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hey guys... do you need to model the grenades and all the other weapon options onto chaos space marines? Or because you don't have an option not to take them you don't have to?

I was wondering this because my friend is going to the Ard boyz next round and I want to make sure he has them 100% WYSIWYG if he needs it there.

For standard equipment where the unit has no choice, most people won't mind. People have always been lenient about things like grenades, especially.

As with all WYSIWYG questions, it's simply a matter of confusion. As long as you can't confuse them for having something different, then it should be fine.

noone will mind. If they do say, "see that ball of lent? That is my grenade." I bet it would work

I plan to contest all my opponents figs that arn't 100% WYSIWYG. Missing a frag grenade? Disqualified! Free 2500 point army here I come!

hah, the grenade is up the guys ass, why do you think they die so easy?

Im not a nazi (i say it as if its a bad thing lol) whan it comes to it but i hate people that pull out strom bolters out of there back pocket or a vox, or power klaw.

Im with Aduro, i'm going to starting making everyone have basicly 100% of what they say, except for those which are forced to take it, eg swooping hawks and haywire grenades, but if you can model them on then please do

Who care?I play for fun,maybe for win,but not for quarrel.

Cannot see a grenade on an infantry?Your opponent can explain that the soldier hide his grenade in his ass so you cannot see them outside....

SM come with BP in the new dex - so I wouldn't worry about having to model it, the only thing I would model is an upgrade (even then PP would still be in his holster). Missiles Launchers/Lascannons/Plasma Cannons/Needlers/etc should be modeled (its half the fun of the game).

Bolter/Sonic Blasters, while there is a major difference, don't really need to be distinguished when it comes to noise marines.

Normally you would get away with not showing all the standard kit for a unit, and only upgrades, there's no need to model frag grenades on your tactical marines if every tactical marine on the board automatically comes with them.

Can someone point me to the WYSIWYG rules in the 5th edition book because I'm having trouble finding them right now

I don't think there is a rule in the rulebook. Its part of almost any tournament rule though.

Anyone else notice that the ruling for bases is now almost worded that you have to ask permission or at least make sure its ok with your opponent to use bases that are larger than what the model is supplied with.

Harkainos wrote: Bolter/Sonic Blasters, while there is a major difference, don't really need to be distinguished when it comes to noise marines.

Well, I disagree with this. You have to know what is what before a game starts and proxying stuff when you are not playing a casual game with a friend is not a recipe for fun. There is nothing much worse during a tournament game then having something spring up on you.

"Oh, we never determined what cover save these craters my Crisis Suits are in? 4+ OK?"

"Did I mention that this Chaos Lord with Jetpack is actually Kharn the Betrayer?"

- Blackbone

I'm sorry, let me clarify. I have never seen a noise marine pointed to carry a bolter... so I always assume they have sonic blasters (even if they look like bolters) - If my opponent doesn't use sonic blaster for his noise marines, all the better for me.

Craters always give you a 4+ save - its in the book.

I would think it is obvious that you should discuss your list with your opponent and if he has a non kharne model 'counting as' kharne' that would be the best place to discuss it.

In any regards we are talking about weapons, not proxy models.

Any tournament I played in around my area in ontario enforces a rule where you must have a copy of your list for each opponent you face. This is way better than the anal retentive enforcement of WYSIWYG. You take the list at the start look it over quickly and you are good to go. If you have a question because you don't see Kharne on the board or in their model case you simply ask to point him out. Works for players who create and use awsome custom themed/kit-bashed/user made models in their tourney armies as well, which is part of the fun of the game(as someone mentioned above, but I am twisting it in the way I favour ).

Pros:
- You can look at the list and know exactly what he has at any point in time without interrupting him while he is planning his strat or rolling dice.
- You get to take it home and therefor can write down what you killed and what you didn't so you know how things turned out and can plan/rework your army with more info after the tourney.
- Not pointless modeling of nades the night before the tourney because you changed composition for the tournament and then ripping them off next week for the next one to allow for another scout, ect., ect.,

Cons:
- You use 4-10 sheets of paper per tourny.

Strimen wrote:
Pros:
- You can look at the list and know exactly what he has at any point in time without interrupting him while he is planning his strat or rolling dice.
- You get to take it home and therefor can write down what you killed and what you didn't so you know how things turned out and can plan/rework your army with more info after the tourney.
- Not pointless modeling of nades the night before the tourney because you changed composition for the tournament and then ripping them off next week for the next one to allow for another scout, ect., ect.,

Cons:
- You use 4-10 sheets of paper per tourny.

wy not ask for your list back after the match no sense in him keeping it win or lose.

All games i play i take two copies of my army list, one for me one for my opponent.
Before the game I take 5 minutes to discuss with my opponent what each unit is (even if it's quite obviously modelled), what ambiguous terrain counts as, etc.
"All fire warrior squads are equipped with all Pulse Rifles and photon grenades, the ones with the white helmets are Shas'ui's and have markerlights. All vehicles have the disruption pod upgrade, these hammerheads have Smart missiles and railguns, all those converted XV25 suits use the Vespid rules and all my old XV15 suits use the stealth suit rules". Makes for non confusion.



