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So I know not everyone has easy access to the Space Marine Codex but many have been playing games with store copies. I have as well and got into a discussion over how Combat Squads works. Below is from the new Space Marine Codex

The decision to split the unit into combat squads, as well as which models go into each combat squad, must be made when the unit is deployed. Both combat squads can be deployed in seperate locations. The one exception to this is a unit that arrives by Drop Pod. The player can choose to split such a unit ito combat squads when it disembarks from the Drop Pod.

If you decide to split a unit into combat squads, then each combat squad is treated as a seperate unit for all game purposes from that point.

So, there is no mention of reserves in this codex, unlike Dark Angels. 5ed does use the term deploy in the various rules for reserves so it does seem to me that it is possible to do so, although it takes some thought as far as how it works for deep strikers, out flankers and also what you cannot do from reserves (like combat squading a unit riding in a transport from reserve).

What are your thoughts?

I don't see how this could be an issue at all, "during deployment, when declaring which units are left in reserve, the player must clearly explain the organisation of his reserves to his opponent"

Why would this phrase not extend to combat squadding a unit? The only exception to this rule would be the drop pod which specifically makes an allowance for deciding after arriving on the table, otherwhise, when you make the decision to keep the units in reserves you also have to decide whether they are combat squadded or not.

Drunkspleen wrote:I don't see how this could be an issue at all, "during deployment, when declaring which units are left in reserve, the player must clearly explain the organisation of his reserves to his opponent"

Why would this phrase not extend to combat squadding a unit? The only exception to this rule would be the drop pod which specifically makes an allowance for deciding after arriving on the table, otherwhise, when you make the decision to keep the units in reserves you also have to decide whether they are combat squadded or not.

Agreed

That's how Isee it as well. Everything is declared during deployment now so that's when you decide your CS status. Although it is very odd that Drop Pod squads split as they dissembark. Kinda cool!

Actually I don't think you can combat squad when you put them into reserve -- it has to be done when they actually arrive. I used to think that you did it durig deployment when we started discussing this in our group but the rules do not allow it.

Combat Squad rules does not say during deployment, it says when the unit is 'deployed'. When you place a unit in reserve -- it is not deployed yet so you cannot make a combat squad split. It is only when the unit in reserve arrives is it actually deployed. At that point you can then make the split just before you move em on (or deepstrike).

This does limit some of the things you can do with combat squads.
-You cannot deploy one combat squad on the board and place the other one in reserve.
-You also cannot move a 10 man squad in from reserves in a rhino and then split them (as that would require having two seperate units in a transport which is not allowed).

winterman wrote:Actually I don't think you can combat squad when you put them into reserve -- it has to be done when they actually arrive. I used to think that you did it durig deployment when we started discussing this in our group but the rules do not allow it.

Combat Squad rules does not say during deployment, it says when the unit is 'deployed'. When you place a unit in reserve -- it is not deployed yet so you cannot make a combat squad split. It is only when the unit in reserve arrives is it actually deployed. At that point you can then make the split just before you move em on (or deepstrike).

This does limit some of the things you can do with combat squads.
-You cannot deploy one combat squad on the board and place the other one in reserve.
-You also cannot move a 10 man squad in from reserves in a rhino and then split them (as that would require having two seperate units in a transport which is not allowed).

this is correct.

the only two times a unit may be deployed is during deployment before the first turn or after a successful reserves roll has been made and the unit moves onto the table. these are therefore the only two instances when you may decide that a unit may split into combat squads.

thats kind of why I think you can have a Drop pod and a Razorback. One deploys on the Board the other Deploys in the drop pod.

thats kind of why I think you can have a Drop pod and a Razorback. One deploys on the Board the other Deploys in the drop pod.

You can't put a combat squad in each though in that case.

I played a game yesterday and this came up:

The set-up was Dawn of war. I had 4x10 tac squads w/ Razorbacks coming on first turn from reserve. I declared that I would combat squad all of them before I moved on. I moved the Razorbacks on 8" w/ the 5-man heavy weapon embarked and disembarked them 2" into terrain. I then moved the 5-man special weapon squad onto the board disembarked and embarked into the razorback that just unloaded the the other half of the squad. Was this bad form? The only question we had was whether a dedicated transport can disembark and embark the same turn, but we could not find any wording prohibiting it.
In addition, the question arose, can the squad move, then run in the shooting phase, then embark. We declared that NO because embarking/disembarking had to occur in the movement phase only, not the shooting phase after the run move.

Hollismason wrote:thats kind of why I think you can have a Drop pod and a Razorback. One deploys on the Board the other Deploys in the drop pod.

Except that, once again they're split on deployment. Putting them into Reserves isn't deploying them. It's done instead of deploying them.

dornsfist wrote: I then moved the 5-man special weapon squad onto the board disembarked and embarked into the razorback that just unloaded the the other half of the squad.

Wait... so you had them come on in Razorbacks, disembark from them, and embark onto the other combat squad's razorback?

