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There have been a number of new books out, and the question is: Is Extended Carapace worth it, given the new Codices that have been released. Hive Tyrants and Carnis pay 25 points, Flyrants pay 35.

Orks: Klaws everywhere.
Necrons: Don't really have any AP3.
Spase Marinez and Spikey Marines: Spikey Marines pack Plasma, Meltaguns and Powerfists; Spase Marinez pack more Missile Launchers these days but have lots of AP2 as well. Techmarine weapons and Meltaweapons.
Eldar have their own share of long range and close combat weaponry.
And so on. It is really only the Inquisition that might have problems dealing with it.

So it would seem that 2+ saves for Tyranids are not really worthwhile. It used to stack with Zoanathropes, who now get cover saves. It costs 110 points to give a walking Tyrant, a Flyrant and two Carnis a 2+ save. You could include for example a Red Terror or 3 Warriors (who now Run and get a Cover save) for the same price.

Who voted option three?

What about on genestealers and warriors?

I don't play tyranids, but it seems to me that everybody I played against always used to take them on genestealers, but now nobody does.

Flavius Infernus wrote:What about on genestealers and warriors?

I don't play tyranids, but it seems to me that everybody I played against always used to take them on genestealers, but now nobody does.

with cover now giving everything a 4+ cover save, EC on genestealers is more or less pointless. if you can get a better save for free why spend the points?

With Genestealers, it depends on whether you have other stuff in your army that will screen the stealers or not.

Flyrants?
Pay what?

It is as worth taking in 5th as in 4th.

Ummmm. . .flying tyrants can't take Extended Carapace. But I assume you're talking about Warp Field in that case.


P.S. I don't get your poll. If you're only talking about it for Tyrants and Carnifexes you should change the poll question to reflect that.

Centurian99 wrote:With Genestealers, it depends on whether you have other stuff in your army that will screen the stealers or not.

I disagree. I've found that in 5th edition:

1) defending units getting to react before attacks are made (which means more attacks come towards the stealers).
2) the rending nerf.
3) Enemy casualties are pulled from out of the engagement zone to ensure full attacks come back at the stealers.
4) The inevitable return fire if said enemy squad *is* wiped out.


All these things mean Stealers more than ever benefit from a 4+ armor save. Yes, gaunts can be used to screen them in the first two turns but after that the 4+ save becomes pretty darn valuable.

Yeah, close combat troops have to be able to weather more than just the approach these days.
(Which is good, to my mind.)
On tyrants and carnies, I'd say it's worth it if you fight a lot of vanilla marines and orks. Because a lot of the time their high strength weapons are gonna be AP3.

In regards to cover saves for TMC, cover saves were more abundant in 4th as TMCs easily could take advantage of abundant area terrain. TLOS in 5th makes it more difficult for your TMC to get those cover saves now (unless we are talking about tyrant with tyrant guard).

I think the real issue in 5th for my Nidzilla is the shift to high rate of fire weaponry at my FLGS as well as template weapons and other guns that deny cover saves and a shift away from high rate of fire AP 2 weapons. Now, I am trading shots with heavy bolters, heavy flamers, missle launchers, cyclones, meltas, sniper rifles, and stearn guard. So I find that I am suffering more wounds from AP3 and higher weapons that can be saved by the 2+ armour. I play a high # of marines who are fielding stearn guard in greater #s and in DP. Without the 2+ save, each unit of stearn guard in double tap threat range (from DP) can drop a TMC in one rd of shooting.

The EC on genestealers is still a good option as they are taking more attacks back in the assault phase thanks to wound consolidation, counter assault, and rending nerf. They are especially vulnerable when they blow up transports and get shot up and flamed by the no-longer pinned transportees. And again, EC helps against stearn guard spam (as unlike H Flamers they can't take away both you cover and armour save). The EC has saved me models in a unit each and everytime I played with it, because inevitabley they find themselves out in the open getting shot.

yakface wrote:
Ummmm. . .flying tyrants can't take Extended Carapace. But I assume you're talking about Warp Field in that case.