I find that with grenades, opponents are more likely to get annoyed/confused if you dont have the 'nades on your model, but they are using them in the game. On the other hand, if you do have the grenades modelled on and don't use them, the majority of oppenents won't mind.

Pregame discussions are smart, but weapons really need to be modeled properly. I'm shaking my head right now about Harkainos’ opponents who don’t bother modeling Sonic Blasters. That’s really not cool (unless it’s clearly stated at the beginning that he’s proxying while testing the unit). It would never fly in a tournament.

That isn't what I said. What I said is that I have never seen a Noise Marine who wasn't point out to have a Sonic Blaster.

What I mean is, my opponent has never said 'All of my Noise Marines are carrying bolters' - because that would be pointless. I am never suprised when they say 'My Noise Marines are carrying Sonic Blasters' regardless of how they are modeled. Are you?

I've seen them modelled both ways. I actually saw a guy who cut the bolter barrel off of all of his guns, so he simply could say it was a bolter (in one game) or a sonic weapon (in another) and because it was modeled (converted, even though slightly) it was legal. Pretty clever I thought.

Mannahnin wrote:Pregame discussions are smart, but weapons really need to be modeled properly. I'm shaking my head right now about Harkainos’ opponents who don’t bother modeling Sonic Blasters. That’s really not cool (unless it’s clearly stated at the beginning that he’s proxying while testing the unit). It would never fly in a tournament.

How would you interpret my Rogue Trader plastic Orks equipped with OOP ork versions of autocannons, hvy bolters, lascannons and such being used as Lootas? The OOP weapons really are odd and orky.

Provided you weren't also using similar looking and equipped guys as something like tankbusters, I'd be fine with it. If all the units with big shoulder-mounted heavy weapons are lootas, and there are no lootas without said weapons, to me, that's pretty clear.

dietrich wrote:Provided you weren't also using similar looking and equipped guys as something like tankbusters, I'd be fine with it.

Nope. Wouldn't do that. I wouldn't be able to keep track of things at that point.

Harkainos- Every Noise Marine I’ve ever faced armed with a Sonic Blaster either had the actual metal weapon, or a conversion visibly different from a bolter. And not just snipping off the barrel. The last guy I faced had replaced the barrels of his bolters with those big dragon-head tips for chaos predator lascannons.

Zip Napalm- consistency, as ever, is the key when you’re using “counts as”. As dietrich said, as long as you don’t have a totally different (rules) unit modelled the same way, it sounds right to me. Though some conversions of those guns (kind of like the new models) might be even nicer. Still, the old metal RT models with a nice mix of guns sound pretty WYSIWYG to me.

Harkainos wrote:What I mean is, my opponent has never said 'All of my Noise Marines are carrying bolters' - because that would be pointless. I am never suprised when they say 'My Noise Marines are carrying Sonic Blasters' regardless of how they are modeled. Are you?

I would be surprised if someone brought Bolter armed Noise Marines and said they were Sonic Blasters as Noise Marines come with Bolters standard. I'd like a visual clue that they are armed with something other than their base armament if they actually are.

who really cares about grenades? the odd melta bomb or tank busta bomb helps, but not 100% needed.

i would have a problem about playing noise marines with "counts as" sonic blasters unless they had some conversion (new stock and barrel, new clip, new body) anything is fine aslong as they have put effort into it rather than just saying they "count as"

One thing tho that miffs me about WYSIWYG is that some armies simply don't have the option to be bought for models armed a certain way.

For Space Marines, there is no excuse to not be able to field WYSIWYG, considering the number of models out there. For some though the standard kits dont come with all the parts you need (i know in fantasy, Chaos warriors don't come with great weapons or halberds in their plastic kit)

Basically, just be consistent to avoid confusion.
If, for example, you happen to have a number of IG sergeants modelled in exactly the same way, but you want their guns to represent something different, lets say you just paint the guns a brightly obvious different color. All the guns that are red are laspistols, all the guns that are blue are plasma pistols.
Just make sure you are consistent: as long as you dont have a laspistol somewhere in the army that is painted green, or a boltpistol that is painted red: consistency is the key to avoiding confusion, and avoiding confusion is what WYSIWYG is all about.

Meh, no grenades visible, claim they've just been thrown. Opponent wants proof of this, pull out a hammer and ruler and measure the distance to one of his models.

Trasvi-Bolt pistols on Marines????? Whole armies are now not WYSIWYG. Some of the models in the boxes have Chainswords!

CSM-It took GW months to get out the Sonic Blaster upgrade kit, although I would like people to stick something on the nose of their ordinary bolters if they wanted sonic blasters.

And what was I supposed to do with my Las/Plas razorbacks under 4th edition? Not that they're worth anythng now...

writting it out first is great. me and my brother (whom i usually play against) do the same thing. we basically wrote out a bunch of different army lists and use those. not only is it much faster for set up but same deal, i can read what hes got while hes moving and all that fun-ness