I don't see any reason that wouldn't work, unless you take a really strict reading of the embarking rules and require that squads actually move in order to embark, since it can be argued that disembarking isn't moving.

The bigger problem would be the taking of a razorback for each combat squad...

In addition, the question arose, can the squad move, then run in the shooting phase, then embark. We declared that NO because embarking/disembarking had to occur in the movement phase only, not the shooting phase after the run move.

You were correct.

There were only 4 razorbacks, one for each 10-man tac squad that I combat squaded. Each razorback came on with the heavy weapon combat squad embarked while the special weapon combat squad came on running behind their respective razorback assigned to the original 10 man squad, then embarked after the heavy weapon combat squad was disembarked.

insaniak wrote:

Hollismason wrote:

dornsfist wrote: I then moved the 5-man special weapon squad onto the board disembarked and embarked into the razorback that just unloaded the the other half of the squad.

Wait... so you had them come on in Razorbacks, disembark from them, and embark onto the other combat squad's razorback?

I don't see any reason that wouldn't work, unless you take a really strict reading of the embarking rules and require that squads actually move in order to embark, since it can be argued that disembarking isn't moving.

The problem with this is that you can't voluntarily both embark and disembark on the same turn (page 66, right under the Embarking and Disembarking heading).

dornsfist wrote:..., then embarked after the heavy weapon combat squad was disembarked.

That's certainly acceptable, then.

solkan wrote:The problem with this is that you can't voluntarily both embark and disembark on the same turn (page 66, right under the Embarking and Disembarking heading).

Ah yes... Good catch. Not that it applies in this case, though, as the 'Disembark then embark' bit appears to have been a typo.

I moved the Razorbacks on 8" w/ the 5-man heavy weapon embarked

Problem I see is right here. You can't combat squad the unit until you go to move it on, yet you had to have declared what was embarked in the razorback at the time of deployment which is too early for actually splitting up into combat squads.

Actually, that's a fair point.

You need to declare the unit in the Transport when you declare your Reserves, during initial Deployment.

You can't split the squad until they actually deploy, and so they would either all have to be in the transport, or walking. There's no way to actually get only a single combat squad into the transport in Reserves.


Personally, I'd probably allow it anyway...

what about assault marines or Vanguard marines with JPs? would they deep strike as a 10 man squad then split up? or would they DS as two 5 man squads?

As I see it, the 10 man squad must be put into reserve as a whole and rolled for arrival as single unit. When they arrive but before actually place/scatter you'd then decide to split and organize the squads. If split: place and scatter each squad as normal as they are now seperate squads from that point on.

I think people are not very good at understanding basic english structure and are wanting to put something into the rules that is not there.


All it is saying is that when you deploy space marines you declare if it is going to be split into a combat squad from then on it is a completely seperate unit.

Deployed is not past tense as in when they were deployed, its present tense when the space marines are being deployed.

It specifically states that the two units may be placed in two seperate locations, if not then you would have to start the ten man squad in the same unit.

The only instance that you can otherwise not during deployment split a space marine squad into a combat squad is with coming out from a drop pod.


Okay here is another side of the argument.


Which combat squad gets the Razorback or Rhino as its dedicated transport. Do they both own it? By that logical line of treating deployment you would do something illegal because you cannot place two seperate units starting the game in a single dedicated transport.

So which one of the combat squads owns the dedicated transport?

Transport ownership doesn't matter, as any transport can be used by any unit that can fit in it.

Except:

"...when it is deployed it can only carry the unit it was selected with (plus any independent characters). After the game begins, it can then transport any friendly infantry unit..."

When it is being deployed , IE in the ACT Of DEPLOYING, not having BEEN DEPLOYED.


If that were the case it would not specifically mention the ability to place the squads in two seperate locations. Unless you want to just go with the fuzzy logic that the deployment is some sort of mystical quasi phase that exists in the etherium.


Its not rocket science, its a very simple sentence that people are reading incorrectly.

It just means that at no other time other than drop pods can they be split into five man squads. You cant start two seperate squads in one transport.

The best example is to just read Multiple Units section of the deployment rules where it states, some codexes allow the player to include several units at the cost of one organizations slot.

Thats it, this is not complicated.

If you choose to complicate it then I have a ton of questions for you, for instance how can I buy a rhino for them and deploy five in the rhino when declaring Troop Transports for units seperate units can not be placed into the same dedicated transport, Ive created a illegal deployment if I do this.

So it seems like I could not put my five man with missile launcher on the board and put the five man with flamer in a drop pod.

What if it's for the first turn drop pod assualt? or if I put the squad in the pod do I have no choice but to put the whole squad into the pod?

Hollismason wrote:The best example is to just read Multiple Units section of the deployment rules where it states, some codexes allow the player to include several units at the cost of one organizations slot.

Sorry, but that proves what, exactly, in relation to this thread?