P.S. I don't get your poll. If you're only talking about it for Tyrants and Carnifexes you should change the poll question to reflect that.

Done.

Yes, I meant just Monstrous Creatures. And the Flyrant can take Warp Field.

I used to say a Carnifex could get a free wound, could save one wound from T7 and one or two wounds from the 2+.

I ... guess that is still what it is. It definately helps out against normal S4 attacks, especially with the new lack of killzones. Keep rolling 2+ saves that thing could live until the end of the game.

I was just wondering what people would say. Extended Carapace helps close combat Warriors, too.

yakface wrote:
I disagree. I've found that in 5th edition:

1) defending units getting to react before attacks are made (which means more attacks come towards the stealers).
2) the rending nerf.
3) Enemy casualties are pulled from out of the engagement zone to ensure full attacks come back at the stealers.
4) The inevitable return fire if said enemy squad *is* wiped out.


All these things mean Stealers more than ever benefit from a 4+ armor save. Yes, gaunts can be used to screen them in the first two turns but after that the 4+ save becomes pretty darn valuable.

Good points. I've never run my Stealer Shock w/o Extended Carapace, because I've not nothing to screen them going in.

Well from my perspective, genestealers without extended carapace are a lot more vulnerable to my regular AP5 flamers (for which cover save wouldn't apply anyway). It's a lot more trouble to lug a AP4 heavy flamer out there to get a shot at genestealers.

But I recognize now that this is off-topic.

My thinking was two-fold. First, Orks Power Klaws and Thunderhammer Terminators/ Terminators in general seem to be more common.

The other thinking was Zoanathropes. Since they get a 4+ cover now, sticking 2+ saves is not as viable as it once was. If your opponent has Missile Launchers he can just shoot them at Gaunts and save his AP2 weapons for the few big nasties you might happen to have. The thinking was that while it is still good it may not be as good as it once was.

Tacobake: I guess, I am missing your point on Zoanthropes. They have warp field as standard (not sure what your orginal reference to stacking is about?). Are you saying they are a less viable unit?

I was never a big fan of Zoes in 4rth given thier expensive points and BS of 3. In 5th as an anti-tank role, I still think thier low BS, low rate of fire, need to take a psychic test, and 24" threat range...makes them sub-par.

Going back on topic though, I guess what I have been seeing is less plasma guns and more meltas (which is a bonus for TMC as it is 1 shot vs 2) and flamers. Assault cannons got the rending nerf (again a bonus for TMC). More HB, HF, and missle launchers that have sub-par AP but good wounding potential (anti-horde) which supports a 2+ save. Stearnguard (another good reason for 2+ armour). I wouldn't say EC for monsterous creatures is a must, but it can give you some tactical advantage against certain armies that would otherwise exploit death by wounds.

I would also say that EC is better choice for CC TMC, Heavy dakka fexes and dakka tyrants that are by nature going to be in the enemys double tap threat range.

wyomingfox wrote:Tacobake: I guess, I am missing your point on Zoanthropes. They have warp field as standard (not sure what your orginal reference to stacking is about?). Are you saying they are a less viable unit?

What I am saying is that a 4+ cover save vs the 6+ invulnerable makes them more viable. It also means it is more likely your opponents will fire their Lascannons at the Carnifexes, especially since Zoanathropes are only T4. It was just an argument, I do not play Tyranids myself.

I can't pick a response on the poll because it is very dependent

Assault oriented TMC: Well worth taking a 2+ save, for the same reasons yakface mentioned for stealers. You will be close to enemies and invariably take lots of high rate of fire, as well as ccw attacks. 2+ with T6 is great here.

Shooting oriented TMC: Not as worth it usually. Depends on metagame though (seeing lotsa sternguard, lootas or antihorde weaponry, may be worth taking).

Hybrid oriented TMC: These guys go up in points so fast I am not much of a fan. I think yakface had a good point in his carnifex article though -- you may as well protect your investment as much as possible and give them the works in defensive upgrades.