light infantry has been tasked with the role of forward skirmishers who move ahead a larger formation to disrupt the enemies movement. To allow them to move more quickly light infantry usually sacrificed the use and deployment of heavy weapons. Also these light infantry units were composed of irregulars or militia who were expendable and not expected to be as disciplined to hold their place in a larger deployment. By going with this more traditional concept of light infantry, if you ask me it sounds allot like what the IG would use conscripts for.

Conscripts, don't have the heavy weapons, they don't have discipline, and they're expendable. Strikes me they might be employed in that infiltrating or ahead of the main force role.

Hmm... That's not a bad idea, although I don't think it meshes well with the Platoon concept. I see Light Infantry as a Platoon, and Conscripts as something different.

Anyhow, I'd look at Light Infantry as:
- Infiltrate, Move through Cover, Sv6+
Basically, they'd be akin to DA Scouts, and model as Catachan, Tallarn, or Tanith.

WRT I don't much like the idea of Conscripts as Whiteshields at all, mostly because I don't like the idea that they're regulars. I would rather envision them as stand-ins for Penal / Beastmen Legions with Flamers and DCs and such:
Conscript WS3 BS2 S3 T3 W1 I3 A1 Ld6 Sv- LP&CCW
4pts each, size 10-20. Taskmaster I4 A2 Ld7.