If you choose to complicate it then I have a ton of questions for you, for instance how can I buy a rhino for them and deploy five in the rhino when declaring Troop Transports for units seperate units can not be placed into the same dedicated transport, Ive created a illegal deployment if I do this.

I'd love to answer this... but I have no idea what you're asking.

When you decide to deploy your squad of marines you decide to split them into combat squads, once you decide to do that which is done before physically placing them. You decide what to do with them.


Everyone is interpreting this as physically placing the models on the board then saying okay they are combat squads let me move them apart or whatever.


Its done as you are deploying, part of deploying is declaring which units are placed on the board and which are placed in reserve.

You do not place a unit on the board and then remove it and say this is now in reserve you just say okay well I am not deploying this unit it is in reserve.


How is this complicated?

I would really have to read the SM codex to see if they did something funky like the summon daemon information for the CSM codex where they put the total information on different pages and sections of the book.

Re-reading the rulebook, under Reserves on pg 94 that "when deploying their army, players may choose not to deploy one or more of the units in their army and instead leave them in reserve." If you choose not to deploy them, then they are not deployed.

When you roll for reserves, then you deploy that unit, and would have a choice of splitting up combat squads, because that is thats squads deployment. Gives you flexibility if they don't have a transport (transport problem brought up earlier)

An exception is made for the Drop Pod because this it is a transport for the unit, and it comes in from reserve (not sure how drop pods work, again not having the SM Codex in question) and because as Nurglitch posted previously:

Except: "...when it is deployed it can only carry the unit it was selected with (plus any independent characters). After the game begins, it can then transport any friendly infantry unit...

Why make the exception if you could split up your units into combat squads when they were in reserve?

I think people are not very good at understanding basic english structure and are wanting to put something into the rules that is not there.

And I think somone one is not reading the rules.

All it is saying is that when you deploy space marines you declare if it is going to be split into a combat squad from then on it is a completely seperate unit.

Deployed is not past tense as in when they were deployed, its present tense when the space marines are being deployed.

No dispute there. That is a key part of my POV

It specifically states that the two units may be placed in two seperate locations, if not then you would have to start the ten man squad in the same unit.

Ok I agree here as well. However until you actually make the decision to split the combat squad, that 10 man unit is still 1 unit -- not two.

The only instance that you can otherwise not during deployment split a space marine squad into a combat squad is with coming out from a drop pod.

That is not what the rules say at all. You are adding something that is not there. All the codex says is that the decision to split must be made when the unit is deployed. A unit in reserve is NOT deployed until you actually roll for it to arrive. Read the BRB if you don't believe me (or check the quotes above). So the part of about the drop pod is not an exclusion about reserves, it is an exclusion of splitting a unit that is deployed in a transport -- something that is normally not allowed by the rules since it would require 2 units to be in the pod.

Okay here is another side of the argument.

Which combat squad gets the Razorback or Rhino as its dedicated transport. Do they both own it? By that logical line of treating deployment you would do something illegal because you cannot place two seperate units starting the game in a single dedicated transport.

Yep. So if you embark a 10 man squad into a rhino in reserve -- they CANNOT be split into combat squads because in order to do so would require 2 units to be in the rhino at some point and that is not allowed.

Correct - however, when the ten-man squad comes in from reserves, then you are deploying them, and at that time you can combat squad them. So, that transport is deployed (moves on the table) with one combat squad, and you move the second combat squad on also. It is the act of deploying it and two combat squads that brings it onto the table.

Therefore, yes, you could have two combat squads, one in the razorback.

Remember that not all models deploy exactly simultaneously - even in one unit, you only move one on at a time, simply due to physical considerations. So, the fact that one combat squad moves on first does not cause a failure of deployment - using that interpretation would prevent any unit from moving onto the table at all (i.e. moving on the combat squads is all one action, as opposed to moving on each model separately.)

This is a good existentialist debate "at what time do the combat squads exist..."

you cant have a combat squad half in reserves and the other half on the board it does say "when the UNIT is deployed" that means the unit as in the full 10 man squad has to deploy first then they can go into combat squads

Antonin: The problem is you declare the unit is embarked on the transport when they go into reserve. I can see perhaps an argument for combat squading a 10 man squad in a rhino from reserve using your argument (although I still belive that it requires at some point, even off the table, for two unit to be in the rhino and thus should not be allowed) but you cannot embark a 10 man squad into a razorback, thus there's no way to have a combat squad in a razorback in reserve by RAW. It would have to roll for arrival and deploy seperate from its 10 man squad.

1) A 10-man tac unit (ML & flamer) w/ razorback in reserve declares that it will combat squad prior to coming on the table.

2) The player declares that the combat squad with the ML will enter embarked in the razorback and the combat squad w/ the flamer will walk on.

3) The razorback moves 8" onto the table and the combat squad with the ML disembarks from the razorback.

4) The combat squad w/ the flamer moves to within 2" of the razorback and embarks into the vehicle.

Steps 1-3 are perfectly legal. The only concern is with the disembark/embark in the same movement phase. Is that legal?