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I'm wondering, when a fig is modelled with a holster and a CCW, is it reasonable to assume that game to game, one could claim the holster to contain different weapons?
Has this been clarified?

A holster is a holster. What's in it is up to you.

For fairness, since weapons are more usually displayed in hand, I generally tell an opponent who's carrying what at the start of the game rather than springing it on them later... but there's no reason it can't change from game to game.

WYSIWYG to me means that you literally have to see what the weapon is in order to be able to use it.

That is, you need to be able to see that it is indeed a plasma pistol (or something suitable if you want to use the 'counts as' convention) for it to use the rules for a plasma pistol.

I wouldn't mind if that holster was on a standard CSM or SM model, since they're all supposed to have bolt pistols anyway. But to treat it as any other weapon ("it's...uhh...a Relic Blade with a weird handle!") would not sit well with me.

Having a holster is not WYSIWYG as you don't actually see what kind of weapon it contains.

You can't just model all your models with large boxes and crates that could contain any weapon and claim it's WYSIWYG.

Also you cannot tell by the holster as it is often smaller even than a bolt pistol. In fact for Marines only the commander sprue holster looks anything like wide enough to fit the bolt pistols modelled.

So unless you assume all holsters carry snub pistols (and even then sometimes super thin ones) they are inherently not WYSIWYG.

Thus a holster carries a 'pistol'. Exactly which is dependent on the army list, not the model.

I think as long as it is reasonable, like you cant say it holds a missile launcher or thunder hammer when it could bearly hold a pistol

We have always said that a holster can hold any sort of pistol, so far as I know. As has been said, the weapons are so huge compared to the models carrying them that the holsters could maybe hold their PDA but nothing more, but still, a holster carries a pistol.
You should of course point out what manner of pistol if it isn't standard equipment before game and not assume your opponant will guess (or be pleased when on turn 4 your Aspiring Champ whips out his plasma pistol), but you should be doing that anyway. I know my eyes are not necessarily good enough to spot a plasma pistol from 4 feet away, unless it is really painted brightly.

I've modeled all of my new Chaos Marines with a bolter in one hand, a chainsword in the other and the pistol holster-sash on the hip. I'll take pictures tonight and post them up. If you don't think that's WYSIWYG, then you're mad.

Asmodeus wrote:I've modeled all of my new Chaos Marines with a bolter in one hand, a chainsword in the other and the pistol holster-sash on the hip. I'll take pictures tonight and post them up. If you don't think that's WYSIWYG, then you're mad.

Unless you can clearly see it's a bolt pistol in the holster it's not WYSIWYG.

Webbe wrote:

Asmodeus wrote:I've modeled all of my new Chaos Marines with a bolter in one hand, a chainsword in the other and the pistol holster-sash on the hip. I'll take pictures tonight and post them up. If you don't think that's WYSIWYG, then you're mad.

Unless you can clearly see it's a bolt pistol in the holster it's not WYSIWYG.

it is not a requirement to model all of the wargear a model comes with automatically. they are assumed to be carrying it somewhere. you only need to model wargear when it is some thing out of the norm. as a rule i would say that special weapons (including unsusal pistols) be modeled. it doesnt take too much effort to do.

I have never heard of a story where someone objects to a the description of a holstered pistol where person doing the objecting comes off as anything other than a prat.

My bike sarge has a holstered pistol, and it varies between plasma and bolter depending on what I want the squad to do. Since I make sure my opponents are clear on loadout at the start of the game, I have never heard any objections.

The fact that there is no definitive WYSIWYG rule makes pinning down a 'correct' answer to the subject difficult. IF someone's going to throw a hissy fit over it, fine, I'll dig out a plasma pistol and drop it on his base.

Webbe wrote:

Asmodeus wrote:I've modeled all of my new Chaos Marines with a bolter in one hand, a chainsword in the other and the pistol holster-sash on the hip. I'll take pictures tonight and post them up. If you don't think that's WYSIWYG, then you're mad.

Unless you can clearly see it's a bolt pistol in the holster it's not WYSIWYG.

Anal much? It's a pistol in a holster and as Chaos Marines can only get two types of pistols, if there are other non-bolter weapons in the squad a reasonable person can assume they're bolt pistols in the holster.

Don't spring it on someone, and 99% of people won't object to having a plasma pistol in a holster. I can't ever recall a plasma pistol winning a game for anyone, but I'm sure it can happen.

I mean, what's a Chaos Lord to do - grow a third hand so he can hold his combi-weapon, daemon weapon, and plasma pistol? And if you model him with a third hard or arm, but there's no rules for it or ability to select it, are you still WYSIWIG? And while it works for chaos, loyalist marines don't have the option of mutations.

well all the SM holsters have boltpistols in them so you would have to cut the handle off and put part of a plasma pistol or what ever you want to use in it to see, it that would be wysiwyg

Platuan4th wrote:

Webbe wrote:

Asmodeus wrote:I've modeled all of my new Chaos Marines with a bolter in one hand, a chainsword in the other and the pistol holster-sash on the hip. I'll take pictures tonight and post them up. If you don't think that's WYSIWYG, then you're mad.

Unless you can clearly see it's a bolt pistol in the holster it's not WYSIWYG.

Anal much? It's a pistol in a holster and as Chaos Marines can only get two types of pistols, if there are other non-bolter weapons in the squad a reasonable person can assume they're bolt pistols in the holster.

I never said I wouldn't allow it. In fact I never bitch about WYSIWYG, not even in tournaments and I use "counts as" a lot in my games.
It's simply not What You See Is What You Get as you can't actually see that it's a bolt pistol.

You don't actually SEE special ammunition for weapons either, so is that new scout heavy bolter with hellfire rounds illegal too?

Wyches carrying Wych Weapons are considered as having Splinter pistols regardless of being on the model. I can't remember if that was stated in the 2nd ed DE codex or was somewhere else but I always wanted to put holstered pistols on them anyway.

Danny Internets wrote:You don't actually SEE special ammunition for weapons either, so is that new scout heavy bolter with hellfire rounds illegal too?

Its not illegal you just have to model an open crate full of bullets with the word "HELLFIRE" spraypainted on the side of the crate and presto it's WYSIWYG.



Thats what some people would say anyways. I don't ever bother with WYSIWYG for wargear, doctorines, the old space marine divergent chapter powers (TrueGrit), etc. Because its dumb anyways. All the WYSIWYG I care about is the type of model and basic weapon load out. Beyond that just hand me a copy of your army list and I know what you got. Much simpler on the models and your life that way.

Thanks for the replies gang, glad I could stimulate some sort of healthy debate. I ask because Im using SL seargents for my Armoured Fist unit leaders, and I want them upgraded to vet sarge with plasma. But the minis Ive got are the ones holding the ork head in thier hand, sword in the other. But they've got a holstered pistol and normally Id assume it to be a laspistol but its pretty big for a laspistol. Just my humble opinion.

OT, since were in you make the call, what is this figure?

http://cgi.ebay.ca/Commander_W0QQitemZ140271370540QQihZ004QQcategoryZ68406QQssPageNameZWDVWQQrdZ1QQcmdZViewItem

At first I thought it was the Cadian commander with a different head, but Im not sure. I want the head! Anybody?